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#361
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Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote:
chuck wrote: Based on that, it would seem the fairweather field can support corona formation by itself. Even though the fairweather current is 13 magnitudes below the corona current? My understanding is that a strong electric field ionizes the air and leads to formation of a corona. I imagine with a sufficiently strong field, the corona current could be in the pA range. At least I can't imagine why not. It occurs to me that the current due to charge redistribution could be rather significant if numerous particles are striking the antenna in a short time interval. Maybe aggravated by one element of the dipole being grounded and the other floating? I can't comment on that, Cecil. I was trying to keep the geometry simple with a single vertical wire. A grounded vertical wire in the fairweather field will acquire a charge and charged particles striking it should not change the charge on it, but they will cause a redistribution. That redistribution doubtless produces a magnetic field as additional charges flow to/from the earth. It's a fascinating problem. 73, Chuck ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#362
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Noise level between two ant types
chuck wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: chuck wrote: Based on that, it would seem the fairweather field can support corona formation by itself. Even though the fairweather current is 13 magnitudes below the corona current? My understanding is that a strong electric field ionizes the air and leads to formation of a corona. I imagine with a sufficiently strong field, the corona current could be in the pA range. At least I can't imagine why not. Here's an exercise that might add some realism. Calculate the amount of charge a 14 awg 40 meter dipole antenna at 35 feet would have to accumulate in order to generate a strong enough field to cause a corona discharge. (Arcing at the feedpoint doesn't count.) 73, ac6xg |
#363
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Noise level between two ant types
Jim Kelley wrote:
chuck wrote: Cecil Moore wrote: chuck wrote: Based on that, it would seem the fairweather field can support corona formation by itself. Even though the fairweather current is 13 magnitudes below the corona current? My understanding is that a strong electric field ionizes the air and leads to formation of a corona. I imagine with a sufficiently strong field, the corona current could be in the pA range. At least I can't imagine why not. Here's an exercise that might add some realism. Calculate the amount of charge a 14 awg 40 meter dipole antenna at 35 feet would have to accumulate in order to generate a strong enough field to cause a corona discharge. (Arcing at the feedpoint doesn't count.) 73, ac6xg OK. So you understand that it is not necessary that a conductor be charged in order for a corona to be formed. It needs only to be placed in a sufficiently strong electric field. But if there is no external field assumed, then the required charge on the wire would be that which will produce the requisite field intensity at some chosen place on the wire. The "pointier" the place you choose, the smaller the necessary net charge. Any charge on the wire will be distributed over a real wire but concentrated where there are sharp points. As the radius of curvature of a "point" on the wire, such as a dust particle stuck to it, approaches zero, the quantity of charge necessary to cause a corona becomes quite small. That's about as close as I can come to realism, Jim. ;-) 73, Chuck |
#364
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Noise level between two ant types
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:08:03 -0700, Jim Kelley
wrote: Calculate the amount of charge Hi Jim, 3.3 µC (21 tera-electrons) ±3dB 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#365
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Noise level between two ant types
Richard Clark wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:08:03 -0700, Jim Kelley wrote: Calculate the amount of charge Hi Jim, 3.3 µC (21 tera-electrons) ±3dB 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Those numbers are classified! |
#366
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The Google Hypothesis of Guru Elevation - The Guroogle
Richard Clark wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:50:31 GMT, "Tom Donaly" wrote: Notice how he used the Mensa Society post to destroy the discourse? Hi Tom, I notice past membership is one of those unprovable positive facts. there are, alas, people who are soft-minded enough not only to take him seriously, but to agree with him as well. So rare so that Cecil has to offer they support him in secret email. Even this is about hit counts when your thumb is on the scale. ;-) I think Roy had the right idea when he plonked him. The rest of us should probably follow Roy's example. What's the fun in that? Pick one point and drill down; ignore the side topics and drill down; discard the tailored citations and drill down. Everyone of these drillings leads to a dry hole. win-lose (classic American competition) And yes, Mike, busting on Cecil is one pursuit here, we will leave it to you to judge if it is indiscriminant and across the board, or fits to threads dominated 9:1 by your Rodney King of the antennas. Well, sometimes dummies like me get caught up in actually thinking that it is serious discussion. I should know better! I would suggest that a lot of the antagonists do a little better though. All the air goes out of an argument when they just bust on insignificant details. I had a fellow like that who worked for me once. He wouldn't pay much attention to the conversation at hand. But he wanted to show he was involved. So every once in a while he would latch on to a couple words I was saying, and argue past me on the irrelevantly picked up point. I guess that is okay in newsgroups. It is the sort of thing that gets you gone in the workplace.. 8^) I make the mistake of using these groups as a learning tool, when perhaps they are really here as mental professional wrestling? - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Gimme another baton! I broke mine! (classic American entertainment) 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#367
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Noise level between two ant types
chuck wrote:
My understanding is that a strong electric field ionizes the air and leads to formation of a corona. Yes, but according to the references, fairweather conditions are not a strong enough electric field to cause corona in the absence of some other energy source. I can't comment on that, Cecil. I was trying to keep the geometry simple with a single vertical wire. Well, a single vertical wire would have its ground plane grounded so it might also build up a charge between the inner coax conductor and outer conductor from wind-driven charged particles. But wouldn't a ball on top reduce the possibility of corona just like it does on other vertical antennas? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
#368
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Noise level between two ant types
Jim Kelley wrote:
Here's an exercise that might add some realism. Calculate the amount of charge a 14 awg 40 meter dipole antenna at 35 feet would have to accumulate in order to generate a strong enough field to cause a corona discharge. (Arcing at the feedpoint doesn't count.) And make it #14 solid wire with rounded ends. I suspect the coax connector would arc long before any corona appeared. In fact, corona should be visible at night. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp |
#369
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The Google Hypothesis of Guru Elevation - The Guroogle
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:20:24 -0400, Mike Coslo
wrote: Well, sometimes dummies like me get caught up in actually thinking that it is serious discussion. I should know better! C'mon Mike, this is coy by half. Look at the Subject line you've responded to. How could you possibly have any fantasy of this being a lesson in flower arranging? Look at the Subject that drove this critique. With fully 27 correspondents, only Cecil is churning out the inconsequential (much different from insignificant) at a ratio of 146:8. With this having increased by nearly double the earlier observed posting ratio of 9:1, how is you seem to have been blind-sided? If you genuinely desire to discuss the serious topic of the Google Hypothesis, I would suggest attention to this climbing ratio. As a fact, it takes no more than a couple dozen words. A response would hardly encompass half that. Beyond that, and for entertainment's sake, I'll move on from the Rodney King metaphor to Beat Takeshi Kitano's "Zatoichi" (or any of the 25 earlier movies, or the 100 TV episodes). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#370
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Noise level between two ant types
Cecil Moore wrote:
chuck wrote: My understanding is that a strong electric field ionizes the air and leads to formation of a corona. Yes, but according to the references, fairweather conditions are not a strong enough electric field to cause corona in the absence of some other energy source. That is probably based on the notion that below a field strength of ~300 volts/meter (Paschen), voltage breakdown in air is not possible. Fairweather fields tend to typically be weaker than that although 200 volts/meter is sometimes observed. But Paschen's number assumes parallel plates, and not sharp electrodes, and Llewellyn demonstrated sharp electrode breakdown at 100 volts/meter, a strength often found in fairweather fields. There are many other factors that influence electrical breakdown, such as ionization of air by naturally occurring radioactivity (e.g., radon, which would be another energy source but one which is usually present near the earth), atmospheric pressure, etc. So yes or no? Paschen's law says no. But Jonassen admits that Paschen's law has never been tested for non-parallel electrodes of really small dimensions and he found it doesn't hold for small spherical electrodes at separations of a few cm. Llewellyn reported measurements below the predicted Paschen minimum for sharp electrodes. I can't comment on that, Cecil. I was trying to keep the geometry simple with a single vertical wire. Well, a single vertical wire would have its ground plane grounded so it might also build up a charge between the inner coax conductor and outer conductor from wind-driven charged particles. I would think so. And the coax looks like a capacitor to DC, FWIW. But wouldn't a ball on top reduce the possibility of corona just like it does on other vertical antennas? It would reduce the possibility of corona if it has a greater radius of curvature than whatever it replaced. 73, Chuck ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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