Jim Kelley wrote:
I am familiar with the common usage of the expression 'power flow' and
of course the Poynting vector. I've been explaining that "energy flows -
not power" on this newsgroup for 4 years and have gotten nothing but
grief for it.

You are technically correct but it doesn't matter. The Sun
will rise tomorrow even if the Sun is fixed in space. I'll
even bolster your argument. RF energy moves at the speed
of light in the transmission line. The power meter is
standing still compared to the transmission line. If the
power meter were moving with the energy at the speed of
light, it wouldn't work at all. Does that help? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Cecil Moore wrote:

You are technically correct but it doesn't matter.

You just spent 4 years vehemently arguing the exact opposite point of
view. It sure seemed to matter to you - before yesterday.

RF energy moves at the speed
of light in the transmission line. The power meter is
standing still compared to the transmission line. If the
power meter were moving with the energy at the speed of
light, it wouldn't work at all. Does that help? :-)

Might be the seed of an idea there for a real nerdy Saturday morning
science fiction cartoon. "Cecil and the Power Meters"

Now that's the kind of humor that actually merits a smiley face! :-)

ac6xg

Jim Kelley wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
You are technically correct but it doesn't matter.

You just spent 4 years vehemently arguing the exact opposite point of
view.

BS! Please don't confuse my ability to act as devil's advocate
with what are my basic concepts. I have told you multiple times
before over any number of years that I agree with you that power
is energy passing a point or plane in a unit of time. That can
be easily proven to be true with a little Google research. I'm
old-fashioned enough to believe that joules/sec needs a reference
measuring point or plane. That's what I was taught in the 50's and
that's the concept that I still carry around in my head.

What I have said lately is that any number of knowledgeable
engineers and authors have an expanded definition of power.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Cecil Moore wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:

You are technically correct but it doesn't matter.


You just spent 4 years vehemently arguing the exact opposite point of
view.


BS!

Now you're vehemently arguing about whether you argued or not.

What I have said lately is that any number of knowledgeable
engineers and authors have an expanded definition of power.

That was never in dispute. You argued that power propagates and
reflects, and I explained that it doesn't. Now you're behaving like a
child.

ac6xg

Jim Kelley wrote:
You argued that power propagates and
reflects, and I explained that it doesn't.

Jim, you know that isn't true. After you reviewed my article,
I changed every occurence of "reflected power" to "reflected
energy" just to satisfy you. You have never been able to
back up your assertions about what I have said with any
quotes of mine. Wonder why?

So once again, I challenge you to produce a quote where I
said power propagates and reflects. I have always said that
energy propagates and reflects and power is the measurement
of that energy flowing past a point.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Jim Kelley wrote:
You argued that power propagates and
reflects, and I explained that it doesn't.

Jim, here's a posting from last year that proves your assertion
to be false. I agreed with you last year that power doesn't
flow and isn't reflected. I agreed with you that it is energy
that flows and is reflected. I agreed with you that power is
measured at a point. Seems an apology is in order.

Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Cecil Moore
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 14:28:20 -0600
Subject: Additional Line Losses Due to SWR

Jim Kelley wrote:
The crux of
the phenomenological problem is that power does not flow or move, nor is
it something that is reflected.

But energy does flow and move and is something that can be reflected.
You can easily see the energy packets using a TDR. Without energy,
those pulses wouldn't exist. The energy is obviously in the pulse,
where the voltage and current are.

And joules of energy flowing past a point is joules/sec, i.e. power,
by IEEE definition.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Jim Kelley wrote:
"---power does not flow or move, nor is it something that can be
reflected."

From the Random House American College Dictionary:
Power is the ability to do or act. It is the time rate of transferring
or transforming energy. It is work done or energy transferred per unit
of time.

The power to do or act can be moved from one location to another. A
power house is an electrical generating station where some other form of
energy is converted to electricity which is very flexible in
application.

From the power house, the power (ability to do or act) is transported by
power transmission lines to the places it is used.

Since the wavelength at 60 Hz is 5 million meters, (5000 km), power
transmission lines aren`t long enough to produce standing waves which
are caused by reflections.

Radio-frequency transmission lines are often long enough to show the
effects of reflections and the standing waves produced by those
reflections.

Power flows in r-f lines and it is reflected at impedance
discontinuities accordimg to the most knowledgeable experts. F.E. Terman
is my favorite.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Whatever floats your boat, Richard. If you need to think of power as an
'ability' that flows through an electrical pipe, then I think you should
think of it that way.

73, Jim

Richard Harrison wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:
"---power does not flow or move, nor is it something that can be
reflected."

From the Random House American College Dictionary:
Power is the ability to do or act. It is the time rate of transferring
or transforming energy. It is work done or energy transferred per unit
of time.

The power to do or act can be moved from one location to another. A
power house is an electrical generating station where some other form of
energy is converted to electricity which is very flexible in
application.

From the power house, the power (ability to do or act) is transported by
power transmission lines to the places it is used.

Since the wavelength at 60 Hz is 5 million meters, (5000 km), power
transmission lines aren`t long enough to produce standing waves which
are caused by reflections.

Radio-frequency transmission lines are often long enough to show the
effects of reflections and the standing waves produced by those
reflections.

Power flows in r-f lines and it is reflected at impedance
discontinuities accordimg to the most knowledgeable experts. F.E. Terman
is my favorite.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI