On 5/25/2014 10:18 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 12:03 PM, wrote:
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...
CD-1 Color Bar and Dot Generator

The one item in your list that no longer has any use!

I've got one of those, but not Heathkit, and PAL not NTSC

Closed Circuit TV is still mostly analog.




That's changing. We install much more digital (IP-based) systems than
analog, nowadays, including updating old analog systems.

Analog is still out there - but as the price of digital cameras comes
down, analog is fading.

Yes, new systems are predominantly digital, however there is a HUGE
installed base of analog no one is going to replace just because, though
some are replacing the recording/viewing portion with digitizers.

If you have to dig up and replace miles of cable to have digital cameras,
the cameras are likely to stay analog for a long time.



That's where you're wrong. Probably 1/3 of our installs is replacing
old analog systems with digital. The higher quality of a digital
picture is the main selling point, although the digital recording also
helps.

And BTW - we do it over the existing coax. No "miles of cable" are
replaced.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 10:18 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 12:03 PM, wrote:
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...
CD-1 Color Bar and Dot Generator

The one item in your list that no longer has any use!

I've got one of those, but not Heathkit, and PAL not NTSC

Closed Circuit TV is still mostly analog.




That's changing. We install much more digital (IP-based) systems than
analog, nowadays, including updating old analog systems.

Analog is still out there - but as the price of digital cameras comes
down, analog is fading.

Yes, new systems are predominantly digital, however there is a HUGE
installed base of analog no one is going to replace just because, though
some are replacing the recording/viewing portion with digitizers.

If you have to dig up and replace miles of cable to have digital cameras,
the cameras are likely to stay analog for a long time.



That's where you're wrong. Probably 1/3 of our installs is replacing
old analog systems with digital. The higher quality of a digital
picture is the main selling point, although the digital recording also
helps.

I am describing systems I personally know of and deal with, so no, I am
not "wrong".

Digital cameras are only installed for new construction and the quality
of the digital video is no better than the analog video as the analog
cameras were high quality video since day 1.

Your experience and situation may be different.

And BTW - we do it over the existing coax. No "miles of cable" are
replaced.

Such is not possible for many reasons in the systems I deal with, and
yes, there are literally hundreds of miles of cable.



--
Jim Pennino

On 5/26/2014 1:17 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 10:18 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 12:03 PM, wrote:
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...
CD-1 Color Bar and Dot Generator

The one item in your list that no longer has any use!

I've got one of those, but not Heathkit, and PAL not NTSC

Closed Circuit TV is still mostly analog.




That's changing. We install much more digital (IP-based) systems than
analog, nowadays, including updating old analog systems.

Analog is still out there - but as the price of digital cameras comes
down, analog is fading.

Yes, new systems are predominantly digital, however there is a HUGE
installed base of analog no one is going to replace just because, though
some are replacing the recording/viewing portion with digitizers.

If you have to dig up and replace miles of cable to have digital cameras,
the cameras are likely to stay analog for a long time.



That's where you're wrong. Probably 1/3 of our installs is replacing
old analog systems with digital. The higher quality of a digital
picture is the main selling point, although the digital recording also
helps.

I am describing systems I personally know of and deal with, so no, I am
not "wrong".


I am describing systems my company interacts with daily. And yes, you
are "wrong".

Digital cameras are only installed for new construction and the quality
of the digital video is no better than the analog video as the analog
cameras were high quality video since day 1.


Again, wrong. As I indicated, probably 1/3 of our camera installations
are replacing analog cameras with digital ones. The number of analog
cameras we installed last year could be counted on both hands. Digital,
OTOH (including replacements) are a lot.

Your experience and situation may be different.


They definitely are. We are in the commercial business.

And BTW - we do it over the existing coax. No "miles of cable" are
replaced.

Such is not possible for many reasons in the systems I deal with, and
yes, there are literally hundreds of miles of cable.


You are obviously not familiar with HDBASE-T - which is a recognized
standard, just like HDMI, and is supported by multiple manufacturers.
Depending on the manufacturer, it is quite easy to send up to 4 IP
cameras over one coax up to 1,500 ft. - farther than analog cameras will go.

And if you need more, there are any number of solutions - all over coax.

I don't know what you deal with - but it's obviously not the current
state of the art. Sounds like something out of the 1980's (or before).

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/26/2014 1:17 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 10:18 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 12:03 PM, wrote:
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...
CD-1 Color Bar and Dot Generator

The one item in your list that no longer has any use!

I've got one of those, but not Heathkit, and PAL not NTSC

Closed Circuit TV is still mostly analog.




That's changing. We install much more digital (IP-based) systems than
analog, nowadays, including updating old analog systems.

Analog is still out there - but as the price of digital cameras comes
down, analog is fading.

Yes, new systems are predominantly digital, however there is a HUGE
installed base of analog no one is going to replace just because, though
some are replacing the recording/viewing portion with digitizers.

If you have to dig up and replace miles of cable to have digital cameras,
the cameras are likely to stay analog for a long time.



That's where you're wrong. Probably 1/3 of our installs is replacing
old analog systems with digital. The higher quality of a digital
picture is the main selling point, although the digital recording also
helps.

I am describing systems I personally know of and deal with, so no, I am
not "wrong".


I am describing systems my company interacts with daily. And yes, you
are "wrong".

You are talking about what you are involved in and I am talking about
what I am involved in.

From my perspective it is YOU that is wrong.

snip

Digital cameras are only installed for new construction and the quality
of the digital video is no better than the analog video as the analog
cameras were high quality video since day 1.


Again, wrong.

Nope, it is exactly what is happening with the systems I am involved in.

Obviously you are wrong.

snip

Your experience and situation may be different.


They definitely are. We are in the commercial business.

I am not.

Here'a clue; the 2014 budget for the sub-organization I deal with is $21.1 B.

Yes, that is a 'B'.

And BTW - we do it over the existing coax. No "miles of cable" are
replaced.

Such is not possible for many reasons in the systems I deal with, and
yes, there are literally hundreds of miles of cable.


You are obviously not familiar with HDBASE-T - which is a recognized
standard, just like HDMI, and is supported by multiple manufacturers.
Depending on the manufacturer, it is quite easy to send up to 4 IP
cameras over one coax up to 1,500 ft. - farther than analog cameras will go.

What part of "miles" is it you fail to understand?

And of course there is more than just miles of of video cable and the
stuff to get the video to go for miles.

There is also miles of the multidrop, 1200 baud twisted pair copper for PTZ.

And if you need more, there are any number of solutions - all over coax.

I don't know what you deal with - but it's obviously not the current
state of the art. Sounds like something out of the 1980's (or before).

That would be about the time frame of the first installed camera.

When the replacement costs are in the hundreds of millions of dollars
and the system runs 24/7/365 you don't replace everything just to have
the latest technology; you update through slow and carefully planed
attrition.



--
Jim Pennino

On 5/27/2014 1:22 AM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/26/2014 1:17 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 10:18 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 12:03 PM, wrote:
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...
CD-1 Color Bar and Dot Generator

The one item in your list that no longer has any use!

I've got one of those, but not Heathkit, and PAL not NTSC

Closed Circuit TV is still mostly analog.




That's changing. We install much more digital (IP-based) systems than
analog, nowadays, including updating old analog systems.

Analog is still out there - but as the price of digital cameras comes
down, analog is fading.

Yes, new systems are predominantly digital, however there is a HUGE
installed base of analog no one is going to replace just because, though
some are replacing the recording/viewing portion with digitizers.

If you have to dig up and replace miles of cable to have digital cameras,
the cameras are likely to stay analog for a long time.



That's where you're wrong. Probably 1/3 of our installs is replacing
old analog systems with digital. The higher quality of a digital
picture is the main selling point, although the digital recording also
helps.

I am describing systems I personally know of and deal with, so no, I am
not "wrong".


I am describing systems my company interacts with daily. And yes, you
are "wrong".

You are talking about what you are involved in and I am talking about
what I am involved in.

From my perspective it is YOU that is wrong.


Just because you don't know what you're talking about doesn't make you
right.

snip

Digital cameras are only installed for new construction and the quality
of the digital video is no better than the analog video as the analog
cameras were high quality video since day 1.


Again, wrong.

Nope, it is exactly what is happening with the systems I am involved in.

Obviously you are wrong.


See above.

snip

Your experience and situation may be different.


They definitely are. We are in the commercial business.

I am not.


Then you have very little experience from which to speak. How many
installations do you do a year?

Here'a clue; the 2014 budget for the sub-organization I deal with is $21.1 B.

Yes, that is a 'B'.


So what? It doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.
Just that your sub-organization wastes a lot of money.

And BTW - we do it over the existing coax. No "miles of cable" are
replaced.

Such is not possible for many reasons in the systems I deal with, and
yes, there are literally hundreds of miles of cable.


You are obviously not familiar with HDBASE-T - which is a recognized
standard, just like HDMI, and is supported by multiple manufacturers.
Depending on the manufacturer, it is quite easy to send up to 4 IP
cameras over one coax up to 1,500 ft. - farther than analog cameras will go.

What part of "miles" is it you fail to understand?


Pray tell us, oh great magician. How do you get analog cameras to go
"miles" over coax without all kinds of amplifiers on the way? Make and
model of the cameras and coax.

And of course there is more than just miles of of video cable and the
stuff to get the video to go for miles.


Again, exactly what?

There is also miles of the multidrop, 1200 baud twisted pair copper for PTZ.


Again - exactly what PTZ cameras will run off of 1200 baud twisted pair?
Make and model of the cameras and the controllers.

And if you need more, there are any number of solutions - all over coax.

I don't know what you deal with - but it's obviously not the current
state of the art. Sounds like something out of the 1980's (or before).

That would be about the time frame of the first installed camera.

When the replacement costs are in the hundreds of millions of dollars
and the system runs 24/7/365 you don't replace everything just to have
the latest technology; you update through slow and carefully planed
attrition.


And when you have no idea what you're talking about, you can make any
claims you want. That doesn't mean you are right. In fact, from this
post you show just how ignorant you are.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/27/2014 1:22 AM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/26/2014 1:17 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 10:18 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 12:03 PM, wrote:
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...
CD-1 Color Bar and Dot Generator

The one item in your list that no longer has any use!

I've got one of those, but not Heathkit, and PAL not NTSC

Closed Circuit TV is still mostly analog.




That's changing. We install much more digital (IP-based) systems than
analog, nowadays, including updating old analog systems.

Analog is still out there - but as the price of digital cameras comes
down, analog is fading.

Yes, new systems are predominantly digital, however there is a HUGE
installed base of analog no one is going to replace just because, though
some are replacing the recording/viewing portion with digitizers.

If you have to dig up and replace miles of cable to have digital cameras,
the cameras are likely to stay analog for a long time.



That's where you're wrong. Probably 1/3 of our installs is replacing
old analog systems with digital. The higher quality of a digital
picture is the main selling point, although the digital recording also
helps.

I am describing systems I personally know of and deal with, so no, I am
not "wrong".


I am describing systems my company interacts with daily. And yes, you
are "wrong".

You are talking about what you are involved in and I am talking about
what I am involved in.

From my perspective it is YOU that is wrong.


Just because you don't know what you're talking about doesn't make you
right.

I know very well what I am talking about because I am intimately involved in
it.

Your basic problem is that you feel only the things YOU are involved with
are "correct" or "right" and can not seem to understand that the Universe
does NOT revolve around you and your experiences.


snip

Digital cameras are only installed for new construction and the quality
of the digital video is no better than the analog video as the analog
cameras were high quality video since day 1.


Again, wrong.

Nope, it is exactly what is happening with the systems I am involved in.

Obviously you are wrong.


See above.

See above.

snip

Your experience and situation may be different.


They definitely are. We are in the commercial business.

I am not.


Then you have very little experience from which to speak. How many
installations do you do a year?

I don't do the installations, there are big teams to do the grunt work, and
it depends on how you define "installation".

The total number of cameras is currently somewhere around 1,000.

Here'a clue; the 2014 budget for the sub-organization I deal with is $21.1 B.

Yes, that is a 'B'.


So what? It doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.
Just that your sub-organization wastes a lot of money.

And you know that how?


And BTW - we do it over the existing coax. No "miles of cable" are
replaced.

Such is not possible for many reasons in the systems I deal with, and
yes, there are literally hundreds of miles of cable.


You are obviously not familiar with HDBASE-T - which is a recognized
standard, just like HDMI, and is supported by multiple manufacturers.
Depending on the manufacturer, it is quite easy to send up to 4 IP
cameras over one coax up to 1,500 ft. - farther than analog cameras will go.

What part of "miles" is it you fail to understand?


Pray tell us, oh great magician. How do you get analog cameras to go
"miles" over coax without all kinds of amplifiers on the way? Make and
model of the cameras and coax.

Of course there are amplifiers in the system.

How else would you get analog video from a camera 25 miles away?

