At great risk, let me try this approach.

I have a 100 turn 2" diameter #18 gauge wire air core inductor. There
are 100 turns, so there is about 630 inches or 32 feet of wire in the
coil.

I have a Network Analyzer with port to port time delay measurement
capability. It measures coaxial cables very well, and even clip leads.

Cecil, please predict or guess the group delay of this inductor at 3.8
MHz. Tell us all what that group delay means for your wave theory.

Just come close, and I will tell you what it measures. I can even print
the plot just for you.

73 Tom

wrote:

I have a 100 turn 2" diameter #18 gauge wire air core inductor. There
are 100 turns, so there is about 630 inches or 32 feet of wire in the
coil.

I have a Network Analyzer with port to port time delay measurement
capability. It measures coaxial cables very well, and even clip leads.

Cecil, please predict or guess the group delay of this inductor at 3.8
MHz. Tell us all what that group delay means for your wave theory.

Tom, I have no idea since you chose not to post the length of
the coil or the inductance of the coil or the Q of the coil
or even the turns/inch of the coil.

Is your Network Analyzer equipped with current probes? If not,
you are wasting your time.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

I wrote and all can read:

Fri, Mar 10 2006 9:13 pm
Email:
Groups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Cecil,


I have a 100 turn 2 inch diameter air wound inductor of pretty good
quality. It is 10 inches long.

To which Cecil Moore replied:
Tom, I have no idea since you chose not to post the length of
the coil or the inductance of the coil or the Q of the coil
or even the turns/inch of the coil.

Cecil: "I have no idea since you CHOSE to not post...blah blah blah"

Fact: I already had posted coil length, number of turns, diameter, and
I said the inductor has "pretty good quality".

wrote:
I wrote and all can read:

Everyone please take a close look at the lengths to which
Tom will go to to deceive the readers. He has falsified
the following postings. He mixed and matched, cut and
pasted, from multiple postings made at different times
for the sole purpose of deceiving. That cannot happen
accidentally. That is a deliberately unethical act, a
lie about what I posted, and is probably criminal.

Please observe to what lengths Tom is willing to go to
divert the technical issues and hide the technical truth
in order to protect his lumped-circuit myths.

Here's is the entire posting: Where did Tom give the coil length?
************************************************** ****************
wrote:

I have a 100 turn 2" diameter #18 gauge wire air core inductor. There
are 100 turns, so there is about 630 inches or 32 feet of wire in the
coil.

I have a Network Analyzer with port to port time delay measurement
capability. It measures coaxial cables very well, and even clip leads.

Cecil, please predict or guess the group delay of this inductor at 3.8
MHz. Tell us all what that group delay means for your wave theory.

Tom, I have no idea since you chose not to post the length of
the coil or the inductance of the coil or the Q of the coil
or even the turns/inch of the coil.

Is your Network Analyzer equipped with current probes? If not,
you are wasting your time.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
************************************************** **************************
Fri, Mar 10 2006 9:13 pm
Email:
Groups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Cecil,

The posting I replied to was the following made at 7:34pm which
did not contain the length of the coil. I read this one first and
replied to it. It is absolutely true that Tom chose not to post
the length of the coil in the 7:34pm posting to which I replied.

Tom wrote at 7:34pm:
I have a 100 turn 2" diameter #18 gauge wire air core inductor. There
are 100 turns, so there is about 630 inches or 32 feet of wire in the
coil.

See? The length of the coil is NOT there.

The following quote is from Tom's *second* posting made at 8:13pm,
almost half an hour later. His *first* posting didn't say how
long the coil was. I read Tom's *first* posting first and replied
to it before I read his second posting.

Tom wrote at 8:13pm:
I have a 100 turn 2 inch diameter air wound inductor of pretty good
quality. It is 10 inches long.

To which Cecil Moore replied:

Tom, I have no idea since you chose not to post the length of
the coil or the inductance of the coil or the Q of the coil
or even the turns/inch of the coil.

That quote is my reply to Tom's *first* posting. I had
not read your *second* posting yet. Everything I said was
absolutely true about his first posting.

How unethical can one get? Tom cut and pasted multiple postings
from different times to try to deceive the readers. Not only is
it unethical but it is probably also illegal.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Now, now, gentlemen, there's no need to re-start the Civil War. Put
away your literary weapons.

The slaves have all been freed and we now have computers.

A 100 turn coil, 10 inches long, 2 inches in diameter, has an
inductance of 102 microhenrys, a Q of aproximately 380 at F = 1.9 MHz,
and the self-resonant frequency is 12.0 MHz.

Its radiation resistance at 1.9 MHz is negligible.

It is near enough to being exactly 100 microhenrys to justify it being
called an Inductance Standard.
----
Reg.

Reg Edwards wrote:
A 100 turn coil, 10 inches long, 2 inches in diameter, has an
inductance of 102 microhenrys, a Q of aproximately 380 at F = 1.9 MHz,
and the self-resonant frequency is 12.0 MHz. Its radiation resistance
at 1.9 MHz is negligible.

