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#11
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nick smith wrote:
Is this a fairly correct understanding of what is going on, Reg / Cecil ? Yep, Nick, all I was doing was taking a tongue-in-cheek poke at the idea that "The tuner doesn't reduce efficiency." -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#12
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"Cecil Moore" says - There's no such thing as a 100% efficient tuner. ==================================== Cecil, not a very surprising statement. There's nothing which is 100% efficient. What is the typical efficiency of a typical tuner with a typical antenna. Does it differ significantly from 100% ? Yes or no? ---- Reg. Well, at the risk of David going into conflict with the Goliaths of the newsgroups, I would reckon that a tuner (matcher ?) must be a pretty efficient device as it doesn't get very warm from wasting energy as heat - or perhaps my aerials are a reasonably good match and the tuner isn't doing any / much work. Also a tuner, I would suggest, is a fairly useful bit of kit in that it enables the transmitter to see the sort of load it wants to and allows it to deliver more power to the antenna system without the internal protection devices limiting the power it produces (to avoid self destruction) even if not all arrives at the antenna....... Is this a fairly correct understanding of what is going on, Reg / Cecil ? Nick ==================================== Nick, your response indicates a 'perfect' understanding of what goes on inside tuner boxes. If it runs cold or cool with 100 watts there's nothing to worry about. Most Guru's over-exaggerate the importance of tuner losses. But in a practical case they never state what the efficiency actually is. Such omissions illustrate their ignorance of the subject. From the frequency of occurrence at which 'tuner loss' appears in these columns, novices and even experienced amateurs can gain the frightening impression that tuner loss is the most serious loss in the system and is to be avoided at all costs, even to the extent of dispensing with the tuner. In answer to my own question, the efficiency of a typical tuner when used with a typical antenna does not differ significantly from 100 percent. Even if it is as poor as 90% this corresponds to an undetectable loss in signal strength of 0.5dB or 1/13 of an S-unit. Less than the thickness of the S-meter needle. So forget it. ---- Reg, G4FGQ |
#13
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"Reg Edwards" wrote in message ... "Cecil Moore" says - There's no such thing as a 100% efficient tuner. ==================================== Cecil, not a very surprising statement. There's nothing which is 100% efficient. What is the typical efficiency of a typical tuner with a typical antenna. Does it differ significantly from 100% ? Yes or no? ---- Reg. Well, at the risk of David going into conflict with the Goliaths of the newsgroups, I would reckon that a tuner (matcher ?) must be a pretty efficient device as it doesn't get very warm from wasting energy as heat - or perhaps my aerials are a reasonably good match and the tuner isn't doing any / much work. Also a tuner, I would suggest, is a fairly useful bit of kit in that it enables the transmitter to see the sort of load it wants to and allows it to deliver more power to the antenna system without the internal protection devices limiting the power it produces (to avoid self destruction) even if not all arrives at the antenna....... Is this a fairly correct understanding of what is going on, Reg / Cecil ? Nick ==================================== Nick, your response indicates a 'perfect' understanding of what goes on inside tuner boxes. If it runs cold or cool with 100 watts there's nothing to worry about. Most Guru's over-exaggerate the importance of tuner losses. But in a practical case they never state what the efficiency actually is. Such omissions illustrate their ignorance of the subject. From the frequency of occurrence at which 'tuner loss' appears in these columns, novices and even experienced amateurs can gain the frightening impression that tuner loss is the most serious loss in the system and is to be avoided at all costs, even to the extent of dispensing with the tuner. In answer to my own question, the efficiency of a typical tuner when used with a typical antenna does not differ significantly from 100 percent. Even if it is as poor as 90% this corresponds to an undetectable loss in signal strength of 0.5dB or 1/13 of an S-unit. Less than the thickness of the S-meter needle. So forget it. ---- Reg, G4FGQ Well, I was actually pretty sure I was right, but its good to have it confirmed and hope this was useful to others in their understanding or otherwise of the job a tuner (matcher) does. Thanks Gentlemen, Nick |
#14
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On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 07:40:49 GMT, "nick smith"
wrote: ... "Cecil Moore" says - There's no such thing as a 100% efficient tuner. ==================================== Cecil, not a very surprising statement. There's nothing which is 100% efficient. What is the typical efficiency of a typical tuner with a typical antenna. Does it differ significantly from 100% ? Yes or no? ---- Reg. Well, at the risk of David going into conflict with the Goliaths of the newsgroups, I would reckon that a tuner (matcher ?) must be a pretty efficient device as it doesn't get very warm from wasting energy as heat - or perhaps my aerials are a reasonably good match and the tuner isn't doing any / much work. Let me refer to you to this link: http://users.triconet.org/wesandlinda/ladder.htm and suggest that you also follow the imbedded link to my letter to Dean. There you will find an analysis if what tuner losses can be. But let's also answer this issue of "It doesn't get hot, so it must not be lossy." First let's say that, unless the op is a real blabbermouth, the transmit duty cycle will be 50%. Transmit half the time, listen half the time. If the op is on CW then the duty cycle of the transmit cycle is ~44%. (The standard word "PARIS" sent repeatedly with 1:3:7 spacing. So for CW operation, the overall duty cycle is .5 * .44 = 22%. On SSB it's more complicated. Without speech processing, the peak to average ratio is variously given, but 14:1 (11.5 dB) is typical. Most rigs have some form of speech compression or clipping these days (most used to excess). Really effective clippers, (ahem) http://users.triconet.org/wesandlinda/s_proc.pdf can improve this quite a bit so let's say that it's 6 dB. So the average power is 6 dB below the peak or 25% of the peak. Our overall duty cycle is .5 * .25 = 12.5% Of course the digital modes and FM are full carrier so the duty cycle is 50%. Not many using FM on hf where tuners are the norm, the PSK guys pride themselves on QRP, which leaves only the special case RTTY contesters running full power. So back to the guy running 100 W CW through a tuner driving a ladder line fed antenna. If his tuner burns up half of the power will it get hot? Are 11 W (22% of 50) going to smoke most components? What if the tuner loss is 6 dB? The average power dissipation climbs to a whopping 16.5 W. (22% of 75) Is this a big thermal management issue? Certainly, KW rigs running RTTY are going to be a bigger concern, but the tuners (and component parts) are commensurately bigger and can dissipate more power without "getting hot". |
#15
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Let's put this an easier way, how many of you have a low pass filter in
line. Most manufacturers claim a .25dB or less insertion loss. These filters consist of a boat load of coils and caps. A tuner normally has 2 varible caps and a single silver plated coil. While any device indeed has loss, here we are picking fly crap out of pepper. Let me refer to you to this link: http://users.triconet.org/wesandlinda/ladder.htm and suggest that you also follow the imbedded link to my letter to Dean. There you will find an analysis if what tuner losses can be. But let's also answer this issue of "It doesn't get hot, so it must not be lossy." First let's say that, unless the op is a real blabbermouth, the transmit duty cycle will be 50%. Transmit half the time, listen half the time. If the op is on CW then the duty cycle of the transmit cycle is ~44%. (The standard word "PARIS" sent repeatedly with 1:3:7 spacing. So for CW operation, the overall duty cycle is .5 * .44 = 22%. On SSB it's more complicated. Without speech processing, the peak to average ratio is variously given, but 14:1 (11.5 dB) is typical. Most rigs have some form of speech compression or clipping these days (most used to excess). Really effective clippers, (ahem) http://users.triconet.org/wesandlinda/s_proc.pdf can improve this quite a bit so let's say that it's 6 dB. So the average power is 6 dB below the peak or 25% of the peak. Our overall duty cycle is .5 * .25 = 12.5% Of course the digital modes and FM are full carrier so the duty cycle is 50%. Not many using FM on hf where tuners are the norm, the PSK guys pride themselves on QRP, which leaves only the special case RTTY contesters running full power. So back to the guy running 100 W CW through a tuner driving a ladder line fed antenna. If his tuner burns up half of the power will it get hot? Are 11 W (22% of 50) going to smoke most components? What if the tuner loss is 6 dB? The average power dissipation climbs to a whopping 16.5 W. (22% of 75) Is this a big thermal management issue? Certainly, KW rigs running RTTY are going to be a bigger concern, but the tuners (and component parts) are commensurately bigger and can dissipate more power without "getting hot". |
#16
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Unfortunately, simply counting the number of coils and capacitors isn't
even an approximate way to judge loss. What counts, mainly, is how much current is flowing in those inductors and how large their wire is (and, if the capacitors have other than air dielectric, perhaps how much voltage is across the capacitors)(*). If you do an analysis of a tuner, you'll find that for a given applied power, the inductor current can vary a huge amount depending on the load impedance. Consequently, the loss can vary a greatly. Lowpass filters are invariably specified when in a circuit with a fixed, specified impedance load. It's not hard at all to design a lowpass filter which has low loss under that condition. Likewise, it's not hard to design a matching network (tuner) which has low loss when the load isn't too far away from 50 ohms resistive. The trick is to maintain reasonable loss when the impedance transformation is extreme. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Fred W4JLE wrote: Let's put this an easier way, how many of you have a low pass filter in line. Most manufacturers claim a .25dB or less insertion loss. These filters consist of a boat load of coils and caps. A tuner normally has 2 varible caps and a single silver plated coil. While any device indeed has loss, here we are picking fly crap out of pepper. |
#17
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Fred W4JLE wrote:
Let's put this an easier way, how many of you have a low pass filter in line. Most commercial rigs already meet the FCC spec so usually no low pass filter is needed. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#18
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In article ,
Fred W4JLE wrote: Let's put this an easier way, how many of you have a low pass filter in line. Most manufacturers claim a .25dB or less insertion loss. These filters consist of a boat load of coils and caps. A tuner normally has 2 varible caps and a single silver plated coil. While any device indeed has loss, here we are picking fly crap out of pepper. I think you're making an inapplicable comparison. The low-pass filters you're referring to have a relatively low loss when used as directed, it's true... but the "use as directed" condition usually mandates having the proper source and sink impedances on either side. The loaded Q is usually modest. A transmatch being used to match a difficult load can be in a distinctly different situation. If the load is a harsh one (low R, high magnitude of X), tuning up can create a situation with a high network Q and high circulating currents in the tuner components. The April '95 QST has an article which shows some actual calculations (and if I recall correctly the Handbook has a bunch of tuner loss tables). One example in the QST article shows the results of using a T tuner to tune an antenna which is just too darned short. The tuner sees a load of 4.40 - j35 ohms. Although a match can be established with the specified tuner components, the estimated power loss in the tuner is almost 2/3 of the input (4.54 dB!). The transmission line eats enough 11.6 dB, in their example. Granted, this is a rather pathological situation, but it does occur from time to time in the real world. I've heard numerous reports of people "burning up" their tuners by trying to match a low-resistance, highly-reactive load, and frying the coil. Some of the MFJ tuners seem to have a reputation for suffering from heat damage to the coils (the plastic coil form melts). -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#19
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Can you give us a typical loss for a tuner matching a G5RV?
"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message ... Unfortunately, simply counting the number of coils and capacitors isn't even an approximate way to judge loss. What counts, mainly, is how much current is flowing in those inductors and how large their wire is (and, if the capacitors have other than air dielectric, perhaps how much voltage is across the capacitors)(*). If you do an analysis of a tuner, you'll find that for a given applied power, the inductor current can vary a huge amount depending on the load impedance. Consequently, the loss can vary a greatly. Lowpass filters are invariably specified when in a circuit with a fixed, specified impedance load. It's not hard at all to design a lowpass filter which has low loss under that condition. Likewise, it's not hard to design a matching network (tuner) which has low loss when the load isn't too far away from 50 ohms resistive. The trick is to maintain reasonable loss when the impedance transformation is extreme. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Fred W4JLE wrote: Let's put this an easier way, how many of you have a low pass filter in line. Most manufacturers claim a .25dB or less insertion loss. These filters consist of a boat load of coils and caps. A tuner normally has 2 varible caps and a single silver plated coil. While any device indeed has loss, here we are picking fly crap out of pepper. |
#20
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Fred W4JLE wrote:
Can you give us a typical loss for a tuner matching a G5RV? No, sorry, I can't, and I don't believe there is such a thing. It's possible of course to find the input impedance of any wire antenna like the G5RV at each of the frequencies of interest. But transmission line lengths and impedances vary, which transforms the impedance seen by the tuner. Those impedance changes can be dramatic, and can result in widely varying tuner efficiency. On top of that, you have the variations in tuner topology and construction which makes a "typical" tuner also an elusive beast. I'd be very suspicious of any "typical" tuner loss figure, and wouldn't expect to see it in practice unless the conditions are spelled out really well and my setup was very similar. You see, I'm not a true Guru. A real one wouldn't waffle like this, but would give you a positive answer, and you'd very probably never have reason to doubt it. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
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