And of course there is more than just miles of of video cable and the
stuff to get the video to go for miles.


Again, exactly what?

It is not my job to specify the nuts and bolts out there nor do I care in
the slightest as it is someone else's job to make sure the video gets to
where it is supposed to go.

There is also miles of the multidrop, 1200 baud twisted pair copper for PTZ.


Again - exactly what PTZ cameras will run off of 1200 baud twisted pair?
Make and model of the cameras and the controllers.

The original cameras were Javelin JO505R/D12 and PTZ control is via a
custom program written on HP-UX Unix.

As Javelin is long out of business, newer models from Pelco and Cohu have
been added to the mix and the control program updated for the newer models.

As new contruction adds TCP/IP connected cameras over fiber, the program
has also been modified to allow TCP PTZ control in addition to legacy
serial.

And if you need more, there are any number of solutions - all over coax.

I don't know what you deal with - but it's obviously not the current
state of the art. Sounds like something out of the 1980's (or before).

That would be about the time frame of the first installed camera.

When the replacement costs are in the hundreds of millions of dollars
and the system runs 24/7/365 you don't replace everything just to have
the latest technology; you update through slow and carefully planed
attrition.


And when you have no idea what you're talking about, you can make any
claims you want. That doesn't mean you are right. In fact, from this
post you show just how ignorant you are.

From your posts you show you are a self centered egotist who is unable
to understand that the whole Universe does not revolve arout you.

You are firmly convinced that the only person in the Universe that does
things "correctly" is you and can't possibly understand there may be other
situations where your "solution" doesn't work.




--
Jim Pennino

On 5/27/2014 2:14 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/27/2014 1:22 AM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/26/2014 1:17 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 10:18 PM, wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 5/25/2014 12:03 PM, wrote:
gareth wrote:
wrote in message
...
CD-1 Color Bar and Dot Generator

The one item in your list that no longer has any use!

I've got one of those, but not Heathkit, and PAL not NTSC

Closed Circuit TV is still mostly analog.




That's changing. We install much more digital (IP-based) systems than
analog, nowadays, including updating old analog systems.

Analog is still out there - but as the price of digital cameras comes
down, analog is fading.

Yes, new systems are predominantly digital, however there is a HUGE
installed base of analog no one is going to replace just because, though
some are replacing the recording/viewing portion with digitizers.

If you have to dig up and replace miles of cable to have digital cameras,
the cameras are likely to stay analog for a long time.



That's where you're wrong. Probably 1/3 of our installs is replacing
old analog systems with digital. The higher quality of a digital
picture is the main selling point, although the digital recording also
helps.

I am describing systems I personally know of and deal with, so no, I am
not "wrong".


I am describing systems my company interacts with daily. And yes, you
are "wrong".

You are talking about what you are involved in and I am talking about
what I am involved in.

From my perspective it is YOU that is wrong.


Just because you don't know what you're talking about doesn't make you
right.

I know very well what I am talking about because I am intimately involved in
it.

Your basic problem is that you feel only the things YOU are involved with
are "correct" or "right" and can not seem to understand that the Universe
does NOT revolve around you and your experiences.


No, YOUR mistake is to think that your little world is indicative of the
rest of the world. You can be assured it is NOT.


snip

Digital cameras are only installed for new construction and the quality
of the digital video is no better than the analog video as the analog
cameras were high quality video since day 1.


Again, wrong.

Nope, it is exactly what is happening with the systems I am involved in.

Obviously you are wrong.


See above.

See above.

snip

Your experience and situation may be different.


They definitely are. We are in the commercial business.

I am not.


Then you have very little experience from which to speak. How many
installations do you do a year?

I don't do the installations, there are big teams to do the grunt work, and
it depends on how you define "installation".

The total number of cameras is currently somewhere around 1,000.


Only 1,000 cameras? A rather small installation, indeed.

Here'a clue; the 2014 budget for the sub-organization I deal with is $21.1 B.

Yes, that is a 'B'.


So what? It doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.
Just that your sub-organization wastes a lot of money.

And you know that how?


A big budget does not necessarily indicate competence - as you have
already proven. It says nothing about your unit's knowledge of cameras,
for instance. Only that you have to prove your manhood by showing what
a big budget you have.

But it's only big to you. We have customers with more net income per
year than you are spending - and would consider your budget "chump change".


And BTW - we do it over the existing coax. No "miles of cable" are
replaced.

