Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"gareth" wrote in message
...
I wonder if some more experienced and senior (in the literal sense) amateur
could explain to me one difficulty that I have in understanding single
signal
reception with the crystal phasing control?
AIUI, the phasing control is adjusted so that the frequency that would
give
the audio image is phased out by being in the notch.
If that is true, how is it then possible to adjust the BFO to a
pleasant-for-you tone,
because such adjustment will alter the CIO frequency?
Surely the BFO has to be set in advance to be halfway between the serial
resonant
frequency and the notchable parallel resonant frequency?
This is a query stimulated by my current project which is to build a
boatanchor style
RX, with a flywheel-loaded slide rule dial like that of the Eddystone EA12



This subject matter illustrates a saying of Mrs.Nugatory, "For those who
know the
subject matter, no explanation is necessary, but for those who don't, no
explanation
is possible".

And what a pity that Mrs.Nugatory has not blessed us with her opinion, for I
feel
sure that she is the one person who would have the answer at her fingertips,
resulting
from her experiences with the HRO series of receivers.

But what I don't understand is the allegation of abuse laid at my door (in
many cases
by people who used it as an excuse to heap abuse in my direction;
particularly the Baying
Mob from ura most of whom have joined the thread, not to contribute to it,
but merely
as a vehicle to express their own infantile habituation) because I have
informed those who
have gone off at a tangent, but otherwise thanked them for their
contributions.

How is that abusive? Would it not have been ruder to ignore irrelevant
contributions without
acknowledging them?

But the fact remains that for those who understand the use of a crystal
phasing control in pre-1950
receivers that the questions as posed above are as completely informative as
is necessary.

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 8/25/2013 7:09 PM, gareth wrote:
"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:
snip
You're still missing the point that in addition to the peak response,
there
is
also a deep null.
No I'm not! It can be adjusted with the 'phase' control to null a signal
*at IF* near to the wanted one. Adjusting the position of the null has
no affect on beat frequency with the wanted signal, or the beat
frequency of the unwanted signal (it gives the BFO a less strong IF
interfering signal to beat with but it does not affect the frequency of
the beat note, just the loudness). Tuning the BFO has no effect on the
null. The two controls do not interact, though they both have an affect
on readability.
Straw Man
To call you an idiot would be an insult to idiots everywhere.

Infantile

PLONK!

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"Peter Able" stuck@home wrote in message
o.uk...

You asked for input from "experienced and senior" folk and yet you've been
rude and dismissive of such input. Why do you act down to Mr. Reay's
earlier characterisation of yourself? I'd like to see him proved wrong -
but that is a matter entirely in your hands, Gareth.

Infantile

PLONK!

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 20:14:17 +0100, gareth wrote:


Infantile

PLONK!

Fixed it for you.

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"gareth" wrote in message
...

Infantile

PLONKER!



We know you are.

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

In article ,
"gareth" wrote:



But the fact remains that for those who understand the use of a crystal
phasing control in pre-1950
receivers that the questions as posed above are as completely informative as
is necessary.

And you have had your answer - the tuning of the BFO has no effect on
the phasing control and vice versa. Do you not believe the answer?

--

Percy Picacity

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

On 26/08/13 18:47, Fred Roberts wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 12:59:07 +0000 (UTC), Stephen Thomas Cole
wrote:

I'm tempted to write to OFCOM and point out this loophole, truth be told.
This is a backdoor that needs to be locked shut, quick.

Quick Brian! Someone is trying to steal your blue flashing light! ROFL
- what a tool..

He'll have to close the HAREC loophole too.

I can imagine Ofcom's response to that, but he's probably already got a
more polite version from his backscratching supporters.

oops... that should be 'backchannel supporters'


--
Spike

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

On 27/08/13 09:47, Fred Roberts wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 23:04:01 +0100, Spike wrote:

He'll have to close the HAREC loophole too.

I can imagine Ofcom's response to that, but he's probably already got a
more polite version from his backscratching supporters.

He's drafting the first RFD in Ofcoms history as we speak ;-)

oops... that should be 'backchannel supporters'

I prefer "backend" or "arse end" myself..

Very approporiate!

I see RFD3 has hit the stands, and is generating much apathy.


--
Spike

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

On 27/08/13 09:50, Spike wrote:

I see RFD3 has hit the stands, and is generating much apathy.

This (in part) from Pedt in unnm;

"It a nutshell, you are making it 11 votes easier to litter the
hierarchy with little or never used groups and you are making it 6 votes
easier to forcibly delete a group in the face of opposition from the
users of the group. Neither has any benefit to the hierarchy. "

Agenda rumbled.

--
Spike

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:

But the fact remains that for those who understand the use of a crystal
phasing control in pre-1950
receivers that the questions as posed above are as completely informative
as
is necessary.
And you have had your answer - the tuning of the BFO has no effect on
the phasing control and vice versa. Do you not believe the answer?

Stating the bleeding obvious which we all knew any way is about as useful
and as relevant as quoting Newton's laws of motion; for neither are an
appropriate
response to the query as originally put.

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"gareth" wrote in message
...

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

What book? The FT101 manual or your £350 law book?

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI" wrote:
"gareth" wrote in message ...

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

What book? The FT101 manual or your £350 law book?

The FT101's a pretty simple rig, Frank. I doubt the manual would be that
long. When Gareth finally sources a copy, perhaps he'd be kind enough to
confirm.

--
If the above message is full of spelling mistakes or the snipping is duff,
it's probably because it was sent from my iPhone, likely whilst walking.
Apologies!

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

In article ,
"gareth" wrote:

"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:

But the fact remains that for those who understand the use of a crystal
phasing control in pre-1950
receivers that the questions as posed above are as completely informative
as
is necessary.
And you have had your answer - the tuning of the BFO has no effect on
the phasing control and vice versa. Do you not believe the answer?

Stating the bleeding obvious which we all knew any way is about as useful
and as relevant as quoting Newton's laws of motion; for neither are an
appropriate
response to the query as originally put.

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

Sorry, perhaps you could tell us what the question was again. I thought
you were asking if there was an advantage to tuning the BFO half way
between the wanted and unwanted signals. There isn't.

--

Percy Picacity

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"Stephen Thomas Cole" wrote in message
...
"FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI" wrote:
"gareth" wrote in message
...

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

What book? The FT101 manual or your £350 law book?

The FT101's a pretty simple rig, Frank. I doubt the manual would be that
long. When Gareth finally sources a copy, perhaps he'd be kind enough to
confirm.

I know, I had one, complete with manual, back in the 1980s. I don't recall
any difficulties tuning up, just don't key up* for more than a few seconds
at a time. Common sense, really.
* or should that be "key down"?
--
;-)
..
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
..
http://turner-smith.co.uk

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013, gareth wrote:

"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:

But the fact remains that for those who understand the use of a crystal
phasing control in pre-1950
receivers that the questions as posed above are as completely informative
as
is necessary.
And you have had your answer - the tuning of the BFO has no effect on
the phasing control and vice versa. Do you not believe the answer?

Stating the bleeding obvious which we all knew any way is about as useful
and as relevant as quoting Newton's laws of motion; for neither are an
appropriate
response to the query as originally put.

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

I don't remember a book being mentioned.

Do a search on lamb "crystal filter" and you'll find at least one
article from the thirties where he describes the filter in depth. II
doubt the famous QST article from around that time covers the filter in
the same depth.

Michael

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

Percy Picacity wrote:
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:

"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:

But the fact remains that for those who understand the use of a crystal
phasing control in pre-1950
receivers that the questions as posed above are as completely informative
as
is necessary.
And you have had your answer - the tuning of the BFO has no effect on
the phasing control and vice versa. Do you not believe the answer?

Stating the bleeding obvious which we all knew any way is about as useful
and as relevant as quoting Newton's laws of motion; for neither are an
appropriate
response to the query as originally put.

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

Sorry, perhaps you could tell us what the question was again. I thought
you were asking if there was an advantage to tuning the BFO half way
between the wanted and unwanted signals. There isn't.

I don't think Gareth knew what the question was even as he was asking it.

--
If the above message is full of spelling mistakes or the snipping is duff,
it's probably because it was sent from my iPhone, likely whilst walking.
Apologies!

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI" wrote:
"Stephen Thomas Cole" wrote in message
...
"FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI" wrote:
"gareth" wrote in message
...

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

What book? The FT101 manual or your £350 law book?

The FT101's a pretty simple rig, Frank. I doubt the manual would be that
long. When Gareth finally sources a copy, perhaps he'd be kind enough to
confirm.

I know, I had one, complete with manual, back in the 1980s. I don't
recall any difficulties tuning up, just don't key up* for more than a few
seconds at a time. Common sense, really.
* or should that be "key down"?

