Gene Fuller wrote:
Art,

Think again about what you wrote.

"I have oft times changed a single element into two closely coupled
elements and where one is short and one is long relative to a driven
element."

Why would you mis-attribute your application of standard terminology
to
a new experimental situation as a "poor translation"?

The appropriate terminology for the various elements is generally
pretty
clear from the physical design and performance of a Yagi antenna.
When
your experiments go beyond the original design you are on your own.

73,
Gene
W4SZ


wrote:
Seems to me Cecil that the terms "Reflector" and
"Director" are very poor words to describe antenna
elements for an HF array .
I have oft times changed a single element into two
closely coupled elements and where one is short
and one is long relative to a driven element
I wonder who was the first to assign these terms
Or was it a poor translation from Japanese ( Uda and Yagi) ?
Regards
Art

wrote:
I wonder who was the first to assign these terms
Or was it a poor translation from Japanese ( Uda and Yagi) ?

Please note that John didn't mention Yagi's. He only
mentioned "beams". :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Yes, I see that Cecil, but I suspect he is not a ham
and thus would not know the difference between
different arrays. But if he is really looking for "Aliens"
he may well be looking in the right direction but his LED's
have a skewed correct "reflector".
With respect to your two element example you stated that
they were both driven. When coupled correctly it is only
necessary to feed one element in an array and allow the
coupled element to be of similar phase and if possible
of a higher current flow to give you that 3 db additive
advantage . Plus single digit elevation angle for max gain
even tho the array is fed at 1 WL height.( 20 metres)
I could send you actual model details if it is of interest.
Or a photo if that interests you more.
Regards

Art




"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I wonder who was the first to assign these terms
Or was it a poor translation from Japanese ( Uda and Yagi) ?

Please note that John didn't mention Yagi's. He only
mentioned "beams". :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Well Cecil:

You know me and my fondness for "tweaking" electrical lengths grin... I
suspect it is more than possible to have 'em the same length, and indeed,
you seen the folded 1 wave monopole I played with, it did exhibit side
"nulls."

Now, as to if the gain of the beam you point out is exactly equal or better,
I doubt--as opposed to one being longer/shorter director/reflector
(remember, I still ponder the ethers part in all of this--and NONE of our
formulas take it into account)... but besides all of this...

I JUST HAVEN'T SEEN ONE!!!!

And, you know I am a hopeless "Assumer"--I dare to assume if it were such a
great idea, I'd see a bunch---but then, I am open to a discovery here!!!

Come on Cecil, with so many after my scalp--I can't afford losing any hair
to you!!! grin

I gotta get some work done here--I am turning off message notification... I
will read/respond to your come-back later... grin

Warmest regards,
John
--
Sit down the six-pack!!! STEP AWAY!!! ...and go do something...

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
| John Smith wrote:
|
| Well, everything stated may be true... but I have never seen a beam
where
| you would confuse the reflectors from the directors by physical size...
if
| in doubt and you wish to confirm this--just look up! Warmest regards,
John
|
| Given a beam with two identical driven elements, which is the
| reflector and which is the director? :-)
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
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"John Smith" bravely wrote to "All" (11 May 05 09:21:00)
--- on the heady topic of " Reflector Vs Director"


It's all about the frequency, physical length, and spacing...


JS Reply-To: "John Smith"
JS Xref: aeinews rec.radio.amateur.antenna:30111

JS Well, everything stated may be true... but I have never seen a beam
JS where you would confuse the reflectors from the directors by physical
JS size... if in doubt and you wish to confirm this--just look up!

JS Warmest regards,
JS John
JS --
JS Sit down the six-pack!!! STEP AWAY!!! ...and go do something...
JS " wrote in
JS message news:u85ge.72716$c24.9252@attbi_s72...
JS | When modelling close spaced element antenma
JS | assemblies it is possible that some elements are
JS | physically longer than the "driven" element.
JS | Is the length of a element sufficient enough to
JS | declare that element a " reflector" or are there
JS | other caveates involved.( i.e. phase)
JS | As background to this question I would point
JS | out that that it is possible to have two closed
JS | spaced (positioned) elements one of which is
JS | shorter and one of which is longer than
JS | the "driven " element, this combination being
JS | placed either forward or to the rear of the
JS | "driven " element.
JS | Regards
JS | Art

.... There's always free cheese in a mousetrap.

Oh yes, the important spacing--we agree on that alright (the rest too--I see
that physical/electrical length as important to--but "electrical length" and
"magnetic field shape" are related on an almost linear scale), but what is
"in" that "spacing"--now there is the nut of this... that "magnetic field"
is not a "proton projection" and my antenna does not "glow"--and that
"space" ain't no wire--or is it?

Warmest regards,
John
--
Sit down the six-pack!!! STEP AWAY!!! ...and go do something...

"Asimov" wrote in message
...
| "John Smith" bravely wrote to "All" (11 May 05 09:21:00)
| --- on the heady topic of " Reflector Vs Director"
|
|
| It's all about the frequency, physical length, and spacing...
|
|
| JS Reply-To: "John Smith"
| JS Xref: aeinews rec.radio.amateur.antenna:30111
|
| JS Well, everything stated may be true... but I have never seen a beam
| JS where you would confuse the reflectors from the directors by physical
| JS size... if in doubt and you wish to confirm this--just look up!
|
| JS Warmest regards,
| JS John
| JS --
| JS Sit down the six-pack!!! STEP AWAY!!! ...and go do something...
| JS " wrote in
| JS message news:u85ge.72716$c24.9252@attbi_s72...
| JS | When modelling close spaced element antenma
| JS | assemblies it is possible that some elements are
| JS | physically longer than the "driven" element.
| JS | Is the length of a element sufficient enough to
| JS | declare that element a " reflector" or are there
| JS | other caveates involved.( i.e. phase)
| JS | As background to this question I would point
| JS | out that that it is possible to have two closed
| JS | spaced (positioned) elements one of which is
| JS | shorter and one of which is longer than
| JS | the "driven " element, this combination being
| JS | placed either forward or to the rear of the
| JS | "driven " element.
| JS | Regards
| JS | Art
|
| ... There's always free cheese in a mousetrap.
|

John Smith wrote:
"Oh yes, the important spacing--"

Proximity determines induction in a parasiteic element. Far from an
energy source, the parasite captures little energy and re-radiates
little. The mutual impedance between elements is small when spacing is
large.

A parasite must be nearly resonant to become excited. Behavior is
similar to a reed in a resonant-reed frequency indicator. The resonant
reed is strongly excited. Other reeds are little excited at the wrong
frequency. An out of tune antenna element has its current impeded by
reactance. A resonant element has no reactance.

Detuning a parasitic element is slight if excitation is to be
maintained, but it is enough to make the element reflect or direct as
desired.

Magnetic fields are naturally produced around current-carrying
conductors and around displacement currents too. Electric and magnetic
force lines are mutually perpendicular. In space, the plane containing
crossed electric and magnetic lines is called the wave front. Travel
direction of the front is perpendicular to the crossed electric and
magnetic lines.

Wave theory accurately predicted radio behavior before anyone thought of
acceleration causing photon emissions.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

If I lay two marbles on a flat sheet on a bed, and their spacing is close--I
take my finger and push one marble down into the material of the bed--so as
it deforms or "warps" the shape of the bedding, the other marble is "pulled"
towards it--if the two marbles are far apart--the second is unaffected...

If ether has a property similar to that bed, I can warp that ether and cause
objects to be affected--in relationship to their proximity to the "warp" I
am causing...

If I place a piece of paper over a magnet--gently sprinkle iron powder over
the paper--I see lines--claimed to be a "magnetic field"....

.... do you think these "lines" are photons (waves?)shooting from one end of
the magnet to the other (of course they would actually be lying outside the
metal of the magnet in a "static" state).... or is this iron powder a
"warping" of the ether I am looking at?

Warmest regards,
John
--
Sit down the six-pack!!! STEP AWAY!!! ...and go do something...

"Richard Harrison" wrote in message
...
| John Smith wrote:
| "Oh yes, the important spacing--"
|
| Proximity determines induction in a parasiteic element. Far from an
| energy source, the parasite captures little energy and re-radiates
| little. The mutual impedance between elements is small when spacing is
| large.
|
| A parasite must be nearly resonant to become excited. Behavior is
| similar to a reed in a resonant-reed frequency indicator. The resonant
| reed is strongly excited. Other reeds are little excited at the wrong
| frequency. An out of tune antenna element has its current impeded by
| reactance. A resonant element has no reactance.
|
| Detuning a parasitic element is slight if excitation is to be
| maintained, but it is enough to make the element reflect or direct as
| desired.
|
| Magnetic fields are naturally produced around current-carrying
| conductors and around displacement currents too. Electric and magnetic
| force lines are mutually perpendicular. In space, the plane containing
| crossed electric and magnetic lines is called the wave front. Travel
| direction of the front is perpendicular to the crossed electric and
| magnetic lines.
|
| Wave theory accurately predicted radio behavior before anyone thought of
| acceleration causing photon emissions.
|
| Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI
|

"John Smith" bravely wrote to "All" (11 May 05 22:25:13)
--- on the heady topic of " Reflector Vs Director"

The only thing I know is that an antenna is a tricky compromise
between a myriad of physical constants that make it up. Simply
changing the dimensions of an element will affect the optimum spacing
for maximum gain. But then so too having maximum gain as a goal will
often reduce bandwidth. So some compromise to gain/bandwidth must be
made to have a real antenna at the end of the process. Many such
mutually defeating compromises must be juggled with to achieve this.
Then, as if this wasn't enough, one must add the interaction with the
environment, thinks like weather, proximity to objects, noise, etc.

A*s*i*m*o*v


JS Reply-To: "John Smith"
JS Xref: aeinews rec.radio.amateur.antenna:30174

JS Oh yes, the important spacing--we agree on that alright (the rest
JS too--I see that physical/electrical length as important to--but
JS "electrical length" and "magnetic field shape" are related on an
JS almost linear scale), but what is "in" that "spacing"--now there is
JS the nut of this... that "magnetic field" is not a "proton projection"
JS and my antenna does not "glow"--and that "space" ain't no wire--or is
JS it?

.... Children come from God. He can't stand the noise either.

Yes, I see this as "proof" (at the very least--it causes me to suspect) that
we are missing and ignoring some variable(s) which makes this all
overly-difficult... sounds to me you are noticing we need a "unified
antenna theory."

If so, I agree... and I certainly don't offer myself as anything more than
one who notices this--no answers--just questions....

Warmest regards,
John
--
Marbles can be used in models with excellent results! However, if forced
to keep using all of mine up... I may end up at a disadvantage... I seem
to have misplaced some!!!


"Asimov" wrote in message
...
| "John Smith" bravely wrote to "All" (11 May 05 22:25:13)
| --- on the heady topic of " Reflector Vs Director"
|
| The only thing I know is that an antenna is a tricky compromise
| between a myriad of physical constants that make it up. Simply
| changing the dimensions of an element will affect the optimum spacing
| for maximum gain. But then so too having maximum gain as a goal will
| often reduce bandwidth. So some compromise to gain/bandwidth must be
| made to have a real antenna at the end of the process. Many such
| mutually defeating compromises must be juggled with to achieve this.
| Then, as if this wasn't enough, one must add the interaction with the
| environment, thinks like weather, proximity to objects, noise, etc.
|
| A*s*i*m*o*v
|
|
| JS Reply-To: "John Smith"
| JS Xref: aeinews rec.radio.amateur.antenna:30174
|
| JS Oh yes, the important spacing--we agree on that alright (the rest
| JS too--I see that physical/electrical length as important to--but
| JS "electrical length" and "magnetic field shape" are related on an
| JS almost linear scale), but what is "in" that "spacing"--now there is
| JS the nut of this... that "magnetic field" is not a "proton
projection"
| JS and my antenna does not "glow"--and that "space" ain't no wire--or is
| JS it?
|
| ... Children come from God. He can't stand the noise either.
|