Nonsense Wes, take the case of an antenna that is of sufficient length,
height, or what ever so that at the antenna is exactly R 50 J0.

I feed it with an electrical 1/2 wave length of exactly 450 Ohm feedline.
The 50 Ohms from my antenna is repeated at the other end of the feedline. An
SWR bridge calibrated for 50 Ohms and my rig see 1:1.

Would you deny that the SWR on the feedline is 9:1? What is my SWR?

Can I say I have 1:1 at the ends and 9:1 anywhere on the feedline? I do get
to say it!

Now if you want to argue that it will never be exactly 9:1 because the
feedline is never exactly 450 Ohms, or the antenna has a reactive portion,
you will have to change the subject. No generalization is valid, including
mine that I have a 9:1 by design. But I suspect you already new that and
decided to increase the quantity of fly crap in the pepper.

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:01:23 -0400, "Fred W4JLE"
wrote:
You don't get to say that 1/2 wavelength of it is operating at
9:1 and some other part is operating at something else.

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:02:43 -0400, "Fred W4JLE"
wrote:


You started with this (mis)statement:

All my feedlines have a 9:1 SWR by design.

I challenged this crap and showed that, using your own example, this
was not the case.

You called my challenge "nonsense" and then go on to agree with my
original point:

No generalization is valid, including
mine that I have a 9:1 by design.

Simply amazing.

You win Wes, pick up the marbles.

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:02:43 -0400, "Fred W4JLE"
wrote:


You started with this (mis)statement:

All my feedlines have a 9:1 SWR by design.

I challenged this crap and showed that, using your own example, this
was not the case.

You called my challenge "nonsense" and then go on to agree with my
original point:

No generalization is valid, including
mine that I have a 9:1 by design.

Simply amazing.

Pardon me while I learn from this discussion.

The 450 ohm antenna is designed to be tuned by using exactly 1/2
electrical wave lengths to match both the transmitter and antenna.
This should mean that any differing feedline should work equally as
well (except for the losses) if I am correct....




On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:02:43 -0400, "Fred W4JLE"
wrote:

I feed it with an electrical 1/2 wave length of exactly 450 Ohm feedline.
The 50 Ohms from my antenna is repeated at the other end of the feedline. An
SWR bridge calibrated for 50 Ohms and my rig see 1:1.

--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:52:01 -0400, Buck wrote:

Pardon me while I learn from this discussion.

Hold on Buck.

So far there has been very little "learning" to be done from this
discussion.

I dislike getting personal but I strongly suggest that you reject
anything Fred has put forth. Some of what he says is correct, but for
the most part you are being led astray. Since you don't yet have the
skills to separate the good from the BS, the safest thing to do is
ignore it all.

For example he has suggested that an all-band antenna can be nothing
more than a 130' dipole fed through 100' of 450 ohm line to which you
connect a 50 ohm coax and "your rig will be happy."

Let's examine this premise, shall we.

If you don't already have it, download the free version of EZNEC.

www.eznec.com

If you have MS Excel do the following. If you don't skip down below
the dotted line.

Download the program XLZIZL.xls at:

http://www.qsl.net/ac6la/xlzizl.html

Using EZNEC set up a frequency sweep, for example 3.5 to 4.0 MHz in 50
KHz steps and check Microsmith Files as an output and give a file name
("80meter" for example)

"Build" the 130' long antenna in the wires menu, add a source in the
middle and do the frequency sweep. (I used a height of 50' and 12 AWG
wire)

Open xlzizl.xls and select the "ZIZL" worksheet if it isn't already
active. "Press" the "Clear all freq..." button (near cell A25).
Press the "Read file for Freq, R, X" button (near cell D25). Navigate
to the file location where you specified the Microsmith files be
located. The default is in the Smith subdirectory in the EZW
directory. Select the file "80meter.gam" and open it.

The calculated data will populate the Frequency, R at load and X at
load cells.

Press the "Refresh and show Smith" button (near cell I28). The Smith
chart will open and display the calculated impedance data for the 130'
antenna operated from 3.5 to 4.0 MHz.

Now we are going to add a transmission line. Select the "ZIZL"
worksheet again and press the "Set via Dialog" button (near cell A34).

The "Network definition" window will open with "Element position 1"
selected by default. Change it to "5". Under "Element type" select
Transmission line.

Under "Qualifier" scroll the dropdown menu to either "Generic 450 ohm
window" or if you more more realistic numbers you can select one of
the Wireman Ladder line types. (Ignore "wet" ones.)

Mouse down to the "Element Value" area an type in "100" for the length
and press the "Set This Element" button and then close the Network
definition window.

Press the Refresh and show Smith Chart button and you will now see two
traces, the original "load" data and the feedpoint data at the input
to the 100' transmission line. If you know anything about Smith charts
you will immediately notice that the match is worse at the input of
the line than it was at the antenna. So much for the "magic" 100'
length that Fred proposes.

Going back to the ZIZL sheet and looking in the "results" area you can
see that at 3.5 MHz the SWR is 36:1. Without the "magic" 100' of
ladderline, the SWR is 3:1.

You can repeat this exercise at different frequency ranges and see
just how awful this idea is.

Let's continue...

Assume that your 50-ohm coax is 50' long. Go back to the Network "Set
via Dialog" button. Accept the "1" default for Element Position and
again select Transmission Line for Element Type. For Qualifier, let's
use Belden 9258 (RG8X), although you can use what you use.

Set the length to 50' and press "Set this Element." Close the window.

Press the Refresh and show Smith button and you will now see three
traces on the chart: the load, the impedance at the inut of the 450
ohm line and the impedance at the input of the 50 ohm line.

Return to the ZIZL sheet and under results note that the SWR at 3.5
MHz is down to "only" 17:1. This is what your rig is going to see.
Also note that the network loss (the line loss) is over 3 dB.

Now just for giggles, let's take out the 100' of ladderline and make
the whole 150' run out of RG8X. You can just highlight the cells "G34
through G36" and delete them and then select cell C36 and type in 150
and tab out. Press "F9" and see the new results.

The 3.5 MHz SWR is now 2.4:1 and the total network (line) loss is 1.2
dB. So replacing the "low loss" ladderline with "lossy" coax improved
the match and lowered the loss.

I don't know how much of this "magic" I can stand.

************************************************** *****************


If you don't have Excel there is a more labor intensive method that is
just as accurate.

Go to

http://www.qsl.net/ac6la/tldetails.html

and download the program and open it.

Select a transmission line type, "Generic 450 ohm Window" for example.
The line parameters will populate the boxes to the right. Under Set
Frequency, type in 3.5.

Run EZNEC one frequency at a time, beginning with 3.5 MHz. Look at
the source data and note the Impedance R and X values. Pay attention
to the sign of X.

Copy these values to "R" and "X" in the TLdetails program. Remember
the sign of X. For example I used R = 61, X = -64.

In the "results" area under "At Input" you can see the R and X values
at the input and note that the SWR in the 450 ohm line is about 7:1
and in the 50 ohm feeder Fred would have you connecting at this point
the SWR is as before ~36:1.

If you want to "add" the 50 ohm line, copy down the R and X at the
input (132, -470) and enter them in the the R and X boxes above.
Change the line type to Belden 9258 and the length to 50 feet and as
above, the SWR at the input is ~17:1.

To summarize:

There are ample free tools to work these problems out without relying
on bafflegab. You don't have to take my word or anyone else's; work
the problem yourself and learn something while doing it.

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:23:50 -0700, Wes Stewart
wrote:
[snip}

Under "Qualifier" scroll the dropdown menu to either "Generic 450 ohm
window" or if you more more realistic numbers you can select one of
the Wireman Ladder line types. (Ignore "wet" ones.)

This should of course read, "...if you want more realistic..."

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:16:06 -0700, Wes Stewart
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:23:50 -0700, Wes Stewart
wrote:
[snip}

Under "Qualifier" scroll the dropdown menu to either "Generic 450 ohm
window" or if you more more realistic numbers you can select one of
the Wireman Ladder line types. (Ignore "wet" ones.)

This should of course read, "...if you want more realistic..."



I am not sure what I just did or saw. I had several colored graphs
charted and one gray. The gray didn't seem to move around, but the
colored ones sure did. I am afraid I didn't see what you were trying
to show me. I believe the colors were the different feed lines,
capacitors, etc used in the feedline shown. I tried removing them and
only leaving the feedline I chose to use. I don't know if I did
something wrong or not, but the gray line appeared to be the antenna
and it never appeared to move. The feedline markers moved radically.



I haven't thought a lot about the losses in ladder-type feedline, but
I do understand how the losses in coax can reduce High SWR by reducing
both the outgoing and incoming reflected signals in the coax. This
may make the antenna desirable to the rig, but it doesn't do any good
for the operator who is trying to reach or copy that weak signal. It
may well be that the Twin-lead has the same effect. I often read that
one of the advantages of the twin-lead is that it can handle higher
SWR without the higher losses of coax.

I seem to have been seeing a lot about the technology of the twin-lead
tuning technology, but then I can't be sure it wasn't from the same
people here on this forum. I'll continue to look into it to see what
I might learn.

I was able to get past whatever block I had on learning to use EZNEC,
so at least some good came from this discussion. Hopefully, I'll
learn more and can model this antenna and others I read about.

Thanks very much for taking the time to address this with me.

73,
Buck
N4PGW



--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

Buck wrote:
I seem to have been seeing a lot about the technology of the twin-lead
tuning technology, but then I can't be sure it wasn't from the same
people here on this forum. I'll continue to look into it to see what
I might learn.

The "twin-lead tuning technology" is based on the laws of
physics, not the approval of the gurus on this newsgroup.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:30:48 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

Buck wrote:
I seem to have been seeing a lot about the technology of the twin-lead
tuning technology, but then I can't be sure it wasn't from the same
people here on this forum. I'll continue to look into it to see what
I might learn.

The "twin-lead tuning technology" is based on the laws of
physics, not the approval of the gurus on this newsgroup.


I am not in a position to argue with either side on the issue. I am
just doing my best to learn. Here is one lesson I learned in 25 years
of ham radio, Either there is sufficient propagation for your station
or there is not. Without propagation, a kw amp in a 12 element beam
will not get you across the ocean, and if there is sufficient
propagation, one can make a contact with a dummy load (I saw this
demonstrated once on 75 meters).

Probably the things I remember most about antennas is what I learned
from the two Jims of Taylor Radio, a local antenna MFG company at the
time. "More technological advancements have been made in marketing
departments than in Research and Development."

I realize that there are several here who actively disagree and
discuss their disagreements with each other. I haven't seen any, so
far, that are all BS and have no knowledge to offer. I don't
criticize anyone, but I will ask, suggest, and offer opinions that I
hope will be either corrected or supported appropriately.

I have used experimental antennas that theoretically won't 'work' and
made contacts. One was a roll of 500 foot of wire. I unrolled an
estimated 1/4 wave of wire for 80 meters, on the first try it was
1.5:1 or less and I used it to check into the GA SSB net. I had a
weak signal, but it worked. I also hung an inverted V with a random
length of wire from each side (I don't remember the length, but they
were both the same length.) I connected one side of the feedline and
dipole to the left side of a 100ohm resistor and the other side of the
feedline and dipole to the other side of the resistor. My theory was
that the antenna would be a parallel circuit leaving the impedance
below 100 ohms. I don't know if my theory worked, but I did make
contacts. When I took down the antenna and replaced it with a shorter
dipole, I had a much better receiver than I had with the resistor.

I am always looking for that 'best' all-band hf antenna so I don't
have to change or tune, etc. One day I'll either find it or die
trying. Until then, I plan to enjoy learning more about antennas and
experimenting with them.

73 for now
Buck


--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:13:01 -0400, Buck wrote:

[snip]

I am not sure what I just did or saw. I had several colored graphs
charted and one gray. The gray didn't seem to move around, but the
colored ones sure did. I am afraid I didn't see what you were trying
to show me. I believe the colors were the different feed lines,
capacitors, etc used in the feedline shown. I tried removing them and
only leaving the feedline I chose to use. I don't know if I did
something wrong or not, but the gray line appeared to be the antenna
and it never appeared to move. The feedline markers moved radically.

I guess you're looking at the Smith chart in XLZIZL. What you are
seeing is correct. The gray trace is the load impedance and absent
changes in the antenna it will be fixed. If you look right to the
legend you will see what each of the colors represents.

So if you've modeled something in EZNEC and read the resulting data
file into ZLZIZL.xls and did a "Refresh and show Smith chart" you will
see the data plotted as the "Load"

Let's do a little (bit long) experiment that will clarify this (I
hope) and also demonstrate some of what happens in a matching network.

1. Open EZNEC and open the file "BYdipole.ez".

2. Go to "Setups" (at the top of the window) and select "Frequency
Sweep."

3. When the pane opens, select "On" and type in 14.35 for the "Stop
Frequency" and .05 for the "Frequency Step."

4. Under output. check the box "Microsmith Files" and for file name
type "g5rv" and hit Ok.

5. Go to the "Wires" menu and change the Y value for End 1 to -51.
Change the Y value for End 2 to 51.

6. Do a "Save As" and type "g5rv".

7. Perform a Freq Swp. (Bottom left button).

8. Open XLZIZL, clear any old data or networks and read the g5rv.gam
file.

9. Press "Refresh and show Smith chart."

10. The gray trace is the plotted impedance of the feedpoint of the
102' dipole over the 20-meter band.

11. Now at this point Varney (G5RV) recommended a "matching section"
of 34' of open wire line, followed by a run of 72 ohm line to the
shack. (If you want to see how bad this idea was, you can experiment
with adding the lines in the Network dialog)

12. We are going to do it the "modern" way, by using ladderline and a
tuner.

13. In the Network definition dialog, select element position 5 and
set the type to "Transmission Line", select "Wireman 554" and set the
length to 50'. Set the element and close the pane.

14. Press the "Refresh and show Smith chart." The red trace shows the
impedance at the input end of the 50' transmission line. Since the
desired target is the center of the chart, we can seen that this was a
negative "improvement."

Note: I didn't contrive this feeder length, it was just a round
number that seemed like an average situational value that follows the
"conventional wisdom" that says, "Use a length long enough to reach
from the antenna to the rig."

15. This is what we're stuck with if we decide to use ladderline and
a tuner, so let's muddle on.

16. In the ZIZL worksheet at row 38 there are some boxes for
Component Q. Enter 500 for Qu(C), 250 for Qu(L) and 14 for Q ref
freq.

17. Now let's explore a slick feature of this program and design a
matching network. Highlight the cells F106 and F107.

18. Look at cell I43 and press "Copy Selected R,X to T-Pi-L".

19. Focus will transfer to the T-Pi-L worksheet and a query window
may open asking whether you want to copy the Q values from the ZIZL
sheet. Answer Yes. You will no doubt get a second advisory pane that
says that frequencies differ. Answer "Ok". Cell H10 will be
selected. Type 14.2 into it and press Enter or Tab to input the data.

20. We are now presented with four built-in matching network
solutions. The most used topography for commercial tuners these days
is the "High Pass T." (Option 1) So we will use it. You can press
"Schematic" and see the configuration. Press the "Copy to FT/Solver"
button. (Cell B24)

21. The last action took the precalculated values and moved them to
the Fine Tune / Solver Area. For now, we won't explore the attributes
of this feature. Press the "Copy to ZIZL 1-3" button. (Cell K26)

22. Focus will return to the ZIZL sheet and a query pane will open.
Answer "No." If you look at the network definition table area you can
note that there are now three components in addition to the
transmission line in evidence.

23. Press "Refresh and show Smith chart."

24. Focus returns to the Smith chart where a wealth of information is
presented. In the upper right corner there is a box that shows
exactly what the feed system consists of. The "Plot Segments" box
shows the legend for each trace and what the effect of each network
component is. The informational box to the left will show the
parameters of any data point on any trace by just double clicking the
point.

Of course, the trace for Plot Segment 1, the input series C, is what
we are after. All but the 14.0 MHz point fall inside a 2:1 SWR
circle. Let's see if we can fix that.

25. Press the "Tune / Set" button (lower right corner). Long years
of experience tell me to tune the input capacitor first, so that's
what we'll do, but this may not always be the case. In the pane that
opens, select, "1:Series C", which if all of the calculations are the
same, should equal 51.2 pF. Mouse down a bit and find the +-1% option
and select it. We are going to "tune" the input capacitor in 1%
steps. Click the "Increase" up-arrow three times. Voila! The SWR is
less than 2:1 over the whole 20-meter band with one set of
adjustments. With each click you could see the action of "tuning"
this component. Note that none of the other traces moved at all. All
we changed was the match between the input and the junction of the
input C and the shunt L. The match from the junction to the antenna
was unaffected.

Because this is getting a bit long-winded and off-topic, I'm going to
stop here and pick this up in a new thread.



I haven't thought a lot about the losses in ladder-type feedline, but
I do understand how the losses in coax can reduce High SWR by reducing
both the outgoing and incoming reflected signals in the coax. This
may make the antenna desirable to the rig, but it doesn't do any good
for the operator who is trying to reach or copy that weak signal.

Correct.

It
may well be that the Twin-lead has the same effect.

It does.

I often read that
one of the advantages of the twin-lead is that it can handle higher
SWR without the higher losses of coax.

I seem to have been seeing a lot about the technology of the twin-lead
tuning technology, but then I can't be sure it wasn't from the same
people here on this forum. I'll continue to look into it to see what
I might learn.

Some of the people here know what they are talking about... others I'm
not so sure. I'm unlocking the tool box, so you can figure it out
yourself.


I was able to get past whatever block I had on learning to use EZNEC,
so at least some good came from this discussion. Hopefully, I'll
learn more and can model this antenna and others I read about.

I'm sure you will.


Thanks very much for taking the time to address this with me.

No problem. The guys that really deserve the thanks are the geniuses
1: who developed the NEC engine, 2: Roy, W7EL, (among others) who put
a pretty face on it, and 3: Dan Maguire, AC6LA, who did the Excel
stuff.

And the absolutely amazing thing is, they give away their work! Is
this a great country or what?

Regards,

Wes N7WS