Hell, if he's really having trouble without the manual, there's plenty of
videos on YouTube of people demonstrating the necessary actions. Or he
could just pop down his local club and ask a friendly soul there to show
him how to operate it.

--
If the above message is full of spelling mistakes or the snipping is duff,
it's probably because it was sent from my iPhone, likely whilst walking.
Apologies!

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:
"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:
But the fact remains that for those who understand the use of a
crystal
phasing control in pre-1950
receivers that the questions as posed above are as completely
informative
as
is necessary.
And you have had your answer - the tuning of the BFO has no effect on
the phasing control and vice versa. Do you not believe the answer?
Stating the bleeding obvious which we all knew any way is about as useful
and as relevant as quoting Newton's laws of motion; for neither are an
appropriate
response to the query as originally put.
I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

Sorry, perhaps you could tell us what the question was again. I thought
you were asking if there was an advantage to tuning the BFO half way
between the wanted and unwanted signals. There isn't.


There is. You get single signal reception for CW despite the wide bandwidth
of
a trnasformer-only IF strip.

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013, Stephen Thomas Cole wrote:

I know, I had one, complete with manual, back in the 1980s. I don't
recall any difficulties tuning up, just don't key up* for more than a few
seconds at a time. Common sense, really.
* or should that be "key down"?

Hell, if he's really having trouble without the manual, there's plenty of
videos on YouTube of people demonstrating the necessary actions. Or he
could just pop down his local club and ask a friendly soul there to show
him how to operate it.

That keeps happening to me. I follow a link, and instead of some
interesting text, I'm supposed to watch a video like it's some cooking
show. Sure it lets the masses in, but at what cost?

Michael VE2BVW

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

Michael Black wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013, Stephen Thomas Cole wrote:

I know, I had one, complete with manual, back in the 1980s. I don't
recall any difficulties tuning up, just don't key up* for more than a few
seconds at a time. Common sense, really.
* or should that be "key down"?

Hell, if he's really having trouble without the manual, there's plenty of
videos on YouTube of people demonstrating the necessary actions. Or he
could just pop down his local club and ask a friendly soul there to show
him how to operate it.

That keeps happening to me. I follow a link, and instead of some
interesting text, I'm supposed to watch a video like it's some cooking
show. Sure it lets the masses in, but at what cost?

Michael VE2BVW

I'm not a huge fan of instructional radio videos, the majority are poorly
filmed and lit, with horrible sound and with semi-rambling commentary from
the noble but misguided ham videographer. But I have seen some absolutely
fantastic videos. One American chap in particular has a brilliant series on
YouTube but I can't remember it off the top of my head to pass along...

--
If the above message is full of spelling mistakes or the snipping is duff,
it's probably because it was sent from my iPhone, likely whilst walking.
Apologies!

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013, gareth wrote:

"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:
"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:
But the fact remains that for those who understand the use of a
crystal
phasing control in pre-1950
receivers that the questions as posed above are as completely
informative
as
is necessary.
And you have had your answer - the tuning of the BFO has no effect on
the phasing control and vice versa. Do you not believe the answer?
Stating the bleeding obvious which we all knew any way is about as useful
and as relevant as quoting Newton's laws of motion; for neither are an
appropriate
response to the query as originally put.
I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

Sorry, perhaps you could tell us what the question was again. I thought
you were asking if there was an advantage to tuning the BFO half way
between the wanted and unwanted signals. There isn't.


There is. You get single signal reception for CW despite the wide bandwidth
of
a trnasformer-only IF strip.

No. single signal reception comes when you actually have decent bandwidth.
You can get that from IF transformers, if the IF frequency is low enough,
all those receivers that had a final IF at 50 or 85KHz.

As I said, you don't even need to have the notch, if you adjust the filter
"right" the notch is never there. You still get single signal
selectivity, because the other image is knocked out by being out of the
passband of the filter. The notch feature just adds to the thing.

You could just string a bunch of RC amplifiers together, be they triodes
or bipolar transistors or FETs, and then put matched crystals from the
"cathode" or whatever to ground. The crystal acts as a very selective
bypass capacitor, very low impedance at the signal frequency, so gain
happens then, and high impedance elsewhere, so gain tapers off. It's not
perfect and the selectivity requires a lower IF, but it's a simple scheme.
I've thought of making a WWV receiver that way, just some stages of
amplification with 10MHz crystals, and a diode detector.

