Bill M wrote:
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
If you go onto an American military base in Germany today, you'll still
see Edison outlets at 110V. Americans have always carried our power with
us wherever we have gone.

But in the summer of 1944, you would not have found any (110 volt
power or US bases) in Europe. The whole point of the unit was to be
a portable radio station, not something you had to build a base around.

I thought France was still on 110 in those days. I've restored some
French sets both pre and post war, some I think were 110 only.

France was spotty, with some places being 110 and other places being 220
and a few places having weird line frequencies too. This led to a legacy
of lots of weird incompatible light bulb bases too, which the EU is only
finally getting cleaned up.

Remember, this was an era when there were no large scale power grids,
and individual cities had their own generating plant and their own
standards. Well, Germany started to have a grid, but we took it out....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Bill M wrote:
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
If you go onto an American military base in Germany
today, you'll still
see Edison outlets at 110V. Americans have always
carried our power with
us wherever we have gone.

But in the summer of 1944, you would not have found any
(110 volt
power or US bases) in Europe. The whole point of the
unit was to be
a portable radio station, not something you had to build
a base around.

I thought France was still on 110 in those days. I've
restored some
French sets both pre and post war, some I think were 110
only.

France was spotty, with some places being 110 and other
places being 220
and a few places having weird line frequencies too. This
led to a legacy
of lots of weird incompatible light bulb bases too, which
the EU is only
finally getting cleaned up.

Remember, this was an era when there were no large scale
power grids,
and individual cities had their own generating plant and
their own
standards. Well, Germany started to have a grid, but we
took it out....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

FWIW, the third edition of _Reference Data for Radio
Engineers_ dated 1949 shows France has having DC power at
110, 120, 125, 220 volts and AC at 110, 115, 120, 125, 220,
230 volts and both 50hz and 25hz. It indicates that the
predominant power was 110 or 115 VAC at 50hz.
A this time power frequencies of 25hz, 40hz, 42hz, 43hz,
45hz, 100hz (Malta) could be found in various parts of the
world.
50hz has always been the most common power frequency in
Europe and 60Hz in the USA and Canada. 25hz is used for
industrial purposes, particularly for electric railways
because core losses are lower in motors and transformers
(less heat dissipated). I have no idea of the origin of the
40hz series. Power voltages and frequencies in "third world"
countries usually follows the preferences of the countries
that colonized them.
In the Los Angeles area until about the mid 1950's one
could find both 50hz and 60hz power. The city, which is
supplied by the publicly owned Department of Water and Power
was 60Hz, the outlying areas not incorporated into the city
mostly got their power from Southern California Edision
which was mostly 50Hz. I remember seeing hydro-electric
generators at the old St. Francis power station that were
originally 50Hz but were run overspeed to generate 60hz.
These survived the St. Francis dam collapse and subsequent
flood.


--

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL

"Richard Knoppow" wrote in message
...

25hz is used for
industrial purposes, particularly for electric railways
because core losses are lower in motors and transformers
(less heat dissipated).


Richard,

I believe the real reason for 25 Hz power near Niagara Falls was the
large number of chlor-alkali plants in the area. The Castner
Electrolytic Alkali Company began operation at Niagara Falls in
1897. Eventually this became the Olin Niachlor plant. Chlor-alkali
plants are a major consumer of electricity, and it was plentiful and
cheap at Niagara Falls. Other companies in the same area with
chlor-alkali plants are DuPont and Hooker (later to be Occidental
Chemical).

The reason for using 25 Hz AC is related to the need for high
current DC for use in the process. In the early days, mechanical
(rotary) rectifiers were used to convert the AC to DC. Essentially
a synchronous motor was used to turn large disks broken into
sections. AC was fed to these disks. Brushes would rub on the disk
producing a unipolar output. Operating at 1500 RPM this system was
quite efficient. But at 50 or 60 Hz, rotating the disks at 3000 or
3600 RPM, the efficiency was less (the off time, essentially the
insulating space between the disk sections, became a larger portion
of the total period) and the brushes wore out faster. Operating at
lower frequencies would have been even more efficient but
transformer size became excessive.

Unfortunately the early electrolytic cells used mercury for one
electrode leading to a major pollution problem. You might recognize
the name Hooker Chemical from their waste being dumped in the Love
Canal.

73, Dr. Barry L. Ornitz WA4VZQ

On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 21:26:07 -0400, "Phred" wrote:

"Richard Knoppow" wrote in message
...

25hz is used for
industrial purposes, particularly for electric railways
because core losses are lower in motors and transformers
(less heat dissipated).


Richard,

I believe the real reason for 25 Hz power near Niagara Falls was the
large number of chlor-alkali plants in the area. The Castner
Electrolytic Alkali Company began operation at Niagara Falls in
1897. Eventually this became the Olin Niachlor plant. Chlor-alkali
plants are a major consumer of electricity, and it was plentiful and
cheap at Niagara Falls. Other companies in the same area with
chlor-alkali plants are DuPont and Hooker (later to be Occidental
Chemical).

The reason for using 25 Hz AC is related to the need for high
current DC for use in the process. In the early days, mechanical
(rotary) rectifiers were used to convert the AC to DC. Essentially
a synchronous motor was used to turn large disks broken into
sections. AC was fed to these disks. Brushes would rub on the disk
producing a unipolar output. Operating at 1500 RPM this system was
quite efficient. But at 50 or 60 Hz, rotating the disks at 3000 or
3600 RPM, the efficiency was less (the off time, essentially the
insulating space between the disk sections, became a larger portion
of the total period) and the brushes wore out faster. Operating at
lower frequencies would have been even more efficient but
transformer size became excessive.

Unfortunately the early electrolytic cells used mercury for one
electrode leading to a major pollution problem. You might recognize
the name Hooker Chemical from their waste being dumped in the Love
Canal.

73, Dr. Barry L. Ornitz WA4VZQ


I vaguely remember my father (an electrician) telling me that power at
the very beginning of WW II in the Gary Indiana area was 25 Hz.

Does anyone know anything about that? Would the presence of steel
mills and other heavy industry have anything to do with it.

I have no reason to doubt what my father had said (but I can't ask
him anymore.)

Were there other places in the US that had non standard Hz. Also I'd
be interested in knowing when 60 Hz became the US standard and why?

The Gary, Hammond, East Chicago area and Southern parts of nearby
Chicago is, of course, one of the more heavily industrialized areas in
the US, or at least it was in the first half of the 20th century. Gary
(which happens to be my birthplace though I only lived there 10 weeks,
at the beginning of WW II) was founded specifically as a "Company
Town" in 1906 for US Steel and is named for an early president of the
company.


Jon Teske, W3JT [And as I found out on the only visit I ever made to
Gary aside from bypassing it on the tollways when I stopped to get an
Indiana Birth Certificate, my claim to fame is that I was born in the
same hospital as the Jackson family kids...Michael, Janet, Tito etc.

Sheesh! ]