Cecil Moore wrote:
K3HVG wrote:
I have to agree.... I am surprised at the wholly naive (and incredibly
basic) questions I get from not a few newly licensed Extras. Of course,
I give the best info I can and try to help. But, I am still surprised
and maybe a bit disappointed.... Hopefully, and with time, they'll
assimilate the requisite knowledge. Dunno... maybe I'm expecting too much?

Maybe you are forgetting the time when you couldn't
tell your posterior from a hole in the ground?
Amateur radio exams are *entrance* exams, not
diplomas.

Right, but the original notion was that someone would get a Novice, operate
for a while, get a General, operate for a while, and gradually work their
way up the ladder while taking an "entrance exam" at each one. This no
longer really happens... we get folks coming in as Generals or Extras.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"K3HVG" wrote in message
...
Nope.... I don't think I'm forgetting anything (regarding this discussion,
of course). In past times, the Extra did, indeed, connote something more
than the passing ability to zero the ohms scale on a Simpson 260 or use of
a U-Test-Em tube checker at the local drug store.

Are you familiar with the current 4b question pool? There are 500 questions
selected for a 50 question test. I am a BSEE and I believe that the
questions are by and large very good and not particularly easy considering
that one is not trying the get a degree or pass a PE exam. I scored 100% on
the test the first time I took it; however, I put in several hours of study
because it covered several areas that I needed to review and/or catch up on.
I would not characterize it as trivial. In theory the 500 questions could be
memorized by I think that would be much more difficult than learning the
material as a way to pass the test.Also, rote memorizing will cause one to
learn more than one might think. In College chemistry I had to memorize the
activity series of the periodic table, something that has benefitted me
greatly during my EE career (because many EE's get invoved in so many other
areas than EE). Either method is valid but I would think that most learn the
real material these days and the questions are not insignificant. They don't
compare to operating a tube tester or zeroing an ohm meter. Element 3b is
another story and that one does need a little work

"Stefan Wolfe" wrote in message
...

"K3HVG" wrote in message
...
Nope.... I don't think I'm forgetting anything (regarding this
discussion, of course). In past times, the Extra did, indeed, connote
something more than the passing ability to zero the ohms scale on a
Simpson 260 or use of a U-Test-Em tube checker at the local drug store.

Are you familiar with the current 4b question pool? There are 500
questions selected for a 50 question test.

The current Extra exam is simply Element 4 and encompasses the material from
the old Advanced and Extra. There are over 800 questions in the current
Extra question pool.

Dee, N8UZE

"Stefan Wolfe" wrote:

In theory the 500 questions could be memorized by I think that would be
much more difficult than learning the material as a way to pass the test.

It is highly unlikely anyone "rote memorizes" the question pool.

When people use the term "memorize", they more than likely mean "word
associate".

Via word association, they are able to recognize the correct answer to the
question simply out of habit... much the same way you "memorize" the way to
travel to different places, even though you may not know all the street
names along the route of travel.

Increasing the size of the question pool does not eliminate this. All it
does is increase the amount of time someone has to spend reading thru the
question pool before they become adequately familiar with the material.

Furthermore, with the way the exams are structured (70% overall grade),
someone could simply opt to skip an entire sub-element, because there are
only 2 or 3 questions from it on the exam, and it isn't worth the effort to
even review that material.

73
kh6hz

"KH6HZ" wrote in message
...
"Stefan Wolfe" wrote:

When people use the term "memorize", they more than likely mean "word
associate".

Via word association, they are able to recognize the correct answer to the
question simply out of habit... much the same way you "memorize" the way
to travel to different places, even though you may not know all the street
names along the route of travel.

OK, I disagree. Try this:

E4C14: If a receiver tuned to 146.70 MHz receives an intermodulation-product
signal whenever a nearby transmitter transmits on 146.52MHz, what are the
two most likely frequencies for the other modulating signal?

A. 146.34 and 146.61 MHz
B. 146.88 and 146.34 MHz
C. 146.10 and 147.30
D. 73.35 and 239.40 MHz

To answer this question, you either rote-memorize the answer, which would be
unlikely due to the size of the question pool, or you aquire at least a
basic understanding of 3rd order IMD to be able to answer the question.

In article , KH6HZ wrote:
"Stefan Wolfe" wrote:

In theory the 500 questions could be memorized by I think that would be
much more difficult than learning the material as a way to pass the test.

It is highly unlikely anyone "rote memorizes" the question pool.

When people use the term "memorize", they more than likely mean "word
associate".

Via word association, they are able to recognize the correct answer to the
question simply out of habit... much the same way you "memorize" the way to
travel to different places, even though you may not know all the street
names along the route of travel.

Increasing the size of the question pool does not eliminate this. All it
does is increase the amount of time someone has to spend reading thru the
question pool before they become adequately familiar with the material.

When I took the First Class, there were a huge number of people who had
basically word-associated the question pool, and who were passing the test
with basically no technical knowledge at all. I am told that at some point
there was an oral examination as well required of First Class operators.

(The First Class is _not_ an entrance examination, the way the ham radio
license tests are... it is... well, it WAS an attempt to make sure
commercial radio engineers met a certain standard.)

I do not think a pure multiple-choice test is ever all that effective, in
part because it's possible to pass it that way.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote:

When I took the First Class, there were a huge number of people who had
basically word-associated the question pool, and who were passing the test
with basically no technical knowledge at all.

This happens on a daily basis in the ARS too, unfortunately.


I do not think a pure multiple-choice test is ever all that effective, in
part because it's possible to pass it that way.

Multiple choice exams are not a bad thing.

Imagine what your GPA would have been in college if all your professors gave
multiple-choice examinations AND gave you the question pool from which the
exams would be derived, at the beginning of the semester.

73
kh6hz

"KH6HZ" wrote in message
...
"Scott Dorsey" wrote:

When I took the First Class, there were a huge number of people who had
basically word-associated the question pool, and who were passing the
test
with basically no technical knowledge at all.

This happens on a daily basis in the ARS too, unfortunately.


I do not think a pure multiple-choice test is ever all that effective, in
part because it's possible to pass it that way.

Multiple choice exams are not a bad thing.

Imagine what your GPA would have been in college if all your professors
gave multiple-choice examinations AND gave you the question pool from
which the exams would be derived, at the beginning of the semester.

73
kh6hz


Multiple choice tests are ok, but I understand the point being made. Yes it
is possible to do word association - I've done it on exams I was taking with
NO WAY to study for. It does help tremendously though - to have a clue about
the content. I studied for every test other than that one. I like to give
myself the best possible chance to pass. I for one - don't like handing my
cash over on a whim. IF I have to pay to take a damned test, I want to make
sure I get my monies worth. As a VE team leader for both Amateur Radio and
Commercial exams (almost useless) - I've seen lots of people come and go.
You can usually tell who knows their stuff or at least are trying.

Radiosrfun wrote:
"KH6HZ" wrote in message
...
"Scott Dorsey" wrote:

When I took the First Class, there were a huge number of people who had
basically word-associated the question pool, and who were passing the
test
with basically no technical knowledge at all.
This happens on a daily basis in the ARS too, unfortunately.


I do not think a pure multiple-choice test is ever all that effective, in
part because it's possible to pass it that way.
Multiple choice exams are not a bad thing.

Imagine what your GPA would have been in college if all your professors
gave multiple-choice examinations AND gave you the question pool from
which the exams would be derived, at the beginning of the semester.

73
kh6hz


Multiple choice tests are ok, but I understand the point being made. Yes it
is possible to do word association - I've done it on exams I was taking with
NO WAY to study for. It does help tremendously though - to have a clue about
the content. I studied for every test other than that one. I like to give
myself the best possible chance to pass. I for one - don't like handing my
cash over on a whim. IF I have to pay to take a damned test, I want to make
sure I get my monies worth. As a VE team leader for both Amateur Radio and
Commercial exams (almost useless) - I've seen lots of people come and go.
You can usually tell who knows their stuff or at least are trying.

I had a professor, the late great Dave Simons, who would make EE tests that
were multiple choice, and had partial credit.

He had taught for so long, that he knew virtually all of the mistakes that
the kids would make, and would put the answers that would result from the
different wrong paths as the different choices.

-Chuck