Richard Clark wrote:
Neither Cecil nor Yuri made any measurements.

I made self-resonance measurements on loading coils
and standing wave current measurements on a 6m dipole.
W8JI said my measurements were in error. W7EL said
my measurements agreed with EZNEC.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:


Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever
going to understand what's really going on by superposing
waves to the point where half the information is lost?


Cecil,

That question explains everything. It demonstrates conclusively that you
no understanding of superposition.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Gene Fuller wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:


Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever
going to understand what's really going on by superposing
waves to the point where half the information is lost?



Cecil,

That question explains everything. It demonstrates conclusively that you
no understanding of superposition.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

It also demonstrates that I can't proofread two sentences.

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:12:32 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
Neither Cecil nor Yuri made any measurements.

I made self-resonance measurements on loading coils
and standing wave current measurements on a 6m dipole.
W8JI said my measurements were in error. W7EL said
my measurements agreed with EZNEC.

My appologies, so you did.

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:53:40 GMT, Gene Fuller
wrote:

Gene Fuller wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:


Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever
going to understand what's really going on by superposing
waves to the point where half the information is lost?



Cecil,

That question explains everything. It demonstrates conclusively that you
no understanding of superposition.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

It also demonstrates that I can't proofread two sentences.

Perhaps half the information was lost by superpositioning them.

Gene Fuller wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever
going to understand what's really going on by superposing
waves to the point where half the information is lost?

That question explains everything. It demonstrates conclusively that you
no understanding of superposition.

Here's what one of the experts told me about superposition.

Gene Fuller, W4SZ wrote:
In a standing wave antenna problem, such as the one you describe,
there is no remaining phase information. Any specific phase
characteristics of the traveling waves died out when the startup
transients died out.

Phase is gone. Kaput. Vanished. Cannot be recovered. Never to be
seen again.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Gene Fuller wrote:

Gene Fuller wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever
going to understand what's really going on by superposing
waves to the point where half the information is lost?

That question explains everything. It demonstrates conclusively that
you no understanding of superposition.

It also demonstrates that I can't proofread two sentences.

Take two PSK signals, superpose them through the same coax,
and see how much information is lost.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Well, Richard, we have it on good authority that what's really going on
is just mathematical abstraction to 'splain the wave BS. Or something
like that. Whaddaya think? Maybe current and charge are just a
pigment of our imaginations?

Cheers,
Tom

On 21 Apr 2006 17:26:03 -0700, "K7ITM" wrote:

Maybe current and charge are just a pigment of our imaginations?

Hi Tom,

I would say that it is not definitely black or white, it is a matter
of gray.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Cecil Moore wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote:

Back on topic now. Was there ever any correlation between the
measurements made by Cecil and Yuri with the information and tests
performed by Tom W8JI? I had asked the question a couple times, but have
no answer yet. Maybe the message got lost.


Might have been when I was out of town. Except for a
single toroidal coil anomaly, all of the measurements
show a different magnitude of current at the two ends
of the coils. Most of my measurements have been at
the self-resonant frequency of a loading coil.

That isn't the design frequency though, is it?

A 75m mobile bugcatcher coil is part of a standing wave
antenna with near-equal forward and reflected currents
flowing in opposite directions (phasors rotating in
opposite directions). As a result, the standing wave
current on the antenna has essentially the same phase
as the source current all up and down the antenna
*whether a loading coil exists or not*. Standing wave
current on a mobile antenna cannot be used to measure
phase shift or delay through a wire or a coil.

That standing wave current is of the form,
I = Io*cos(kx)*cos(wt), and cannot be used to determine
phase shift. So the major measurement mistakes were
not in the magnitudes, which are relatively easy to measure,
but in the phase-delay measurements, which were invalid.

The major conceptual mistake concerns standing waves,
not coils. It appears that some people didn't even realize
that they were dealing with a standing wave current on a
standing wave antenna.

The best estimates of actual delays through the coils seems
to come from the Dr. Corum IEEE paper where formulas
are given for the VF and Z0 of a coil. For the particular
coil being modeled in EZNEC, the VF formula yields
~0.02, or about 37 degrees for a 6" long coil on 4 MHz.


I'm not sure I have this straight. I think I understand Tom's info, yet
this has me completely baffled.

Would the short answer be that you do not find any correlation?

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -