Reg Edwards wrote:
Errr, no, the meter is telling what it sees at the point of
measurement.

=====================================

But the meter is not seeing an SWR because an SWR does not exist.

Nonsense.

Where is the 50-ohm transmission line on which the SWR is imagined or
supposed to lie?

In my personal case, there is 50 Ohm transmission line between the
transceiver and the SWR meter, then a length of line to a coax switch,
then several lines out to antennas.

You seem fixated on haveing some magical length of transmission line
being necessary for a SWR to exist. This is nonsense.

As you are unable to answer that question, the remainder of your
argument (which, as I say, arises because of the SWR meter misleading
misnomer) falls flat on its face.

You are an intelligent person. I don't doubt you have no problems
with understanding what the so-called SWR meter really indicates. But
you didn't learn this from observations of the SWR meter - as you
already know it tells lies!

Babble.

A SWR meter indicates what is. Knowing what the reading really means
is a matter of education, not veracity.

Just to reiterate, the so-called SWR meter indicates only whether or
not the load on the transmitter is a resistive 50 ohms. If it is not
50 ohms it will not tell you what it actually is. Not that you need to
know what it actually is because you will readjust your tuner, without
thinking about it, to make it equal to 50 ohms. Which corresponds to
no deflection of the meter needle.

With some education and multiple measurements, you can caluclate
the actual impedance if one desires.

What tuner? What makes you believe everyone has a tuner?

The TLI is a very useful and valuable device. It does not lead
novices and old-wives (who ought to know better) into false ideas, or
cause confusion and misunderstandings within the amateur fraternity.
Professionals dismiss SWR for what it is worth anyway.

The only one I see confused is you and professionals use SWR all the
time and in many systems it is extremely important.

Goodby to SWR except on lines where it matters and where it can be
measured. Which, in practice, are very few.

If one knows what they are doing, SWR can always be measured.

---
Reg, G4FGQ.



--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Jim wrote,

If one knows what they are doing, SWR can always be measured.

===================================

NOT on a line which isn't there. QED.
---
Reg.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:20:14 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
wrote:
Jim wrote,
If one knows what they are doing, SWR can always be measured.
NOT on a line which isn't there. QED.

Hi Reg,

Which only proves Jim is correct, in that you reject the facility to
do it with a line. My SWR meters do in fact have a 50 Ohm line
transiting from the gozinta to the comesouta. Your poor choice of
vendor, or poor solution implemented in design is your own problem,
not that of the world's.

I see that you still enjoy its mutilated discussion to the obvious
neglect of magnetrons. Much better than flogging Kelvinator, I
suppose.

Now there's an image, you going nose to nose with him. He'd send you
back to lower 6th for missing the bloody obvious.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Reg Edwards wrote:
Jim wrote,


If one knows what they are doing, SWR can always be measured.


===================================

NOT on a line which isn't there. QED.
---
Reg.

Perhaps this is a dumb question Reg, but if the transmission line isn't
there, how does RF get from the transmitter to the antenna?

Thanks, ac6xg

Jim Kelley wrote:



Reg Edwards wrote:

Jim wrote,


If one knows what they are doing, SWR can always be measured.


===================================

NOT on a line which isn't there. QED.
---
Reg.


Perhaps this is a dumb question Reg, but if the transmission line isn't
there, how does RF get from the transmitter to the antenna?

Thanks, ac6xg



Well there's wave guide, there's printed circuit traces, there's wire.
OPPS.... those are transmission lines.

Dave WD9BDZ

Perhaps this is a dumb question Reg, but if the transmission line
isn't
there, how does RF get from the transmitter to the antenna?

Thanks, ac6xg

=============================

The 50-ohm line on which the SWR is supposed to be measured is between
the transmitter and the so-called SWR meter.

If the transmitter is connected directly to the meter, (as it usually
is, very often it is inside the transmitter on the front panel) there
is no line and no SWR on it which can be measured.

Neverthess, the meter still provides a reading of SWR. Obviously it
is telling lies and causes confusion and misunderstanding to novices
about what is really happening within their equipment. In fact, just
as it has been doing since Joker, Richard Clark, entered the thread.

Some people force themselves to imagine a 1/4-wavelength transmission
inside the little box in a vain endeavor to explain how an SWR meter
works.

Actually the meter indicates whether or not the transmitter is loaded
with 50-ohms - and nothing else. It is an HF resistance bridge to
which its circuit reduces.

But, as I say, it is a very useful, almost indispensible instrument.
It is a TLI.
----
Reg.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:49:00 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
wrote:

In fact, just
as it has been doing since Joker, Richard Clark, entered the thread.


Aw Reggie,

You are getting emotional because you were caught spitting on
Kelvinator and telling us it was the London fog.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Reg Edwards wrote:

Perhaps this is a dumb question Reg, but if the transmission line

isn't

there, how does RF get from the transmitter to the antenna?

Thanks, ac6xg


=============================

The 50-ohm line on which the SWR is supposed to be measured is between
the transmitter and the so-called SWR meter.

If the transmitter is connected directly to the meter, (as it usually
is, very often it is inside the transmitter on the front panel) there
is no line and no SWR on it which can be measured.

What you're saying is that there's a line connecting the transmitter to
the meter, but there isn't a line connecting the transmitter to the
meter. I'd have difficulty defending such a position.

Neverthess, the meter still provides a reading of SWR. Obviously it
is telling lies and causes confusion and misunderstanding to novices
about what is really happening within their equipment. In fact, just
as it has been doing since Joker, Richard Clark, entered the thread.

Some people force themselves to imagine a 1/4-wavelength transmission
inside the little box in a vain endeavor to explain how an SWR meter
works.

Actually the meter indicates whether or not the transmitter is loaded
with 50-ohms - and nothing else.

I don't think the meter really knows what impedance the transmitter is
loaded with. As far as I can tell, it only knows how many volts and
amps gozinta one port and/or compared with how many volts and amps
gozinta the other port.

But I agree that some people read an awful lot into the measurements
they make with one of these devices.

It is an HF resistance bridge to
which its circuit reduces.

True enough.

But, as I say, it is a very useful, almost indispensible instrument.
It is a TLI.

I like to think of it more as a reflectometer.

73 de ac6xg

Reg Edwards wrote:


Perhaps this is a dumb question Reg, but if the transmission line
isn't
there, how does RF get from the transmitter to the antenna?

Thanks, ac6xg

=============================

The 50-ohm line on which the SWR is supposed to be measured is between
the transmitter and the so-called SWR meter.

No, the SWR being measured is on the load side of the meter.

If the transmitter is connected directly to the meter, (as it usually
is, very often it is inside the transmitter on the front panel) there
is no line and no SWR on it which can be measured.

Bzzzt, wrong answer. SWR is measured on the output side of the meter,
not the input.

Neverthess, the meter still provides a reading of SWR. Obviously it
is telling lies and causes confusion and misunderstanding to novices
about what is really happening within their equipment. In fact, just
as it has been doing since Joker, Richard Clark, entered the thread.

Some people force themselves to imagine a 1/4-wavelength transmission
inside the little box in a vain endeavor to explain how an SWR meter
works.

That would be inane.

All one need do is realize the meter measures toward the load.

Actually the meter indicates whether or not the transmitter is loaded
with 50-ohms - and nothing else. It is an HF resistance bridge to
which its circuit reduces.

But, as I say, it is a very useful, almost indispensible instrument.
It is a TLI.
----
Reg.



--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Jim says,
No, the SWR being measured is on the load side of the meter.
=========================================
Jim,

I have difficulty in telling you this without hurting your feelings.
Or perhaps you are just joking and pulling my leg. Try the other one -
its got bells on.

I will assume you are not joking. You clearly havn't the foggiest idea
of how the so-called SWR meter works. Although you may be in good
company - including not a few professional engineers who have picked
up old-wives' tales from radio amateurs. And have been led astray by
the meter being called something which it isn't.

The meter indicates SWR when placed at the ANTENNA end of the line. It
is the antenna which does the terminating. And the meter gives the
correct answers only when the line Zo = 50 ohms.

If there is a tuner or matching network in the line then the meter
will indicate SWR on the line between the transmitter and the tuner -
provided the meter is placed next to the tuner.

When there is no appreciable length of line between transmitter and
tuner (as is the very common case) there is no line on which to
measure SWR. But the meter will indicate an SWR - and tells lies.

But there's nothing to worry about just because the meter is
indicating SWR nonsense. The meter is telling you what you really
want to know, its exactly why you placed it there - whether or not
the transmitter is loaded with 50 ohms.
----
Reg.