Noise level between two ant types
 

Gene Fuller wrote:
The only issue is what causes the noise heard in the receiver.

Receiver noise has many causes. Corona is certainly one
of them. There is absolutely no argument about that.

Please provide a reference that says clear-sky wind-
driven charged dust particles cannot cause receiver
noise.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
I've been away for a few days. Did Cecil ever figure out what was wrong
with his idea about the folded dipole?

Nothing wrong with that idea. I implemented that idea when
I was in Arizona to eliminate arcing at the coax connector
which certainly reduced the noise level.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
I've been away for a few days.

Then you probably need to go back and read the web references
that I have posted in your absence. Here's one of them:

http://www.esda.org/basics/part1.cfm

"Virtually all materials, including water and
*dirt particles in the air*,
can be triboelectrically charged."

Since dirt particles in the air can be charged then they
can also transfer their charges to bare-wire dipoles which
obviously causes noise.

Also, it seems to me that you have been confusing corona
with the electric fairweather field. A couple of days
ago, I posted about six web references on the subject.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Gene Fuller wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
Where is the (corona) energy coming from?

Who cares?

Probably anyone reading this thread. On a clear sky day,
what is the source of energy for your sustained
100 uA/cm^2 corona discharge? That energy has to come
from somewhere. Where does your corona energy come from?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

Gene Fuller wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote:
Corona does not require ANY preexisting current, and certainly not
the
global "fairweather" current. The high fields near a sharp point will
create all the corona current necessary.

Where is the energy coming from?


Who cares? Do you have your energy hammer out? Does every problem need
to look like an energy nail?

73,
Gene
W4SZ


I've been away for a few days. Did Cecil ever figure out what was wrong
with his idea about the folded dipole?

I was hoping someone else would walk him through it. Or is he stuck on
something else now?

he seems to be writing a manifesto entitled "Particle Theory for Dummies"
with subtitle "W8JI is wrong!".

Gravity


73 Tom

Noise level between two ant types
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
Where is the (corona) energy coming from?

Who cares?

Probably anyone reading this thread. On a clear sky day,
what is the source of energy for your sustained
100 uA/cm^2 corona discharge? That energy has to come
from somewhere. Where does your corona energy come from?

Cecil,

You must have been asleep when your professors at TAMU explained basic
problem solving techniques.

There is often more than one way to correctly address a problem. In the
case of many electrical problems it is possible to follow an approach
that looks at the energy and it is also possible to follow an approach
that looks at forces and fields. Neither approach is wrong, and in the
end both must consistently yield the correct solution. It is often true,
however, that one approach is much easier to pursue, and it therefore
will be preferred.

In this case there is no quantitative information about the sources of
energy, the sinks of energy, or the transport of energy. This is not a
well-bounded system in which the total energy can be easily defined. An
energy-based solution is going to be hard to achieve. Stick to fields
and forces for this one.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Noise level between two ant types
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote:
The only issue is what causes the noise heard in the receiver.

Receiver noise has many causes. Corona is certainly one
of them. There is absolutely no argument about that.

Please provide a reference that says clear-sky wind-
driven charged dust particles cannot cause receiver
noise.

Cecil,

Absolutely no one has stated that clear-sky wind-driven charged dust
particles cannot cause receiver noise.

The entire issue is whether the charged dust leads to corona discharge
or whether the charge from the dust finds it way directly through the
receiver front end and into the audio system.

For some reason you seem to believe that corona can exist only in
environments where strong background fields exist and not in "clear sky"
conditions. I don't know where you came up with that one, but it simply
is not true.

Your own favorite example of an arcing connector would seem to indicate
that there is plenty of charging and voltage build-up on the antenna. If
there is enough voltage to support connector arcing why would there not
be enough voltage to support corona discharge from some sharp point on
the antenna?

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Noise level between two ant types
 

Gene Fuller wrote:
In this case there is no quantitative information about the sources of
energy, the sinks of energy, or the transport of energy. This is not a
well-bounded system in which the total energy can be easily defined. An
energy-based solution is going to be hard to achieve. Stick to fields
and forces for this one.

But there is quantitative information about the
source of energy for corona. You have to ignore
that information because your corona concepts
require violation of the conservation of energy
principle. Where is the energy coming from to
sustain a current flow of 100 uA/cm^2 under a
clear sky?

Fields and forces require a supply of energy. If
there is not enough energy available under certain
fairweather conditions to support your esoteric
corona theories, then those theories are wrong.

Of course a moving airplane can cause corona. The
engine fuel is pumping energy into the system.

Of course an RF transmitter can cause corona. The
transmitter is pumping energy into the system.

Under passive clear-sky fairweather conditions,
what is pumping enough energy into the system to
cause your corona? If you were correct, every lightning
rod and antenna in the world would glow at night
under starry skies. When is the last time you
saw a lightning rod glow at night under perfectly
cloudless skies?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

Gene Fuller wrote:
Absolutely no one has stated that clear-sky wind-driven charged dust
particles cannot cause receiver noise.

On the contrary, Gene, that is not true. W8JI's assertions to
that effect is what started this argument.

wrote:
People actually seem to think the little particles moving through the
air charge the antenna to a different potential than the air around the
antenna ...

All that crud hitting the antenna isn't significantly different in
potential than the air around the element ...

I've never seen a case of precitation static occuring that way.
In every single case I've seen, whether on tall buildings, tall
towers, or antenna hear earth, it has always been corona discharges
from the antenna or objects near the antenna.

The second is what is commonly called P-static. ... This is the
mechanisim I disagree with being caused by particles striking the
antenna.

I have posted many web page references to show that rain, snow,
and dust particles are subject to triboelectric charging. The
fact that W8JI has never seen such is irrelevant. He never saw
George Washington either.

The entire issue is whether the charged dust leads to corona discharge
or whether the charge from the dust finds it way directly through the
receiver front end and into the audio system.

Then the argument boils down to whether the noise level threshold
is *exactly* equal to the corona threshold. That means there is zero
noise until 100 uA/cm^2 starts to flow through the air accompaning
the corona. Can you appreciate how ridiculous such an argument
really is?

There is most probably a region between zero noise and corona
where noise exists and corona doesn't exist.

For some reason you seem to believe that corona can exist only in
environments where strong background fields exist and not in "clear sky"
conditions. I don't know where you came up with that one, but it simply
is not true.

Nope, I never said that. I asked you to prove that corona always
accompanies charged particle noise even under clear sky conditions.
So far, you have offered zero proof. If clear-sky wind-driven charged
particles increase the noise level from S-1 to S-1.1 do you really
expect us to believe that small amount of charge is enough to cause
100 uA/cm^2 of sustained current to flow through thin air? That is
what is needed for corona to exist.

Your own favorite example of an arcing connector would seem to indicate
that there is plenty of charging and voltage build-up on the antenna. If
there is enough voltage to support connector arcing why would there not
be enough voltage to support corona discharge from some sharp point on
the antenna?

That's not the question. The question is given 1% of the charge
necessary to cause arcing, can RF noise exist without corona
existing? If there is just one case of charged particle RF
noise in the entire world in the absence of corona, your
argument is wrong.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Noise level between two ant types
 

wrote:
I've never seen a case of precitation static occuring that way.

ATIS is accredited by the American National Standards Institute (ANSI).

http://www.atis.org/tg2k/_precipitation_static.html

"precipitation static (p-static): Radio interference caused by the
impact of charged particles against an antenna. Note: Precipitation
static may occur in a receiver during certain weather conditions, such
as snowstorms, hailstorms, rainstorms, dust storms, or combinations
thereof."
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp