On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 04:25:56 -0400, "Fred W4JLE"
wrote:

Good lord Richard, did you check the reference? It was a friggen joke!

Hi Fred,

Yes, so was my response. ;-)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:08:49 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

No, it doesn't.

Hi Fred,

This is the rest of the joke.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Cecil Moore wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, the only argument we have left
is whether there is enough time for wave cancellation to
actually take place.

You mean that bit about how you think the waves first move in the
reflected direction a little tiny bit and THEN cancel? Yes, you do need
to rethink that. If they're equal in amplitude and opposite in phase,
there's cancellation - at any value of t. In other words, the waves are
prevented from reflecting. They don't reflect first, then disappear.

73, AC6XG

Cecil Moore wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:

Perhaps I was deluded by all your arguing about it. :-)


I'm saying, "I agree"

A landmark in r.r.a.a history ladies and gentlemen. Cecil Moore says he
agrees with Jim Kelley. Let me wipe a tear from my eye and cherish this
moment. Of course "I agree" was in quotation marks and the agreement
lasted just long enough for him to type those four words. He then
continued arguing and badgering his hapless correspondent. :-(

ac6xg

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:50:45 -0700, Jim Kelley
wrote:
They don't reflect first, then disappear.

Hi Jim,

Ah yes, the first dip of the toes into the water. How are you going
to walk home on stumps after the shark feeds? ;-)

Celebrating your legacy I see.

I suppose in the next four years we get to see you trimmed to the
knees as you revisit this shallow end of the pool.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:


Celebrating your legacy I see.

If you say so. I'd like to know what it is that you are doing?

ac6xg

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 10:30:52 -0700, Jim Kelley
wrote:
Celebrating your legacy I see.

If you say so. I'd like to know what it is that you are doing?

Hi Jim,

Getting ready to go to Canada for the afternoon; and gathering
information for London later this month.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Jim Kelley wrote:
You mean that bit about how you think the waves first move in the
reflected direction a little tiny bit and THEN cancel? Yes, you do need
to rethink that. If they're equal in amplitude and opposite in phase,
there's cancellation - at any value of t. In other words, the waves are
prevented from reflecting. They don't reflect first, then disappear.

If they don't reflect first and then disappear, they don't exist
at all. But we know that reflected waves indeed exist and through
deduction can see how they must exist or else cause-and-effect is
violated. So your assertion that they never existed in the first
place is riddled with contradictions that I am unable to resolve.

So I ask again for the umteenth time. Given the rearward-traveling
reflected wave from the mismatched load encountering the match point,
exactly what turns that energy and momentum around and causes it to
flow back toward the load in the opposite direction? If not wave
cancellation, then what?

You simply cannot have it both ways. If the canceled waves don't
exist before they are cancel, they never existed at all and
therefore wave cancellation cannot exist at all. What you propose
is clearly a violation of cause-and-effect.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Hey Cecil,

The superposition of waves which are equal in amplitude and out of phase
equals zero at any time t. There is no time t in the steady state when
reflected waves to the left of the discontinuity can exist. The whole
point of the exercise is to prevent reflections. You're proposing that
the reflection is first allowed, and then it gets cancelled, but not
really cuz then it has to turn around somehow and go back the other way.
Let it drop man.

ac6xg

Cecil Moore wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:

You mean that bit about how you think the waves first move in the
reflected direction a little tiny bit and THEN cancel? Yes, you do
need to rethink that. If they're equal in amplitude and opposite in
phase, there's cancellation - at any value of t. In other words, the
waves are prevented from reflecting. They don't reflect first, then
disappear.


If they don't reflect first and then disappear, they don't exist
at all. But we know that reflected waves indeed exist and through
deduction can see how they must exist or else cause-and-effect is
violated. So your assertion that they never existed in the first
place is riddled with contradictions that I am unable to resolve.

So I ask again for the umteenth time. Given the rearward-traveling
reflected wave from the mismatched load encountering the match point,
exactly what turns that energy and momentum around and causes it to
flow back toward the load in the opposite direction? If not wave
cancellation, then what?

You simply cannot have it both ways. If the canceled waves don't
exist before they are cancel, they never existed at all and
therefore wave cancellation cannot exist at all. What you propose
is clearly a violation of cause-and-effect.

Jim Kelley wrote:
The superposition of waves which are equal in amplitude and out of phase
equals zero at any time t. There is no time t in the steady state when
reflected waves to the left of the discontinuity can exist.

I agree and have never said they could. However, they do exist *at*
the impedance discontinuity, the point at which they are canceled.
To say the terms in the S-parameter equations don't ever exist in
the first place is ridiculous. That throws the entire S-parameter
analysis out the window.

The whole
point of the exercise is to prevent reflections. You're proposing that
the reflection is first allowed, and then it gets cancelled, but not
really cuz then it has to turn around somehow and go back the other way.

It is a no-brainer to know that all energy heads toward the load
because everything heads toward the load at the match point in
a matched system. Reflections are prevented by the cancellation
of two reflected waves. If those two reflected waves never exist,
as you assert, how the heck can they engage in wave cancellation?
You are obviously violating the rules of cause and effect. It
is my understanding that can only happen at the quantum level
in physics. So you are in violation of the conventional laws of
physics.

Here's the question that you have avoided like the plague and
refuse to answer. Until you answer this question, your postings
are simply gut feelings.

Given the reflected energy wave from a mismatched load barreling
toward the source at the speed of light, what phenomenon of physics
causes the energy and momentum in that wave to reverse direction?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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