I'm glad you finally see it all my way.
:-)

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
There is no Object Orientated Assembly Language (by definition)--it is the
way you write the assembly code which will either make it OOP
specification
compliant, or not--I was lucky, I naturally wrote code that way, when it
made/makes sense... from the start I seen myself showing up with a
briefcase
full of cdroms, all containing code from past projects, and written with
procedure/function calls, containing data which was appropriate for each,
using NO global data (well, sometimes ya gotta), appropriate use of
dynamic
and static .dll calls, so as to be sane, etc, etc... and constructing
whole,
new programs from what has already been built with highly structured
code...

This is all OOP is--however, the "Pseudo-Intellectuals" immediately start
banding about such terms, and do not understand that these terms are based
on very simple principals--and that one does NOT need an "Object
Orientated
Language" to create such code--and yes, except for all data having to be
global in the past, in Perl, you could have always written OOP in Perl if
you had chosen (for the most part, that has all changed, now you can keep
data and variables local)--sometimes, I still choose not to...

Java is a scripting language which can be "compiled", it is not a good
language--it is popular with scriptkiddies (black hats) which think "C
code"
is difficult for others to understand--it is "C Syntax" and I am writing
my
memoirs in "C" !!!! grin

In the industry we watch out for people showing up and using "OOP" as they
would George Bushes' name, or as a holy mantra--it shows they are either
fresh out of college, or "Weekend Programmers", or worse, scriptkiddies...

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message
.. .
Perl is good at what its designed for - text manipulation and report
generation.
And as they say - its also known as the Swiss-Army Chain Saw of
languages.

To answer the question how is Java and the OO-languages better than
Cobol
and the procedural languages.
You'll have to get into the Object-oriented way of thinking
(and it was not an easy paradigm shift for me)
Java 'grows on you' (some say 'like a mold')
at first its ok, because the syntax is easy enough.
Then you get into inheritance and Polymorphism and the other OO concepts
its a different way of thinking about programming.

google "Thinking in Java" or "Thinking in C++" by Bruce Eckel for a
little
more insight into the OO-way.



"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hal:

LOL! Years ago I can remember looking at perl and asking, "WHAT THE
H3LL
IS
THAT?"--now it looks like my grocery list, simple--but I get your
point...

However, how is java or "C++" any better, after cobol, basic and
pascal--then seeing Dennis Richies' little project (A, B and "C"), I
asked,
"WHAT THE H3LL IS THAT?" grin

... however, point well taken...
Mr. Dennis Richies REAL homepage:
http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/

Warmest regards,
John

Hal:

Too bad really--makes for a boring discussion...

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message
...
I'm glad you finally see it all my way.
:-)

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
There is no Object Orientated Assembly Language (by definition)--it is
the
way you write the assembly code which will either make it OOP
specification
compliant, or not--I was lucky, I naturally wrote code that way, when it
made/makes sense... from the start I seen myself showing up with a
briefcase
full of cdroms, all containing code from past projects, and written with
procedure/function calls, containing data which was appropriate for each,
using NO global data (well, sometimes ya gotta), appropriate use of
dynamic
and static .dll calls, so as to be sane, etc, etc... and constructing
whole,
new programs from what has already been built with highly structured
code...

This is all OOP is--however, the "Pseudo-Intellectuals" immediately start
banding about such terms, and do not understand that these terms are
based
on very simple principals--and that one does NOT need an "Object
Orientated
Language" to create such code--and yes, except for all data having to be
global in the past, in Perl, you could have always written OOP in Perl if
you had chosen (for the most part, that has all changed, now you can keep
data and variables local)--sometimes, I still choose not to...

Java is a scripting language which can be "compiled", it is not a good
language--it is popular with scriptkiddies (black hats) which think "C
code"
is difficult for others to understand--it is "C Syntax" and I am writing
my
memoirs in "C" !!!! grin

In the industry we watch out for people showing up and using "OOP" as
they
would George Bushes' name, or as a holy mantra--it shows they are either
fresh out of college, or "Weekend Programmers", or worse,
scriptkiddies...

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message
.. .
Perl is good at what its designed for - text manipulation and report
generation.
And as they say - its also known as the Swiss-Army Chain Saw of
languages.

To answer the question how is Java and the OO-languages better than
Cobol
and the procedural languages.
You'll have to get into the Object-oriented way of thinking
(and it was not an easy paradigm shift for me)
Java 'grows on you' (some say 'like a mold')
at first its ok, because the syntax is easy enough.
Then you get into inheritance and Polymorphism and the other OO
concepts
its a different way of thinking about programming.

google "Thinking in Java" or "Thinking in C++" by Bruce Eckel for a
little
more insight into the OO-way.



"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hal:

LOL! Years ago I can remember looking at perl and asking, "WHAT THE
H3LL
IS
THAT?"--now it looks like my grocery list, simple--but I get your
point...

However, how is java or "C++" any better, after cobol, basic and
pascal--then seeing Dennis Richies' little project (A, B and "C"), I
asked,
"WHAT THE H3LL IS THAT?" grin

... however, point well taken...
Mr. Dennis Richies REAL homepage:
http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/

Warmest regards,
John

Saw an article where Google uses 3 languages routinely: C++, Java, and
Python.
(All 3 are object-oriented)
Special permission was needed for other languages
I think one reason for the OO movement revolves around the cost of
development.
Large projects -
with many developers of varying degrees of competence -
are easier to manage
using OO design.

If someone gives a coder a job like:
"write an instance method for xyz class which will take 2 int args and
return a abc class..."
he can go right to work. -and -
someone else can be coding a different method for the same class.

regardless of the language
when you code
you'll find some patterns
we all use
over and over
the difference is
syntax

Hal:

Java is buried in a lot of webpages... when it first got big use... I kinda
liked all the flashy visual stuff it could do...
.... then it started bogging down net speed, then the scriptkiddies started
finding evil ways to hijack your browser and "trick" you into clicking on
buttons which put bad code on your machine with Java--I dumped Java
then--now I have run XP w/SP2 with SUN Java enabled and not been bothered
with the malicious code--but once burned--twice warned--and I turn Java off
most of the time... some forms demand it...

I am not against scripting languages, and perl is one of the first I
learned--but since I write in C, Java is no problem--but I don't like the
OOP part, it forces a lot of predefined functions/procedures and methods on
you... luckily, we don't do any Java at the shop--it is too slow for our
implementations of encryption/decryption... sometimes assembly is barely
able to manage the tasks in real time... and that is important with
voice/video communications...

Are you a programmer Hal? And if so, what is your language(s) of choice?
And, are you a hobby programmer or have to try to get enough money to eat
from your efforts (like me grin) ? My most fulfilling use of code is for
personal use... I'd really quit my job if I didn't need the booze, cigs and
loose women (well, something like that grin)

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message
. ..
Saw an article where Google uses 3 languages routinely: C++, Java, and
Python.
(All 3 are object-oriented)
Special permission was needed for other languages
I think one reason for the OO movement revolves around the cost of
development.
Large projects -
with many developers of varying degrees of competence -
are easier to manage
using OO design.

If someone gives a coder a job like:
"write an instance method for xyz class which will take 2 int args and
return a abc class..."
he can go right to work. -and -
someone else can be coding a different method for the same class.

regardless of the language
when you code
you'll find some patterns
we all use
over and over
the difference is
syntax

Dave C:

Gee, that is too bad... probably quells diversity in what is available to
Mac users... bummer man!

But, you remind me how lucky windows users are with the IBM open platform of
the PC hardware and how anyone can pick up a book, learn a bit of
programming and we can yet have another alternative to the many we have to
pick from...
I do feel for you Mac users, how about putting Linux on your Mac box? That
would open up new horizons for you... grin

Warmest regards,
John

"DaveC" wrote in message
news.net...
On Tue, 24 May 2005 12:05:21 -0700, John Smith wrote
(in article ):

Many here seem to be hung up on .pdf files, adobes pdf creator is
expensive.

Here is a utility which installs itself like a printer, all you do is
choose
to print from any windows application, choose this printer driver and it
will "print" a .pdf file of any word, notepad, etc. And you end up with
a
.pdf of the work in question...

Been built into Mac OS X for quite awhile, now. It's a little button on
the
print dialog box that says "Save as PDF". Anything you can print, you can
save as PDF file.
--
Please, no "Go Google this" replies. I wouldn't
ask a question here if I hadn't done that already.

DaveC

This is an invalid return address
Please reply in the news group

Yes, running one OS on top of another can be done in all worlds (all
platforms), but, why trash speed and efficiency just to do some weird
mechanizations?
But, sure might impress some "Good Ole CB Buddies" (some hams too I
suppose.) grin

Warmest regards,
John

"DaveC" wrote in message
news.net...
On Fri, 27 May 2005 23:45:11 -0700, John Smith wrote
(in article ):

I do feel for you Mac users, how about putting Linux on your Mac box?
That
would open up new horizons for you... grin

Thanks for the suggestion. But no need. Many 'NIX applications can run
under
OS X, or so I understand.

Many 'NIXers are turning to Macs (Mac OS X, that is) as a platform for
their
apps.
--
Please, no "Go Google this" replies. I wouldn't
ask a question here if I hadn't done that already.

DaveC

This is an invalid return address
Please reply in the news group

Yep, Applets gave Java a head start.
But now I don't think applets are being used very much.
Full blown applications (like Star Office and 'Open Office.org)
is the typical Java program now.
Now everyone is trying to get their programs web-enabled.
Yep - I'm a programmer. and a student - and a teacher
The more I learn, the more I learn that there's more to learn.
My ignorance becomes more obvious to me as I learn.
The push now is to make legacy apps web-accessable -
or to replace legacy code with web apps.
Java servlets and Java Server Pages (As opposed to Applets) seems to be the
wave of the future.
I don't have a favorite language until I see the environment and
requirements.
But I do have 'least favorites' (C# and dot-net in general)
your description of scriptkiddies causing you to 'dump java' is a shame

But It still sounds like you're getting JavaScript confused with Java.
Since you program in c, it makes sense that you don't like OO.
Object-Oriented programming is quite a departure from the procedural world
of c.
Its a different programming philosophy.
And to top it off - they're coming with a new one called "Aspect-Oriented
Programming".
We'll see if it stands to test of time.


"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hal:

Java is buried in a lot of webpages... when it first got big use... I
kinda
liked all the flashy visual stuff it could do...
... then it started bogging down net speed, then the scriptkiddies started
finding evil ways to hijack your browser and "trick" you into clicking on
buttons which put bad code on your machine with Java--I dumped Java
then--now I have run XP w/SP2 with SUN Java enabled and not been bothered
with the malicious code--but once burned--twice warned--and I turn Java
off
most of the time... some forms demand it...

I am not against scripting languages, and perl is one of the first I
learned--but since I write in C, Java is no problem--but I don't like the
OOP part, it forces a lot of predefined functions/procedures and methods
on
you... luckily, we don't do any Java at the shop--it is too slow for our
implementations of encryption/decryption... sometimes assembly is barely
able to manage the tasks in real time... and that is important with
voice/video communications...

Are you a programmer Hal? And if so, what is your language(s) of choice?
And, are you a hobby programmer or have to try to get enough money to eat
from your efforts (like me grin) ? My most fulfilling use of code is
for
personal use... I'd really quit my job if I didn't need the booze, cigs
and
loose women (well, something like that grin)

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message
. ..
Saw an article where Google uses 3 languages routinely: C++, Java, and
Python.
(All 3 are object-oriented)
Special permission was needed for other languages
I think one reason for the OO movement revolves around the cost of
development.
Large projects -
with many developers of varying degrees of competence -
are easier to manage
using OO design.

If someone gives a coder a job like:
"write an instance method for xyz class which will take 2 int args and
return a abc class..."
he can go right to work. -and -
someone else can be coding a different method for the same class.

regardless of the language
when you code
you'll find some patterns
we all use
over and over
the difference is
syntax

Hal:
.... well, scriptkiddies may be offensive to some, perhaps "scripters" would be a better choice to describe this group of coders...

.... I often hear Java discussed as if it were a language, instead of a compiled scripting language... however, even if they were correct--one would only need to ask the question, "Why?" As, with "C" and "C++" it would only be a reduplication of effort! If the intent is to rename "C++" to "Java"--well, as time passes it just might take...

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message .. .
Yep, Applets gave Java a head start.
But now I don't think applets are being used very much.
Full blown applications (like Star Office and 'Open Office.org)
is the typical Java program now.
Now everyone is trying to get their programs web-enabled.
Yep - I'm a programmer. and a student - and a teacher
The more I learn, the more I learn that there's more to learn.
My ignorance becomes more obvious to me as I learn.
The push now is to make legacy apps web-accessable -
or to replace legacy code with web apps.
Java servlets and Java Server Pages (As opposed to Applets) seems to be the
wave of the future.
I don't have a favorite language until I see the environment and
requirements.
But I do have 'least favorites' (C# and dot-net in general)
your description of scriptkiddies causing you to 'dump java' is a shame

But It still sounds like you're getting JavaScript confused with Java.
Since you program in c, it makes sense that you don't like OO.
Object-Oriented programming is quite a departure from the procedural world
of c.
Its a different programming philosophy.
And to top it off - they're coming with a new one called "Aspect-Oriented
Programming".
We'll see if it stands to test of time.


"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hal:

Java is buried in a lot of webpages... when it first got big use... I
kinda
liked all the flashy visual stuff it could do...
... then it started bogging down net speed, then the scriptkiddies started
finding evil ways to hijack your browser and "trick" you into clicking on
buttons which put bad code on your machine with Java--I dumped Java
then--now I have run XP w/SP2 with SUN Java enabled and not been bothered
with the malicious code--but once burned--twice warned--and I turn Java
off
most of the time... some forms demand it...

I am not against scripting languages, and perl is one of the first I
learned--but since I write in C, Java is no problem--but I don't like the
OOP part, it forces a lot of predefined functions/procedures and methods
on
you... luckily, we don't do any Java at the shop--it is too slow for our
implementations of encryption/decryption... sometimes assembly is barely
able to manage the tasks in real time... and that is important with
voice/video communications...

Are you a programmer Hal? And if so, what is your language(s) of choice?
And, are you a hobby programmer or have to try to get enough money to eat
from your efforts (like me grin) ? My most fulfilling use of code is
for
personal use... I'd really quit my job if I didn't need the booze, cigs
and
loose women (well, something like that grin)

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message
. ..
Saw an article where Google uses 3 languages routinely: C++, Java, and
Python.
(All 3 are object-oriented)
Special permission was needed for other languages
I think one reason for the OO movement revolves around the cost of
development.
Large projects -
with many developers of varying degrees of competence -
are easier to manage
using OO design.

If someone gives a coder a job like:
"write an instance method for xyz class which will take 2 int args and
return a abc class..."
he can go right to work. -and -
someone else can be coding a different method for the same class.

regardless of the language
when you code
you'll find some patterns
we all use
over and over
the difference is
syntax

You mentioned "Java applet" for instance... its' counter part in the "real world" is a dynamic .dll, binary code called and executed as needed... it really makes no sense in renaming a dll to "applet." Why this "floats" and is claimed to be "revolutionary" is beyond my understanding--I chuck all such things into the "obfuscation bucket." And, think the ones doing this have just run out of fresh ideas so are reduced to BS to try to cut out a position for themselves...

Cynical is my middle name, I forgot to tell ya that, "John Cynical Smith." grin

Warmest regards,
John

"John Smith" wrote in message ...
Hal:
... well, scriptkiddies may be offensive to some, perhaps "scripters" would be a better choice to describe this group of coders...

... I often hear Java discussed as if it were a language, instead of a compiled scripting language... however, even if they were correct--one would only need to ask the question, "Why?" As, with "C" and "C++" it would only be a reduplication of effort! If the intent is to rename "C++" to "Java"--well, as time passes it just might take...

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message .. .
Yep, Applets gave Java a head start.
But now I don't think applets are being used very much.
Full blown applications (like Star Office and 'Open Office.org)
is the typical Java program now.
Now everyone is trying to get their programs web-enabled.
Yep - I'm a programmer. and a student - and a teacher
The more I learn, the more I learn that there's more to learn.
My ignorance becomes more obvious to me as I learn.
The push now is to make legacy apps web-accessable -
or to replace legacy code with web apps.
Java servlets and Java Server Pages (As opposed to Applets) seems to be the
wave of the future.
I don't have a favorite language until I see the environment and
requirements.
But I do have 'least favorites' (C# and dot-net in general)
your description of scriptkiddies causing you to 'dump java' is a shame

But It still sounds like you're getting JavaScript confused with Java.
Since you program in c, it makes sense that you don't like OO.
Object-Oriented programming is quite a departure from the procedural world
of c.
Its a different programming philosophy.
And to top it off - they're coming with a new one called "Aspect-Oriented
Programming".
We'll see if it stands to test of time.


"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hal:

Java is buried in a lot of webpages... when it first got big use... I
kinda
liked all the flashy visual stuff it could do...
... then it started bogging down net speed, then the scriptkiddies started
finding evil ways to hijack your browser and "trick" you into clicking on
buttons which put bad code on your machine with Java--I dumped Java
then--now I have run XP w/SP2 with SUN Java enabled and not been bothered
with the malicious code--but once burned--twice warned--and I turn Java
off
most of the time... some forms demand it...

I am not against scripting languages, and perl is one of the first I
learned--but since I write in C, Java is no problem--but I don't like the
OOP part, it forces a lot of predefined functions/procedures and methods
on
you... luckily, we don't do any Java at the shop--it is too slow for our
implementations of encryption/decryption... sometimes assembly is barely
able to manage the tasks in real time... and that is important with
voice/video communications...

Are you a programmer Hal? And if so, what is your language(s) of choice?
And, are you a hobby programmer or have to try to get enough money to eat
from your efforts (like me grin) ? My most fulfilling use of code is
for
personal use... I'd really quit my job if I didn't need the booze, cigs
and
loose women (well, something like that grin)

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message
. ..
Saw an article where Google uses 3 languages routinely: C++, Java, and
Python.
(All 3 are object-oriented)
Special permission was needed for other languages
I think one reason for the OO movement revolves around the cost of
development.
Large projects -
with many developers of varying degrees of competence -
are easier to manage
using OO design.

If someone gives a coder a job like:
"write an instance method for xyz class which will take 2 int args and
return a abc class..."
he can go right to work. -and -
someone else can be coding a different method for the same class.

regardless of the language
when you code
you'll find some patterns
we all use
over and over
the difference is
syntax

first, scriptkiddies are not 'coders', they are idiots who only know enough
to run scripts that they download from hacker sites.

second, java is a language and it is definately not a 'scripting' language.
it is a full featured high level language. you might be confusing java with
javascript. javascript is completely different and should never be
mentioned in the same sentence with java.

finally, there is no one that works in c++ who wants to rename it java, they
are very different things. however, c# is microsofts attempt to merge c++
and java, likewise vb.net is their attempt at merging vb and java. how well
it works is still being worked out i think.

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hal:
.... well, scriptkiddies may be offensive to some, perhaps "scripters" would
be a better choice to describe this group of coders...

.... I often hear Java discussed as if it were a language, instead of a
compiled scripting language... however, even if they were correct--one would
only need to ask the question, "Why?" As, with "C" and "C++" it would only
be a reduplication of effort! If the intent is to rename "C++" to
"Java"--well, as time passes it just might take...

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message
.. .
Yep, Applets gave Java a head start.
But now I don't think applets are being used very much.
Full blown applications (like Star Office and 'Open Office.org)
is the typical Java program now.
Now everyone is trying to get their programs web-enabled.
Yep - I'm a programmer. and a student - and a teacher
The more I learn, the more I learn that there's more to learn.
My ignorance becomes more obvious to me as I learn.
The push now is to make legacy apps web-accessable -
or to replace legacy code with web apps.
Java servlets and Java Server Pages (As opposed to Applets) seems to be
the
wave of the future.
I don't have a favorite language until I see the environment and
requirements.
But I do have 'least favorites' (C# and dot-net in general)
your description of scriptkiddies causing you to 'dump java' is a shame

But It still sounds like you're getting JavaScript confused with Java.
Since you program in c, it makes sense that you don't like OO.
Object-Oriented programming is quite a departure from the procedural world
of c.
Its a different programming philosophy.
And to top it off - they're coming with a new one called "Aspect-Oriented
Programming".
We'll see if it stands to test of time.


"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hal:

Java is buried in a lot of webpages... when it first got big use... I
kinda
liked all the flashy visual stuff it could do...
... then it started bogging down net speed, then the scriptkiddies
started
finding evil ways to hijack your browser and "trick" you into clicking
on
buttons which put bad code on your machine with Java--I dumped Java
then--now I have run XP w/SP2 with SUN Java enabled and not been
bothered
with the malicious code--but once burned--twice warned--and I turn Java
off
most of the time... some forms demand it...

I am not against scripting languages, and perl is one of the first I
learned--but since I write in C, Java is no problem--but I don't like
the
OOP part, it forces a lot of predefined functions/procedures and methods
on
you... luckily, we don't do any Java at the shop--it is too slow for
our
implementations of encryption/decryption... sometimes assembly is barely
able to manage the tasks in real time... and that is important with
voice/video communications...

Are you a programmer Hal? And if so, what is your language(s) of
choice?
And, are you a hobby programmer or have to try to get enough money to
eat
from your efforts (like me grin) ? My most fulfilling use of code is
for
personal use... I'd really quit my job if I didn't need the booze, cigs
and
loose women (well, something like that grin)

Warmest regards,
John

"Hal Rosser" wrote in message
. ..
Saw an article where Google uses 3 languages routinely: C++, Java, and
Python.
(All 3 are object-oriented)
Special permission was needed for other languages
I think one reason for the OO movement revolves around the cost of
development.
Large projects -
with many developers of varying degrees of competence -
are easier to manage
using OO design.

If someone gives a coder a job like:
"write an instance method for xyz class which will take 2 int args and
return a abc class..."
he can go right to work. -and -
someone else can be coding a different method for the same class.

regardless of the language
when you code
you'll find some patterns
we all use
over and over
the difference is
syntax