Such is not possible for many reasons in the systems I deal with, and
yes, there are literally hundreds of miles of cable.


You are obviously not familiar with HDBASE-T - which is a recognized
standard, just like HDMI, and is supported by multiple manufacturers.
Depending on the manufacturer, it is quite easy to send up to 4 IP
cameras over one coax up to 1,500 ft. - farther than analog cameras will go.

What part of "miles" is it you fail to understand?


Pray tell us, oh great magician. How do you get analog cameras to go
"miles" over coax without all kinds of amplifiers on the way? Make and
model of the cameras and coax.

Of course there are amplifiers in the system.

How else would you get analog video from a camera 25 miles away?


So, you should be able to answer the question - camera and amplifiers
makes and models, for instance. How many times the signal is amplified
(pay attention to the fact that EVERY amplifier distorts an analog
waveform and introduces noise into the system, degrading the picture).

I'd love to see the specifics on how you're getting an analog signal 25
miles. Oh, and of course, your company must be a common carrier -
required in the United States for crossing public land such as streets
and highways.

And of course there is more than just miles of of video cable and the
stuff to get the video to go for miles.


Again, exactly what?

It is not my job to specify the nuts and bolts out there nor do I care in
the slightest as it is someone else's job to make sure the video gets to
where it is supposed to go.


I knew you would try to weasel out of answering the question. It just
goes to show how full of it you are. You claim all this knowledge - but
in fact know nothing.

There is also miles of the multidrop, 1200 baud twisted pair copper for PTZ.


Again - exactly what PTZ cameras will run off of 1200 baud twisted pair?
Make and model of the cameras and the controllers.

The original cameras were Javelin JO505R/D12 and PTZ control is via a
custom program written on HP-UX Unix.

As Javelin is long out of business, newer models from Pelco and Cohu have
been added to the mix and the control program updated for the newer models.


Interesting that the only camera you can specify a model for is out of
business (and has been for a number of years).

But then neither Pelco nor Cohu have PTZ's which can be controlled over
a 1200 baud line. But you should be able to specify exactly which
cameras you are using.

As new contruction adds TCP/IP connected cameras over fiber, the program
has also been modified to allow TCP PTZ control in addition to legacy
serial.


I don't know why you would need to modify a program when both Pelco and
Cohu and be controlled over fiber with existing equipment.

And if you need more, there are any number of solutions - all over coax.

I don't know what you deal with - but it's obviously not the current
state of the art. Sounds like something out of the 1980's (or before).

That would be about the time frame of the first installed camera.

When the replacement costs are in the hundreds of millions of dollars
and the system runs 24/7/365 you don't replace everything just to have
the latest technology; you update through slow and carefully planed
attrition.


And when you have no idea what you're talking about, you can make any
claims you want. That doesn't mean you are right. In fact, from this
post you show just how ignorant you are.

From your posts you show you are a self centered egotist who is unable
to understand that the whole Universe does not revolve arout you.

You are firmly convinced that the only person in the Universe that does
things "correctly" is you and can't possibly understand there may be other
situations where your "solution" doesn't work.



I knew this was coming. You can't back up your "facts", so you have to
resort to personal attacks.
But then that's a typical response from a troll.

The fact is - you are a little boy in a very enclosed environment, with
no view of the rest of the world. Yet you think your little corner is
representative of EVERYONE.

Let me clue you - it is not.

And BTW - I NEVER SAID that what we do is appropriate for EVERYONE. I
just said that that's the way the intelligent people in the world are
going. You can stay in the stone age as long as you want. It's not
skin off of my back.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I don't know what you deal with - but it's obviously not the current
state of the art. Sounds like something out of the 1980's (or before).


Oh come on Jerry, the whole NTSC thing is still part of the Amateur Extra
exam, so it MUST be state of the art. This new fangled digital stuff is
just a passing fad. :-)

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

On 5/27/2014 5:14 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I don't know what you deal with - but it's obviously not the current
state of the art. Sounds like something out of the 1980's (or before).


Oh come on Jerry, the whole NTSC thing is still part of the Amateur Extra
exam, so it MUST be state of the art. This new fangled digital stuff is
just a passing fad. :-)

Geoff.


Geoff,

ROFLMAO. It is? I haven't even looked at an amateur exam in over 40
years

If the FCC were still running the exam, I would believe it. But now
that it's in the hands of the hams, I would have expected old technology
to have been dropped more quickly.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================