RadioBanter - Noise level between two ant types

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Noise level between two ant types

Cecil Moore wrote:
But now let's allow signals to be introduced into the thread.
My dipole was arcing once per second at the coax connector.
I couldn't hear any signals. I estimate the signal to noise
ratio under those conditions to be zero. Would you disagree?

So now you are saying you were talking about arcs in connectors?
Talk about diversions!

You SPECIFICALLY proposed the noise came from millions of dust
particles hitting the antenna each second. RF noise generated directly
by charged particles hitting the antenna. No arcs, no corona according
to YOU. Not me!

I modified my dipole into a folded dipole. The arcing ceased
and I could then hear signals. I estimate the signal to noise
ratio was not zero any more. Would you disagree?

Well, I would agree you have a VERY screwed up system to start with if
you had a big antenna without a leak resistance that offered a high
resistance or reactance at radio frequencies.

I've said all from the very start no one should be so careless as to
float the antenna.

I really question the IQ of anyone who asserts that eliminating
arcing in a system doesn't reduce the noise. I assume you are
not a member of MENSA. :-)

Nice tactic. Attack the other guy while totally changing what you
originally claimed.
Of course anyone can read back and see you were the one who claimed the
noise was from particles hitting the antenna.

Anyway, I'm glad you realized your folded dipole nonsense about the dc
loop stopping p-static from particle noise as they hit the antenna was
just that, and now you realize it is charge differences and arcing and
forms of arcing that causes the problems.

Pretty soon you will realize the largest charge difference is from the
air and things in the air around the antenna and earth that causes the
problem, and that grounding the antenna doesn't reduce that problem.

There's hope for you yet!

73 Tom

Noise level between two ant types

Cecil Moore wrote:

How does it feel to be caught in a bold-faced lie?
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

Only you would know that Cecil.

Noise level between two ant types

Tom Donaly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
Tom Donaly wrote:

gravity wrote:

"Tom Donaly" wrote in message
om...

Dave wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:

Tom Donaly wrote:

Where's the experimental evidence, Cecil?

Ever heard of Ben Franklin? :-)

73, ac6xg

Every winter here in New England we run numerous experiments,
every time
I walk across the living room and touch a metal door knob.

The US military has an ESD specification of 25 KV @ 5 KOhms from a
healthy capacitor as a simulator.

Electro static discharge on antennas has been around for years. It is

real!

Dry Climate and Wind are all that's needed. Now, is the Physics at
the
air molecule level [Oxygen, Nitrogen, etc.], ionized Oxygen or
Nitrogen
atoms, charged dust particle level [that just begs the issue ...
how did
the dust get charged?], Van De Graff level, etc.? Who knows?

But, the antenna ESD is a very REAL effect. You can hypothesize the
cause all day. To solve the problem at the system level, I added
an ESD
bleed into my antenna switches.

I'm going to filter this thread to the circular file.

No one said ESD didn't exist. But you hit the nail on the head so far
as wind caused ESD, "Who knows?" I don't, and neither does Cecil,
although he thinks he does.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

i thought it came from distant thunderstorms?

and if wind blows an ELF system around, it does get noisier. i believe
that's due to physical movement of the antenna system.

Gravity

You could be right, who knows? Certainly not the people who
are afraid to experiment.

Just as a point of info Tom. Do you perform experiments to prove
or disprove matters to your satisfaction on everything before
accepting it? That takes a very special person to be ultimately
skeptical.

Your posts would indicate that... or maybe that you just enjoy
busting on Cecil. 8^)

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

Actually, when it comes to some of the issues raised on this newsgroup,
yes, I do. I don't see why I should believe what Cecil makes up in his
head just because he makes it up in his head.

Okay, Tom. I'll accept that you have personal experimental results for
your statements. Not many do.

I'm not sure that anyone here believes Cecil just because he is Cecil.
I don't. Some times I see him posting his way into some very deep holes...

"I can't believe _that_!" said Alice.
"Can't you?" the Queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again: draw a
long breath, and shut your eyes."
Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said: "one can't believe
impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I
was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes
I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. There
goes the shawl again!"

Cecil and the White Queen would get along well together.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

I am corrected. You both determine everything experimentally and enjoy
busting on Cecil. I assumed an "And" situation, while it was actually an
"OR" situation.. 8^)

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

Noise level between two ant types

Cecil Moore wrote:

Then the argument boils down to whether the noise level threshold
is *exactly* equal to the corona threshold. That means there is zero
noise until 100 uA/cm^2 starts to flow through the air accompaning
the corona. Can you appreciate how ridiculous such an argument
really is?

Well, suppose you have a #18 ga stranded wire composed of 7 strands of #26.
One strand is sticking up all by itself. The end of the strand (if cut off
squarely) is about 0.0013 cm^2. So a current flow of 0.13 uA from the end of
this strand is 100 uA/cm^2.

And, the situation is exacerbated by wire with smaller strands and with
strands more pointed than by being squarely cut off.

John

Noise level between two ant types

John - KD5YI wrote:
Well, suppose you have a #18 ga stranded wire composed of 7 strands of
#26. One strand is sticking up all by itself. The end of the strand (if
cut off squarely) is about 0.0013 cm^2. So a current flow of 0.13 uA
from the end of this strand is 100 uA/cm^2.

We can suppose all sorts of conditions to obtain corona.
There's absolutely no argument about that. The argument
is whether corona occurs 100% of the time on any and all
antennas with charged particle static. If corona occurs
only 99.9% of the time, the corona gang loses the argument.

The argument is whether corona *always* accompanies charged
particle noise. That's an exclusive assertion that there
exists no cases where corona doesn't accompany charged
particle noise.

I fully agree that corona *often* accompanies charged particle
noise but that's an inclusive assertion.

If enough particles hit the antenna to just
barely hear the noise on a receiver, the corona crowd says
that corona caused the noise. I would like to see some proof
for such a statement so far out of mainstream physics.

Can we suppose a condition where corona won't happen?
How about a #14 solid wire with rounded ends? Do you think
it could build up enough charged particle noise to be heard
in a receiver without the existence of corona?
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types

Cecil Moore wrote:
....

Going from a dipole to a folded dipole eliminated my arcing
problem.

Thank you for sharing that with us, Cecil.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Noise level between two ant types

Tom Donaly wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
Going from a dipole to a folded dipole eliminated my arcing
problem.

Thank you for sharing that with us, Cecil.

Well, W8JI said going from a dipole to a folded dipole
doesn't change the noise level. Not only did it eliminate
arcing but it probably eliminated any trace of corona.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp