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Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: Try assuming that time doesn't exist and you are keeping track of change referenced to the rotation of the earth on its axis plus earth's orbit around the sun. What is different? The units. Not even that. It would still be a day and a year. Nothing would change if time doesn't exist. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Jim Kelley wrote:
I think bats existed before man. They seem to have pretty good perception of time. Bats have very good perceptions of change and movement. No perception of time required. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Roger Conroy wrote:
You guys are ducking the question - Can you define "Changes" without referring to time? Referring to God doesn't prove the existence of God except as a concept in the human mind. Referring to time doesn't prove the existence of time except as a concept in the human mind. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Cecil:
Now you told 'em that, they will know we can TALK about "God" (the concept) without, necessarily, BELIEVING in "God." You are as bad as Richard, you spoil the fun!!!! wink Warmest regards, John "Cecil Moore" wrote in message ... | Roger Conroy wrote: | You guys are ducking the question - Can you define "Changes" without | referring to time? | | Referring to God doesn't prove the existence of God except | as a concept in the human mind. Referring to time doesn't | prove the existence of time except as a concept in the human | mind. | -- | 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp | | | ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- | http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups | ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
"Cecil Moore" wrote in message ... Jim Kelley wrote: I think bats existed before man. They seem to have pretty good perception of time. Bats have very good perceptions of change and movement. No perception of time required. -- 73, Cecil Ah, but they echo range. (Time.) Only way you ever nail one is with a tennis racket. They "hear" the racket itself and miss the strings. This has GOT to be one of the dumbest threads John Smith has ever started. W4ZCB W4ZCB |
Harold E. Johnson wrote:
"Cecil Moore" wrote: Bats have very good perceptions of change and movement. No perception of time required. Ah, but they echo range. And they were doing so long before the concepts of time, perception, echo, and range were invented. Those things are part of the malleable human model of reality and probably do not even exist in the bat's hard-wired model of reality. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
On Mon, 02 May 2005 22:35:39 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote: Jim Kelley wrote: I think bats existed before man. They seem to have pretty good perception of time. Bats have very good perceptions of change and movement. No perception of time required. Dear Cecil, Depends upon what you really mean by "perception". I don't think "perception" has to mean that they consciously think about it, any more than a human has to consciously think about it. In both cases, animals and humans are able to make inferences from listening to echoes. They can and do infer that the reflections are further away when the elapsed time for the echo is greater. The big difference is that bats don't make such a big deal about RADAR. Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html |
W9DMK (Robert Lay) wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: Bats have very good perceptions of change and movement. No perception of time required. Depends upon what you really mean by "perception". I mean there is no need to perceive time. Change is all that needs to be perceived. We perceive what we label as time by correlating changes to each other. The perceived lapsed time between the sending of a sound and the receiving of an echo is simply the correlation of external and internal changes by some sophisticated biology. One of the earliest Greek philosophers, Parmenides, maintained that there was neither time nor motion, only change. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Harold E. Johnson wrote:
This has GOT to be one of the dumbest threads John Smith has ever started. He may have started the thread but the idea is presented quite well in "The End of Time - The Next Revolution in Physics", by Julian Barbour, (c) 1999, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-511729-8 Dropping the concept of time resolves all the apparent contradictions within quantum physics, e.g. entanglement and effects preceding causes. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Cecil Moore wrote: Dropping the concept of time resolves all the apparent contradictions within quantum physics, e.g. entanglement and effects preceding causes. So does Faith-Based Physics! ;^) - Mike KB3EIA - |
Cecil Moore wrote: Harold E. Johnson wrote: This has GOT to be one of the dumbest threads John Smith has ever started. He may have started the thread but the idea is presented quite well in "The End of Time - The Next Revolution in Physics", by Julian Barbour, (c) 1999, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-511729-8 Dropping the concept of time resolves all the apparent contradictions within quantum physics, e.g. entanglement and effects preceding causes. Oy! Now there is a way to solve problems! I have not read the book, so cannot comment with authority, but it seems Julian is in a hurry to throw away time in order to solve problems that can or will be solved without tossing time. The amount of disciplines that "time" cuts across are many. The concept has served us well for a long long time. The "answering" of quantum effects issues by throwing out time will probably create many new problems with just about everything else. My curiosity is piqued. I'll have to read the book. - Mike KB3EIA - |
Cecil:
Thanks for that book/author--I was unaware of it!!!! You look away for a few years--someone writes a new book!!! grin Warmest regards, John "Cecil Moore" wrote in message ... | Harold E. Johnson wrote: | This has GOT to | be one of the dumbest threads John Smith has ever started. | | He may have started the thread but the idea is presented | quite well in "The End of Time - The Next Revolution in | Physics", by Julian Barbour, (c) 1999, Oxford University | Press, ISBN 0-19-511729-8 Dropping the concept of time | resolves all the apparent contradictions within quantum | physics, e.g. entanglement and effects preceding causes. | -- | 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp | | | ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- | http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups | ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Cecil:
All this chat made me rethink a lot too, perhaps there are models of your "dimensions" out there--black holes. And, these are portals into one/some of those dimensions--and the "end of our universe" is nothing more than the shell of a black hole--and we can break though that "shielding" with sufficient energy. I know, that is a desperate reach, but those black holes can certainly be used as a "mental model" to draw pictures of something--and I haven't heard of anyone constructing a "believable" model from them yet!!! Warmest regards, John "John Smith" wrote in message ... | Cecil: | | Thanks for that book/author--I was unaware of it!!!! | You look away for a few years--someone writes a new book!!! grin | | Warmest regards, | John | | "Cecil Moore" wrote in message | ... || Harold E. Johnson wrote: || This has GOT to || be one of the dumbest threads John Smith has ever started. || || He may have started the thread but the idea is presented || quite well in "The End of Time - The Next Revolution in || Physics", by Julian Barbour, (c) 1999, Oxford University || Press, ISBN 0-19-511729-8 Dropping the concept of time || resolves all the apparent contradictions within quantum || physics, e.g. entanglement and effects preceding causes. || -- || 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp || || || ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet | News==---- || http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 | Newsgroups || ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- | | |
Cecil Moore wrote: Jim Kelley wrote: I think bats existed before man. They seem to have pretty good perception of time. Bats have very good perceptions of change and movement. No perception of time required. Perception of change.....hmmmm. What are the units of change? In other words, how would 'change' itself be quantified'? 73, ac6xg |
Cecil Moore wrote: Harold E. Johnson wrote: "Cecil Moore" wrote: Bats have very good perceptions of change and movement. No perception of time required. Ah, but they echo range. And they were doing so long before the concepts of time, perception, echo, and range were invented. Those things are part of the malleable human model of reality and probably do not even exist in the bat's hard-wired model of reality. Evidence that time is not just a concept of man. 73 de ac6xg |
Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: Jim Kelley wrote: I think bats existed before man. They seem to have pretty good perception of time. Bats have very good perceptions of change and movement. No perception of time required. Perception of change.....hmmmm. What are the units of change? In other words, how would 'change' itself be quantified'? Perhaps we could call it hiib ( or any other made up word) Whatever it is, it would seem a lot like time! 8^) - Mike KB3EIA - |
He may have started the thread but the idea is presented
quite well in "The End of Time - The Next Revolution in Physics", by Julian Barbour, (c) 1999, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-511729-8 Dropping the concept of time resolves all the apparent contradictions within quantum physics, e.g. entanglement and effects preceding causes. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Skimmed that several years ago when alerted by a friend. Despite Barbour's credentials, I didn't think much of it then either. W4ZCB |
John Smith wrote:
I know, that is a desperate reach, but those black holes can certainly be used as a "mental model" to draw pictures of something--and I haven't heard of anyone constructing a "believable" model from them yet!!! Consider that our entire universe may have been just one of a large number of black holes and the only difference is that ours reached critical mass and exploded. All of existence may contain many bubble universes, some even colliding with each other. I once read that there is a section of our universe out near the edge where the objects are blue shifted indicating something very large coming at us and it is only about ten billion light years away. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
On Tue, 03 May 2005 09:11:12 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote: One of the earliest Greek philosophers, Parmenides, maintained that there was neither time nor motion, only change. Dear Cecil, I'm not sure that I agree with Parmenides - it depends on how he answers, "change with respect to what?" Unless we can make a case for change with respect to time, poor Mrs. Doppler is going to find it more and more difficult to feed her children :-) Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html |
Jim Kelley wrote:
Perception of change.....hmmmm. What are the units of change? In other words, how would 'change' itself be quantified'? Change is binary. Either something changes or it doesn't. Here's a question for you. Does time itself flow or are we flowing through time? If we could travel at the speed of light, would we be synchronized with the flow of time? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
Jim Kelley wrote:
Evidence that time is not just a concept of man. If time never existed, a bat would function exactly the same. How is that evidence of anything. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
Cecil Moore wrote: Here's a question for you. Does time itself flow or are we flowing through time? If we could travel at the speed of light, would we be synchronized with the flow of time? Even more importantly, how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? ;-) ac6xg |
Cecil Moore wrote: If time never existed, a bat would function exactly the same. And with that piece of speculative fiction out of the way, we now return to our regularly scheduled antenna discussions. (he said, optimistically) ac6xg....out |
Units? Perhaps "Atom-Units of change."
Depening on if ya move just one atom, or a planet-full of 'em? Regards, John "Jim Kelley" wrote in message ... | | | Cecil Moore wrote: | Jim Kelley wrote: | | I think bats existed before man. They seem to have pretty good | perception of time. | | | Bats have very good perceptions of change and movement. | No perception of time required. | | Perception of change.....hmmmm. What are the units of change? In other | words, how would 'change' itself be quantified'? | | 73, ac6xg | | |
Ohh, wait!!!!
Someone already thought of that!!! Darn, the "Atomic Clock!" grin Regards, John "John Smith" wrote in message ... | Units? Perhaps "Atom-Units of change." | Depening on if ya move just one atom, or a planet-full of 'em? | | Regards, | John | | "Jim Kelley" wrote in message | ... || || || Cecil Moore wrote: || Jim Kelley wrote: || || I think bats existed before man. They seem to have pretty good || perception of time. || || || Bats have very good perceptions of change and movement. || No perception of time required. || || Perception of change.....hmmmm. What are the units of change? In other || words, how would 'change' itself be quantified'? || || 73, ac6xg || || | | |
Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: If time never existed, a bat would function exactly the same. And with that piece of speculative fiction out of the way, ... I can prove that is a true statement, Jim. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
Well, we certainly have learned something here, and that was the point this
all began.... "If everyone can't even agree on time--we are going to even have a bit more problem with other "myths." Truth is, if you choose to believe in "time", you do no harm, if you choose to believe in a christian "God", you do no harm, if you choose to believe in "radio theory", you do no harm... Personally, Santa gets my vote!!! HEY! Wait a minutes, that's me, or at least that is what my grown kids think!!! grin So, we proceed.... hopefully with patience and understanding for such as the like of me--a newbie... Regards, John "John Smith" wrote in message ... | Let me give you my "Mental Model." | | There is no such thing as "cold." | There is no such thing as "heat." (there is infrared radiation--i.e. a | frequency(s) of vibration of atoms) | Cold is the absence of heat, absolute cold (absolute zero) is a single | measurement of one state of heat (vibration/movement of atomic | particles)--NONE! | Heat (hot) is really a measurement of the state of exicted atomic/sub-atomic | particles movement, and of that movement producing "heat" through the | friction produced by the movement of these atomic particles... | | Next, there is no such thing as "time!" Time is simply a measurement of | movement! Indeed, our time is based on the rotation of the sun and | planets... (atomic time on the decay of a radioactive substance--but again, | physical change and movement!) | | I realize that specific "mental models" have been created, taught, adopted | and followed (too religiously if you ask me!) for discussing and describing | "radio." However, most of these are far from "real things!" | | Warmest regards, | John | | |
On Sun, 01 May 2005 20:39:57 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote: Roger Conroy wrote: Can you define "changes" without reference to time? My dog cannot tell time but knows when to eat by the changes in her feelings from not hungry to hungry. Time is just an artifact of man's mental model of reality. Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes alone with no reference to time. I hadn't thought of this for a lot of years, but the first definition of it was, "Time is a measure of change; if nothing changed, you couldn't assign time to it." That reminds me of something I caught my Dad on one time. Daylight savings time had just arrived and we set our clocks forward one hour thus losing one hour of sleep. I said, "Pity the poor birds who have to wake up an hour earlier and fly around in the dark." My Dad said, "Yeah, poor birds, - - - hey, wait a minute!" It started early with you, huh? :-) |
On Mon, 02 May 2005 00:34:03 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: Time is the description of the interval between happenings. Do all things happen concurrently? I agree that time is the description of the interval between happenings. What I don't accept is that time is some real dimension existing completely independent of human concepts. Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes alone with no reference to time. That's hard to prove one way or the other. I don't recall clocks being part of the fossil record. :-) Sure there were -- growth ridges on clams, tree rings, etc. :-) |
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:13:33 -0400, Mike Coslo
wrote: Cecil Moore wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: Time is very real to us mortals, Cecil. So is God (whether He exists in reality or not). Question is: Did time exist before man? It is an interesting question. Certainly life forms that presumably do *not* have consciousness, such as bacteria, have a beginning, a being and an end. So is time dependent upon a life form possessing sentience? That's pretty close to the tree falling in the forest bit. hile you're at it, if your in Socrates' dreamless sleep and can't perceive time, has time passed? If a sentient being such as man is not there to invent the concept of time, do all those constructs that have a beginning and end cease to exist? A year is simply movement, once around the sun. I've been here for about 40 billion miles around the sun. Is that time or simply distance? Years are constructs of humanity. It is simply a convenient method of marking things that *happen*, such as the position of the stars, which as it turns out , is a manifestation of the period in which the earth returns to some initial observation point. No doubt it is similar to our using base 10 math because we happen to have 10 fingers. Am I winding down because of the years or simply, like my '96 pickup, because of the miles? Entropy, My dear Cecil, entropy! More importantly, as the great sage Homer Simpson asked: "Can God make a burrito so hot that he can't eat it?" - Mike KB3EIA - |
On Sun, 01 May 2005 20:51:12 -0500, Tom Ring
wrote: Cecil Moore wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: That time occurs is not all that arguable to me. Our measurements of it is a modifiable thing tho'. Try assuming that time doesn't exist and you are keeping track of change referenced to the rotation of the earth on its axis plus earth's orbit around the sun. What is different? Is that like what happened when we went from Cycles Per Second to Hertz? Yes, and it still hertz. :-) |
wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: I don't recall clocks being part of the fossil record. :-) Sure there were -- growth ridges on clams, tree rings, etc. :-) Those are merely reflections of changes in the amount of sunlight. They would cease to exist if the sun changed and went dark. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
Are humans the only beings that "create" time?
I was out for my lunchtime jog today, around the golf course. I was watching birds take off and land in the breezy conditions. It was interesting to watch the subtle adjustments they would make, especially when coming in to land. You could see them adjusting their wings in several ways to send themselves to where they wanted to land. They would compensate for wind gusts (and lack of wind). Point is, I cannot come up with any way in which they can cope with the randomness of the wind and land in the palce they desire without having an acute sense of time. They obviously are not counting off seconds or whatever. But they seem to land where they want to, and must be predicting it by their flight adjustments. - Mike KB3EIA - |
On Thu, 05 May 2005 07:30:21 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote: wrote: Cecil Moore wrote: I don't recall clocks being part of the fossil record. :-) Sure there were -- growth ridges on clams, tree rings, etc. :-) Those are merely reflections of changes in the amount of sunlight. They would cease to exist if the sun changed and went dark. As, I suspect, would the organisms involved, no? |
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