Hi Ed,

What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
professionals.

The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable. The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology. From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
I did find it to be the case with the output hybrid in HP's 86222A
sweeper plugin.

There would be no more point in taking your busted 2465 to Tek for
repair than there would be for your 465, they won't work on either.

Checked is not the same as calibration. The case doesn't even get
opened for "checked".

And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!

-Chuck, WA3UQV

(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)

Ed Price wrote:
You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn

Chuck Harris wrote in message ...
Hi Ed,

What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
professionals.

The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable. The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology. From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
I did find it to be the case with the output hybrid in HP's 86222A
sweeper plugin.

There would be no more point in taking your busted 2465 to Tek for
repair than there would be for your 465, they won't work on either.

Checked is not the same as calibration. The case doesn't even get
opened for "checked".

And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!

-Chuck, WA3UQV

(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)

Ed Price wrote:
You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.

A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.

My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.

BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.

Ed
wb6wsn


does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?

gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message ...

-Chuck, WA3UQV

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?


Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck

Chuck Harris wrote:
gw wrote:

Chuck Harris wrote in message
...


-Chuck, WA3UQV


does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?



Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck


So Chuck your looking for a Trash 8/E rather than a Trash 80. BTW my
Trash 80 was a real Trash 80. R.S said it was uneconomical to repair,
read out of warrenty replaced a bad ttl chip and away it went. A friend
reworked the firmware to get rid of the infamous keyboard and cassette
problems(we rescued 8 of them from that dumpster).
Bill

Bill Higdon wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote:


So Chuck your looking for a Trash 8/E rather than a Trash 80. BTW my
Trash 80 was a real Trash 80. R.S said it was uneconomical to repair,
read out of warrenty replaced a bad ttl chip and away it went. A friend
reworked the firmware to get rid of the infamous keyboard and cassette
problems(we rescued 8 of them from that dumpster).
Bill


Snort! That's a good one! I spent too much time using the original
TRS-80 to ever really want one. In one of my first consulting jobs
I wrote a bunch of drivers for a customer's Z80 controlled instrument
using the customer's TRS-80 as the development system. It worked just
fine, I guess... it got the job done, but I never did like it all that
much. I kind of liked the TRS80 IV, I think it was, that came out much
later.

-Chuck

FYI: I still use the Color Computer to do laser light shows.
Steve, k,9,d,c,i


"Chuck Harris" wrote in message
...
gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message
...

-Chuck, WA3UQV

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?


Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck

Steve Nosko wrote:
FYI: I still use the Color Computer to do laser light shows.
Steve, k,9,d,c,i

Good for you! I really felt stupid seeing mine in the trash can only a
year or two after having paid $300 for it.
Shoulda kept it? Nah.
Still have that little pocket version with 4k RAM, though. It'll come
in handy someday :-)
-Bill M

Chuck Harris wrote in message ...
gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message ...

-Chuck, WA3UQV

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?


Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck

perhaps one of you guys can tell me this. when you see a unit on ebay
and it says fresh calibration, what exactly does this mean to me as
the buyer? does this mean it will probably be operating ok for a few
years or is this something that has to be done yearly? for the home
shop hobbyist ? thanks.

"gw" wrote in message
m...
Chuck Harris wrote in message
...
gw wrote:
Chuck Harris wrote in message
...

-Chuck, WA3UQV

does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?


Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)

-Chuck

perhaps one of you guys can tell me this. when you see a unit on ebay
and it says fresh calibration, what exactly does this mean to me as
the buyer? does this mean it will probably be operating ok for a few
years or is this something that has to be done yearly? for the home
shop hobbyist ? thanks.

A commercial calibration implies no warranty of future reliability. It just
means that the unit was inspected, by a lab with traceable standards (to
NIST), and that equipment parameters were found to be within the specified
tolerances (or some adjustments we made to allow for proper performance).

Every equipment should be on a periodic schedule of calibration, possibly 6
months or 12 months. The interval is determined by the original
manufacturer's declaration, or from the class of equipment (is it a resistor
or a function generator or an oscilloscope), or from the accumulated record
of a device's calibration history. (A Metrology professional can make a case
for shorter or longer intervals, based on a review of the calibration
history.)

The calibration is valid as of that date only, although it's reasonable to
expect that the calibration will be valid for some time to come (unless the
shipper dropped it as it went out the cal lab's door!).

All that said, a traceable calibration is an indication that the equipment
has been treated in a professional manner, and I would view that as a
definite plus when considering a purchase.


Ed
WB6WSN

Fresh calibration, should mean that it was fully tested out,
cleaned and calibrated by a technician who knew what he was
doing....

What it actually means is anybodies guess. It could be actually
calibrated, it could be that the guy bought it surplus, turned
it on, and it lit up.

The words "fresh calibration" without an express warranty are
worthless.

Most anything Tektronix or HP made will stay in calibration to
close enough for hobbiest use for years.

A real bonifide business won't be comfortable using test equipment
that is out of calibration for anything very important. It is
their assurance that all of the functions should be working properly.

-Chuck, WA3UQV

gw wrote:

perhaps one of you guys can tell me this. when you see a unit on ebay
and it says fresh calibration, what exactly does this mean to me as
the buyer? does this mean it will probably be operating ok for a few
years or is this something that has to be done yearly? for the home
shop hobbyist ? thanks.