Good stuff Reg. Modeling it as a transmission line, what would
be its Z0 and VF?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

I think Reg's estimate of both inductance and first self-resonance (or
is that self-anti-resonance?? ;-) are a bit high. Methods I trust all
predict about 97uH and self-resonance at very close to 8MHz, for a coil
wound with 16AWG to a 2-inch inner diameter. (Inductance would be a
bit lower if that's the wire center-to-center diameter.) Winding and
measuring one to see which estimate is closer is left as an exercise
for the reader, but I wouldn't trust either Reg's or my estimates on
this for building an inductance standard (and besides, I'd build such a
standard with a lower L/D).

A transmission line model shows 13.5 electrical degrees of line at
1.9MHz, at about 6140 ohms. You should probably look up an article by
John Mezak that appeared in "RF Design" some years ago before you to
applying that info willy-nilly, but I don't really expect you will.
Have fun.


Cecil Moore wrote:
Reg Edwards wrote:
A 100 turn coil, 10 inches long, 2 inches in diameter, has an
inductance of 102 microhenrys, a Q of aproximately 380 at F = 1.9 MHz,
and the self-resonant frequency is 12.0 MHz. Its radiation resistance
at 1.9 MHz is negligible.

Good stuff Reg. Modeling it as a transmission line, what would
be its Z0 and VF?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Reg Edwards wrote:
A 100 turn coil, 10 inches long, 2 inches in diameter, has an
inductance of 102 microhenrys, a Q of aproximately 380 at F = 1.9 MHz,
and the self-resonant frequency is 12.0 MHz.

I'll bet the measured self-resonant frequency would be lower
if mounted as a base-loading coil on my pickup.

Seems the VF of the coil is 0.041 based on 10" being 1/4WL
at 12 MHz. Assuming that VF holds down to 1.9 MHz we
can calculate the electrical length of the coil on 1.9 MHz
which will be the same as the phase shift through the coil.

So I get about ~14 degrees of phase shift through that coil
at 1.9 MHz assuming the self-resonant frequency really
is 12 MHz at the spot where the coil is mounted.

If the coil were used on 3.8 MHz, the phase shift would
be ~28 degrees.

But my 75m bugcatcher coil shows to be self-resonant at
6.6 MHz while sitting there on my pickup being driven
by an MFJ-259B. It is 6.5" long. When 6.5" is 1/4WL
at 6.6 MHz, the VF = 0.0145, considerably lower than
the coil above and operating much closer to its self-
resonant frequency.

A length of 6.5" coil with a VF of 0.145 on 4 MHz is
~55 degrees of phase shift. And indeed the net current
at the top of the coil drops to about 2/3 of what it
is at the bottom.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:

Reg Edwards wrote:

A 100 turn coil, 10 inches long, 2 inches in diameter, has an
inductance of 102 microhenrys, a Q of aproximately 380 at F = 1.9 MHz,
and the self-resonant frequency is 12.0 MHz.


I'll bet the measured self-resonant frequency would be lower
if mounted as a base-loading coil on my pickup.

Seems the VF of the coil is 0.041 based on 10" being 1/4WL
at 12 MHz. Assuming that VF holds down to 1.9 MHz we
can calculate the electrical length of the coil on 1.9 MHz
which will be the same as the phase shift through the coil.

So I get about ~14 degrees of phase shift through that coil
at 1.9 MHz assuming the self-resonant frequency really
is 12 MHz at the spot where the coil is mounted.

If the coil were used on 3.8 MHz, the phase shift would
be ~28 degrees.

But my 75m bugcatcher coil shows to be self-resonant at
6.6 MHz while sitting there on my pickup being driven
by an MFJ-259B. It is 6.5" long. When 6.5" is 1/4WL
at 6.6 MHz, the VF = 0.0145, considerably lower than
the coil above and operating much closer to its self-
resonant frequency.

A length of 6.5" coil with a VF of 0.145 on 4 MHz is
~55 degrees of phase shift. And indeed the net current
at the top of the coil drops to about 2/3 of what it
is at the bottom.

Ok, I have had a thought. And I had to go back to where everyone,
starting with Cecil, was talking about or responding to a constant delay
through the coil.

Picking a nice round number, say 55 degrees, I would then need 35
degrees of whip above that coil to make a quarter wave resonant antenna,
correct?

So, it should work just as well, using Cecil's reasoning, if I displace
that coil to another position. He did measure the coil as a standalone
device which causes a fixed delay, correct?

Ok, so now I move that coil up the antenna, not much, say 2 degrees.
Now I have 2 degrees below the coil, and 33 above it. It will still be
resonant, right? Now I move it another 2, and another and another,
until it it at the top, with no stinger. With the reasoning I have
heard from Cecil, it will always be resonant.

tom
K0TAR

Reg wrote:
"Now, now gentlemen, there is no need to re-start the Civil War."

In Texas we call it the War Between the States!

The following is from my daughter Linda Edwards (not related to Reg) who
lives in London:
The scene is on a mexican golf course and the "Federales" are
investigating an apparent homicide. Investigator asks: "What was the
murder weapon?" Reply is: "A golf gun." Investigator asks "What`s a golf
gun?" Reply is:
"Don`t know but it sure made a hole in Juan!"

best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI