First off, let me say I've very green when it comes to the technical end
of antennas. Most of the conversation in this group is way too deep for
me.

I am moving into an apartment that is on the top floor of a two-story
building. My deck is not only facing a large undeveloped area... but
there is a large tree that is only about arm's-length off my deck. This
tree is probably a good 100ft tall.

What I'm after here is HF antenna ideas. I am familiar with the idea of
an end-fed (more or less horizontal) longwire antenna used in
conjunction with something like an AH4 tuner. One of the problems
here... if I shoot a wire up in this tree... it will be vertical.
Another problem... because I'm on the second floor, there is no ground
connection readily available.

I could have a vertical multi-band HF antenna on a short mast on my
deck. But I'm thinking it might be advantageous to make use of this big
tree right next to my deck.

I would appreciate any ideas. Thanks in advance.

--
-=Elden=-
http://www.moondog.org

"Elden Fenison" wrote in message
...
First off, let me say I've very green when it comes to the technical
end
of antennas. Most of the conversation in this group is way too deep
for
me.

I am moving into an apartment that is on the top floor of a
two-story
building. My deck is not only facing a large undeveloped area... but
there is a large tree that is only about arm's-length off my deck.
This
tree is probably a good 100ft tall.

What I'm after here is HF antenna ideas. I am familiar with the idea
of
an end-fed (more or less horizontal) longwire antenna used in
conjunction with something like an AH4 tuner. One of the problems
here... if I shoot a wire up in this tree... it will be vertical.
Another problem... because I'm on the second floor, there is no
ground
connection readily available.

I could have a vertical multi-band HF antenna on a short mast on my
deck. But I'm thinking it might be advantageous to make use of this
big
tree right next to my deck.

I would appreciate any ideas. Thanks in advance.

--
-=Elden=-
http://www.moondog.org
=======================================

Elden,

Go vertical or steeply sloping. Better all-round multi-band
performance than lower horizontal long wire, specially DX at the lower
frequencies. Don't worry about the wire getting mixed up with the
tree. Just avoid direct contact with foliage. Use plastic insulated
wire. No need to bother with loading coils which will spoil the
multi-band properties. Use a tuner at the lower end of the wire near
to the transmitter. A modest ground system will suffice. Make use of
2 or 3 spaced connections to the domestic plumbing system. If possible
run a wire down the outside wall of the building to a few radials. A
single ground rod at the bottom end will be practically useless.
Disconnect the rod and you will notice no difference. You could
consider lengthening the vertical antenna by taking the wire sideways
or sloping downwards from the top for an excellent 1/4-wave or
0.3-wave, inverted-L performance on 160m.
----
Reg, G4FGQ.

* Reg Edwards [07/16/2005 05:04 UTC]:
Go vertical or steeply sloping. Better all-round multi-band
performance than lower horizontal long wire, specially DX at the lower
frequencies.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've spent much of the evening reading the
ARRL "Stealth Amateur Radio" book. Interesting stuff. It appears that in
addition to the wire up in the tree, I'll also need some sort of RF
ground. Maybe shooting a very thin wire over the top of my building
would do the trick.

Another thing I'm considering rather than a wire in the tree, is a
Hustler 6-BTV on a short mast. I'm not clear as to which would be likely
to perform better. But one thing... with the Hustler I wouldn't have to
spring for an AH-4 tuner.

--
-=Elden=-
http://www.moondog.org

Elden Fenison wrote:
It appears that in
addition to the wire up in the tree, I'll also need some sort of RF
ground.

You might consider a vertical dipole fed with ladder-line.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Elden Fenison wrote:
* Reg Edwards [07/16/2005 05:04 UTC]:
Go vertical or steeply sloping. Better all-round multi-band
performance than lower horizontal long wire, specially DX at the lower
frequencies.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've spent much of the evening reading the
ARRL "Stealth Amateur Radio" book. Interesting stuff. It appears that in
addition to the wire up in the tree, I'll also need some sort of RF
ground. Maybe shooting a very thin wire over the top of my building
would do the trick.

Another thing I'm considering rather than a wire in the tree, is a
Hustler 6-BTV on a short mast.
I'm not clear as to which would be likely
to perform better.

The wire should outperform the 6BTV by a large margin IF you have an
even half-decent counterpoise/grounding system in place like a
wire-over-the-roof plus Reg's plumbing system connections. You'd also
get much more bandwidth with a wire vs. the 6BTV. A random wire can be
used on 30M, a 6BTV cannot be used on 30M, etc.

But one thing... with the Hustler I wouldn't have to
spring for an AH-4 tuner.

You can put up a wire and buy a manual wire tuner like the $110 MFJ
941E plus the cost of the wire. I'll do the tuning manually and save
$150-200 additional cost for any autotuner every time.

--
-=Elden=-
http://www.moondog.org

w3rv

Brian Kelly wrote:
Elden Fenison wrote:
* Reg Edwards [07/16/2005 05:04 UTC]:
Go vertical or steeply sloping. Better all-round multi-band
performance than lower horizontal long wire, specially DX at the lower
frequencies.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've spent much of the evening reading the
ARRL "Stealth Amateur Radio" book. Interesting stuff. It appears that in
addition to the wire up in the tree, I'll also need some sort of RF
ground. Maybe shooting a very thin wire over the top of my building
would do the trick.

Another thing I'm considering rather than a wire in the tree, is a
Hustler 6-BTV on a short mast.
I'm not clear as to which would be likely
to perform better.

The wire should outperform the 6BTV by a large margin IF you have an
even half-decent counterpoise/grounding system in place like a
wire-over-the-roof plus Reg's plumbing system connections. You'd also
get much more bandwidth with a wire vs. the 6BTV. A random wire can be
used on 30M, a 6BTV cannot be used on 30M, etc.

Oops, my bad, you can use a 6BTV on 30M. But you can't use it on 17M or
12M. A wire can be tuned to operate anywhere in the HF spectrum and
beyond on both ends.

But one thing... with the Hustler I wouldn't have to
spring for an AH-4 tuner.

You can put up a wire and buy a manual wire tuner like the $110 MFJ
941E plus the cost of the wire. I'll do the tuning manually and save
$150-200 additional cost for any autotuner every time.

--
-=Elden=-
http://www.moondog.org

w3rv

* Brian Kelly [07/17/2005 02:19 UTC]:
The wire should outperform the 6BTV by a large margin IF you have an
even half-decent counterpoise/grounding system in place like a
wire-over-the-roof plus Reg's plumbing system connections. You'd also
get much more bandwidth with a wire vs. the 6BTV. A random wire can
be used on 30M, a 6BTV cannot be used on 30M, etc.

Excellent info, thanks!

You can put up a wire and buy a manual wire tuner like the $110 MFJ
941E plus the cost of the wire. I'll do the tuning manually and save
$150-200 additional cost for any autotuner every time.

Yeah, $140 difference. Question about that though... wouldn't the AH-4
be a better choice for another reason? That reason being that the AH-4
is designed to connect to the wire directly at the feed point, whereas
the MFJ is apparently designed for in-shack use.

--
-=Elden=-
http://www.moondog.org

Elden Fenison wrote:
* Brian Kelly [07/17/2005 02:19 UTC]:
The wire should outperform the 6BTV by a large margin IF you have an
even half-decent counterpoise/grounding system in place like a
wire-over-the-roof plus Reg's plumbing system connections. You'd also
get much more bandwidth with a wire vs. the 6BTV. A random wire can
be used on 30M, a 6BTV cannot be used on 30M, etc.

Excellent info, thanks!

You can put up a wire and buy a manual wire tuner like the $110 MFJ
941E plus the cost of the wire. I'll do the tuning manually and save
$150-200 additional cost for any autotuner every time.

Yeah, $140 difference. Question about that though... wouldn't the AH-4
be a better choice for another reason? That reason being that the AH-4
is designed to connect to the wire directly at the feed point, whereas
the MFJ is apparently designed for in-shack use.

That's quite true. But it's also true that the large majority of hams
who use end-fed random length wire antennas run the fed end of the wire
and a ground wire into the shack to manual tuners located near their
xcvrs. I've done it many times over many years and never had any big
problems with this kind of layout. The biggest concern in this topic
area is running the antenna and ground wire thru a window or wall to a
manual tuner or in the case of a remote autotuner like the AH-4 the
coax and control/power cable. It's six of one and a half-dozen of the
other in this regard, there is no way out of having to run "something"
from the outside to the operating posiition wires or cables, take your
pick.

The tradeoff you're facing is is spending $140 more to run a couple
cables thru the wall or window than it costs to run a couple wires thru
a wall or window. Which makes no sense to me.

There are worry-warts all over hamdom who get into an uproar over the
thought of having "RF hot" wires coming thru their walls and windows to
the operating position. That's utter nonsense unless very high powers
are involved in which case neither the AH-4 or the 941 can be used.

I'm usually able to install the operating position very close to a
window. I get a length of 2" wide x 3/4" thick rectangular trim molding
and cut it to the width of the window frame so that when the window is
closed on it the weather is sealed out. For an insulated feedthrough
widget I cut a 6" length of coax, usually 8X and strip the braid back
two inches on both ends then I strip the dielectric back and inch on
each end. Then I wrap the whole assembly with electrical tape to seal
it while leaving just the center conductors bare on both ends. I drill
holes thru the molding and install the "feedtrough insulators" thru the
holes and secure it in place with one of the hardware store "goops"
used for weather caulking. With the strip of wood in place I solder the
antenna and ground wires to the outer pigtails of the contraption and
solder insulated wires to the inner pigtails thence to the tuner, close
the window and get on the air.

Fact is though that as often as not I've simply run the insulated
antenna and ground wires thru small holes the wood and called it a day.
There's ALWAYS a way . . .

The caveat here is whether or not the operating position is located
within a few feet from the penetration point. Cables can be run on the
floor or along the wall to just about anywhere in your apartment. Wires
should not be willy-nilly run on floors or walls for a number of
reasons. If the operating position cannot be located close to the
penetration point you don't any choice, you'll need an AH-4 or one of
it's competitors. Or put up a coax-fed single-band dipole and you won't
need any type of tuner and the operating position can be anywhere in
your abode.

--
-=Elden=-

w3rv

Elden Fenison wrote:
* Brian Kelly [07/17/2005 02:19 UTC]:
The wire should outperform the 6BTV by a large margin IF you have an
even half-decent counterpoise/grounding system in place like a
wire-over-the-roof plus Reg's plumbing system connections. You'd also
get much more bandwidth with a wire vs. the 6BTV. A random wire can
be used on 30M, a 6BTV cannot be used on 30M, etc.

Excellent info, thanks!

You can put up a wire and buy a manual wire tuner like the $110 MFJ
941E plus the cost of the wire. I'll do the tuning manually and save
$150-200 additional cost for any autotuner every time.

Yeah, $140 difference. Question about that though... wouldn't the AH-4
be a better choice for another reason? That reason being that the AH-4
is designed to connect to the wire directly at the feed point, whereas
the MFJ is apparently designed for in-shack use.

Yes and no, it's a matter of several tradeoffs Elden. Right now I'm up
to ears in alligators so QRX and I'll get back to you late Monday with
some comments.

-=Elden=-
http://www.moondog.org

w3rv

* Brian Kelly [07/17/2005 22:19 UTC]:
Yeah, $140 difference. Question about that though... wouldn't the
AH-4 be a better choice for another reason? That reason being that
the AH-4 is designed to connect to the wire directly at the feed
point, whereas the MFJ is apparently designed for in-shack use.

Yes and no, it's a matter of several tradeoffs Elden. Right now I'm up
to ears in alligators so QRX and I'll get back to you late Monday with
some comments.

Ok Brian. I appreciate the advice you've given. I do understand that
there sometimes is disagreement between hams regarding certain things,
like having a portion of a radiating element in the shack.

Personally, I think I'd opt for an outdoor-mounted AH-4 for reasons of
efficency, convenience, and safety. But it is nice to know that other
options exist. So right now, my preferred solution is an ICOM IC-718,
with an AH-4 and a longwire. I think that should work nicely.

After surveying the new apartment location a little more closely, looks
like I could run a horizontal longwire, roughly parallel to the ground
for 100ft into a tree with some sort of insulator on the end. Then I
would do the "in apartment" counterpoise/RF ground. This would probably
be about 20/30ft off the ground... second floor height.

Regarding your explanation for getting various wires from indoor to
outdoor, I've taken the exact same approach. Using a thin 2x2 in the
window with cables running in through an opening in it. Seems to work ok
and no permanent holes in the structure.

--
-=Elden=-
http://www.moondog.org