Or pick some crystals all on the same frequency, and make a ladder filter.
Some have even worked on those so you can actually use the same crystals
for narrow (CW) and wide (SSB) reception, though sometimes it seems easier
to just use parallel filters, pick a frequency where the crystals are
cheap.

Michael VE2BVW

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"Michael Black" wrote in message
ample.org...
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013, gareth wrote:

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

I don't remember a book being mentioned.


11th edition of "Radio Handbook", 1947 edition (with endpaper adverts
for 1948) pub, Editos and Engineers Ltd, of Santa Barbara, Cal.

Those who claim that single-signal reception is due solely to the series
resonant peak
of the Xtal are quite wrong, because otherwies there'd be no need whatsoever
for
a notch facility.

This is what you should end up with ...

Wanted signal in the peak of series resonance.

Bfo adjusted on the HF side to give a pleasant tone.

Notch moved using the phasing control to be at the IF frequency that would
produce
the audio image from the current BFO setting.

What I was after was the procedure to set the notch frequency, because
unless you have a narrow
CW filter in the AF strip, how would you judge that you'd created the same
AF heterodyne whistle?

TKS FER heads-up on Lamb, I'll follow that.

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

"gareth" wrote in message
...
"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
Sorry, perhaps you could tell us what the question was again. I thought
you were asking if there was an advantage to tuning the BFO half way
between the wanted and unwanted signals. There isn't.

There is. You get single signal reception for CW despite the wide
bandwidth of a trnasformer-only IF strip.

Eh? Have I missed something? If you tune the BFO halfway between the two
signals the output from either will be at the same frequency; that sounds
like exactly what you DON'T want!
--
;-)
..
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
..
http://turner-smith.co.uk

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

In article ,
"gareth" wrote:

snip

Wanted signal in the peak of series resonance.

Bfo adjusted on the HF side to give a pleasant tone.

Notch moved using the phasing control to be at the IF frequency that would
produce
the audio image from the current BFO setting.

What I was after was the procedure to set the notch frequency, because
unless you have a narrow
CW filter in the AF strip, how would you judge that you'd created the same
AF heterodyne whistle?

TKS FER heads-up on Lamb, I'll follow that.


You judge it by listening. If there isn't an interfering signal at that
frequency you don't have to do anything and you don't care where the
notch is (unless you use it to suppress a signal at a different
frequency which is probably less of a nuisance as the beat note is
different). You only have to adjust the notch if there is an
interfering signal, and you adjust it to make the desired signal easier
to read. If the phasing control makes no audible difference, or there
isn't any QRM, don't bother with it.

--

Percy Picacity

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

In article e.org,
Michael Black wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013, Stephen Thomas Cole wrote:

I know, I had one, complete with manual, back in the 1980s. I don't
recall any difficulties tuning up, just don't key up* for more than a few
seconds at a time. Common sense, really.
* or should that be "key down"?

Hell, if he's really having trouble without the manual, there's plenty of
videos on YouTube of people demonstrating the necessary actions. Or he
could just pop down his local club and ask a friendly soul there to show
him how to operate it.

That keeps happening to me. I follow a link, and instead of some
interesting text, I'm supposed to watch a video like it's some cooking
show. Sure it lets the masses in, but at what cost?

Michael VE2BVW

I agree. When I was a kid (in UK) I saw little or no TV and I have never
really got into having 10 minutes of video to explain something that
takes 2 minutes to read about. Perhaps I wouldn't feel so strongly if
my Internet connection actually permitted me to download youtube videos
in real time, I could quickly glance at them, *then* find a proper text
explanation!

--

Percy Picacity

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

In article ,
"gareth" wrote:

"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:
"Percy Picacity" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"gareth" wrote:
But the fact remains that for those who understand the use of a
crystal
phasing control in pre-1950
receivers that the questions as posed above are as completely
informative
as
is necessary.
And you have had your answer - the tuning of the BFO has no effect on
the phasing control and vice versa. Do you not believe the answer?
Stating the bleeding obvious which we all knew any way is about as useful
and as relevant as quoting Newton's laws of motion; for neither are an
appropriate
response to the query as originally put.
I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

Sorry, perhaps you could tell us what the question was again. I thought
you were asking if there was an advantage to tuning the BFO half way
between the wanted and unwanted signals. There isn't.


There is. You get single signal reception for CW despite the wide bandwidth
of
a trnasformer-only IF strip.

You get the selectivity regardless of the BFO setting. Putting the BFO
half way just makes it *harder* to distinguish the two signals. The
advantage of the notch is if you *want* the BFO at that setting to give
a comfortable pitch and there *happens* to be an interfering signal just
in the wrong place (presumably one of many interfering signals in the IF
bandwidth) then the notch gives you a way of suppressing it. But you
don't *deliberately* tune the BFO to give you an interfering audio
image, you would do better tuning the BFO to where the interfering
signals were all a few kHz different. If there isn't a gap big enough
between interfering signals, *then* the notch helps get rid of the most
annoying one.

--

Percy Picacity

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

Percy Picacity wrote:
In article e.org,
Michael Black wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013, Stephen Thomas Cole wrote:

I know, I had one, complete with manual, back in the 1980s. I don't
recall any difficulties tuning up, just don't key up* for more than a few
seconds at a time. Common sense, really.
* or should that be "key down"?

Hell, if he's really having trouble without the manual, there's plenty of
videos on YouTube of people demonstrating the necessary actions. Or he
could just pop down his local club and ask a friendly soul there to show
him how to operate it.

That keeps happening to me. I follow a link, and instead of some
interesting text, I'm supposed to watch a video like it's some cooking
show. Sure it lets the masses in, but at what cost?

Michael VE2BVW

I agree. When I was a kid (in UK) I saw little or no TV and I have never
really got into having 10 minutes of video to explain something that
takes 2 minutes to read about. Perhaps I wouldn't feel so strongly if
my Internet connection actually permitted me to download youtube videos
in real time, I could quickly glance at them, *then* find a proper text
explanation!

Yup, there's no substitute for information in a book or magazine (or a
print-out from the web. I don't enjoy poring over stuff on a screen, much
nicer to transfer to analogue and ruminate over on the sofa). And I say
that as a young whippersnapper raised on computers and the telly.

--
If the above message is full of spelling mistakes or the snipping is duff,
it's probably because it was sent from my iPhone, likely whilst walking.
Apologies!

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

On 27/08/13 22:00, Stephen Thomas Cole wrote:
"FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI" wrote:
"Stephen Thomas Cole" wrote in message
...
"FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI" wrote:
"gareth" wrote in message
...

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

What book? The FT101 manual or your £350 law book?

The FT101's a pretty simple rig, Frank. I doubt the manual would be that
long. When Gareth finally sources a copy, perhaps he'd be kind enough to
confirm.

I know, I had one, complete with manual, back in the 1980s. I don't
recall any difficulties tuning up, just don't key up* for more than a few
seconds at a time. Common sense, really.
* or should that be "key down"?

Hell, if he's really having trouble without the manual, there's plenty of
videos on YouTube of people demonstrating the necessary actions. Or he
could just pop down his local club and ask a friendly soul there to show
him how to operate it.

He doesn't appear to be flavour of the month at his local club, so that
might be a problem.

--
;-)
..
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
..
http://turner-smith.co.uk
..
Ubuntu 12.04
Thunderbirds are go.

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI wrote:
On 27/08/13 22:00, Stephen Thomas Cole wrote:
"FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI" wrote:
"Stephen Thomas Cole" wrote in message
...
"FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI" wrote:
"gareth" wrote in message
...

I refer you page 79 of the previously mentioned book.

What book? The FT101 manual or your £350 law book?

The FT101's a pretty simple rig, Frank. I doubt the manual would be that
long. When Gareth finally sources a copy, perhaps he'd be kind enough to
confirm.

I know, I had one, complete with manual, back in the 1980s. I don't
recall any difficulties tuning up, just don't key up* for more than a few
seconds at a time. Common sense, really.
* or should that be "key down"?

Hell, if he's really having trouble without the manual, there's plenty of
videos on YouTube of people demonstrating the necessary actions. Or he
could just pop down his local club and ask a friendly soul there to show
him how to operate it.

He doesn't appear to be flavour of the month at his local club, so that might be a problem.

Ah, that's unfortunate. Maybe he could join RSGBTech and post a message
there asking for help?

--
If the above message is full of spelling mistakes or the snipping is duff,
it's probably because it was sent from my iPhone, likely whilst walking.
Apologies!

Crystal phasing & single signal reception
 

Ah, that's unfortunate. Maybe he could join RSGBTech and post a message
there asking for help?

yes....should be hundreds of pirate hammy mens who used an FT101 on there
.......