Ted Zateslo wrote in message
...
RadioGuy wrote:

I still have yet to find the production data of the 6146 (how many
manufactured)---my two hour long Google search still has come to
naught.
Similarly, production data for the 6JB6 (how many manufactured) has
escaped
me as well and would be of additional interest in this running thread.

I don't know how one could track down the numbers, but I've been thinking
about
the relative abundance of these tubes.

The 6JB6 was a Novar version of the 6GW6 octal sweep tube. In the early
60's
RCA was introducing Novar sweep tubes, some of which were electrically the
same
as earlier types, and some of which were new. GE was doing the same thing
with
12-pin Compactron sweep tubes. The 6JB6 was meant for black-and-white
TVs, but
by the mid 60's, comparatively few B/W sets used transformer power
supplies --
most were "portable" sets with series-string heaters, and would have used,
for
example, a 17JB6 in the horizontal output. So the 6JB6 was probably not a
huge seller, compared to the 17JB6, or to the 6-volt color tubes like the
6JE6 which were used a lot.

The 6146 was originally designed by RCA in response to George Grammer,
W1DF,
QST technical editor, so it came about because of amateur radio, but it
was used in large numbers in GE and Motorola VHF 2-way radios.

There were a lot more TV sets than 2-way radios made, but it could be
that the relatively small number of transformer-powered black-and-white
TVs in the 60s meant that 6JB6 production was fairly low. I wouldn't
be suprised if there were more 6146's (of all variations) made than
6JB6's.

Ted Zateslo, W1XO

Thank you Ted for your valuable input regarding the 6JB6. I think I am
begining to see a picture develop... Somewhere I learned that Drake was
buying those Sylvania 6JB6's for 50 cents apiece. That was fine for
Sylvania with a bunch of tubes and no market in TV receivers and made for a
better profit margin for Drake. When it came to a choice for a final tube
Drake said to heck with the 6146's. I note that inside the rig there was a
note that the tubes were to be replaced with Sylvania tubes only. Some
speculate that this might have been due to some special deal or
understanding between Drake and Sylvania or perhaps it was simply due to
lack of interchangability. But then, I think some mentioned that the RCA
tubes worked just as well and the Sylvania claim had no merit. Yet, some
have stated that the use of RCA tubes introduced electrical instablity at
the higher frequency ranges; ten meters for example (neutralization didn't
help). Nevertheless, I feel satisfied that Drake's choice for final tubes
was primarilly based upon a profit motive---the 6146 would have been a
better/proper choice but Drake wanted more more for less so they used those
tubes that they salvaged at low cost from a failed niche in the TV receiver
market.

Yea... gosh... I hate to admit it... I got on 2-metes with one of those
Motorola 'Cement Mixer' radios---the one with the sloping front---D43 I
think---it was later turned into a repeater. Gee... lot's of us had those
things in the trunk of our cars with that hidious speaker on the dash board
and the hand mike---that could be used as a weapon in the last resort. Not
to forget the based loaded CB whip modified into a 5/8 vertical for
2-meters. It was years before before Drake came out with the TR-22 (made by
Trio/Kenwood), along side with Genave, Kyokuto, Regency...

RG

RadioGuy wrote:

Thank you Ted for your valuable input regarding the 6JB6. I think I am
begining to see a picture develop... Somewhere I learned that Drake was
buying those Sylvania 6JB6's for 50 cents apiece. That was fine for
Sylvania with a bunch of tubes and no market in TV receivers and made for a
better profit margin for Drake. When it came to a choice for a final tube
Drake said to heck with the 6146's. I note that inside the rig there was a
note that the tubes were to be replaced with Sylvania tubes only. Some
speculate that this might have been due to some special deal or
understanding between Drake and Sylvania or perhaps it was simply due to
lack of interchangability.

Different brands of tubes had slight variations in internal
capacitance and could upset the neutralization. By sticking with one
brand you had a better chance of changing the tube and being able to go
right back on the air.


--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Ted Zateslo wrote:
RadioGuy wrote:


I still have yet to find the production data of the 6146 (how many
manufactured)---my two hour long Google search still has come to naught.
Similarly, production data for the 6JB6 (how many manufactured) has escaped
me as well and would be of additional interest in this running thread.


I don't know how one could track down the numbers, but I've been thinking about
the relative abundance of these tubes.

The 6JB6 was a Novar version of the 6GW6 octal sweep tube. In the early 60's
RCA was introducing Novar sweep tubes, some of which were electrically the same
as earlier types, and some of which were new. GE was doing the same thing with
12-pin Compactron sweep tubes. The 6JB6 was meant for black-and-white TVs, but
by the mid 60's, comparatively few B/W sets used transformer power supplies --
most were "portable" sets with series-string heaters, and would have used, for
example, a 17JB6 in the horizontal output. So the 6JB6 was probably not a
huge seller, compared to the 17JB6, or to the 6-volt color tubes like the
6JE6 which were used a lot.

The 6146 was originally designed by RCA in response to George Grammer, W1DF,
QST technical editor, so it came about because of amateur radio, but it
was used in large numbers in GE and Motorola VHF 2-way radios.

There were a lot more TV sets than 2-way radios made, but it could be
that the relatively small number of transformer-powered black-and-white
TVs in the 60s meant that 6JB6 production was fairly low. I wouldn't
be suprised if there were more 6146's (of all variations) made than
6JB6's.

Ted Zateslo, W1XO

The 6JB6 was used in about 50% of RCA's B&W TV line from 1964 till at
least 1967. They had power transformers in most 23 inch TVs and high end
19 Inch sets. Zenith also used this tube is some chassis in the 1964 line.

Bill Cohn - N9MHT
Former Zenith B&W TV design engineer

Bill Cohn billcohn1.comcast.net wrote in message
...
Ted Zateslo wrote:
RadioGuy wrote:


I still have yet to find the production data of the 6146 (how many
manufactured)---my two hour long Google search still has come to
naught.
Similarly, production data for the 6JB6 (how many manufactured) has
escaped
me as well and would be of additional interest in this running thread.


I don't know how one could track down the numbers, but I've been
thinking about
the relative abundance of these tubes.

The 6JB6 was a Novar version of the 6GW6 octal sweep tube. In the early
60's
RCA was introducing Novar sweep tubes, some of which were electrically
the same
as earlier types, and some of which were new. GE was doing the same
thing with
12-pin Compactron sweep tubes. The 6JB6 was meant for black-and-white
TVs, but
by the mid 60's, comparatively few B/W sets used transformer power
supplies --
most were "portable" sets with series-string heaters, and would have
used, for
example, a 17JB6 in the horizontal output. So the 6JB6 was probably not
a
huge seller, compared to the 17JB6, or to the 6-volt color tubes like
the
6JE6 which were used a lot.

The 6146 was originally designed by RCA in response to George Grammer,
W1DF,
QST technical editor, so it came about because of amateur radio, but it
was used in large numbers in GE and Motorola VHF 2-way radios.

There were a lot more TV sets than 2-way radios made, but it could be
that the relatively small number of transformer-powered black-and-white
TVs in the 60s meant that 6JB6 production was fairly low. I wouldn't
be suprised if there were more 6146's (of all variations) made than
6JB6's.

Ted Zateslo, W1XO

The 6JB6 was used in about 50% of RCA's B&W TV line from 1964 till at
least 1967. They had power transformers in most 23 inch TVs and high end
19 Inch sets. Zenith also used this tube is some chassis in the 1964 line.

Bill Cohn - N9MHT
Former Zenith B&W TV design engineer

Bill, it sure would be nice if you could estimate the number of TV's in that
run that used the 6JB6. I suspect those RCA TV's used the RCA 6JB6; what
about the Zenith TV's?. Do you have any thoughts regarding the Sylvania
6JB6's?

RG

RadioGuy wrote:
Bill Cohn billcohn1.comcast.net wrote in message
...

Ted Zateslo wrote:

RadioGuy wrote:



I still have yet to find the production data of the 6146 (how many
manufactured)---my two hour long Google search still has come to

naught.

Similarly, production data for the 6JB6 (how many manufactured) has

escaped

me as well and would be of additional interest in this running thread.


I don't know how one could track down the numbers, but I've been

thinking about

the relative abundance of these tubes.

The 6JB6 was a Novar version of the 6GW6 octal sweep tube. In the early

60's

RCA was introducing Novar sweep tubes, some of which were electrically

the same

as earlier types, and some of which were new. GE was doing the same

thing with

12-pin Compactron sweep tubes. The 6JB6 was meant for black-and-white

TVs, but

by the mid 60's, comparatively few B/W sets used transformer power

supplies --

most were "portable" sets with series-string heaters, and would have

used, for

example, a 17JB6 in the horizontal output. So the 6JB6 was probably not

a

huge seller, compared to the 17JB6, or to the 6-volt color tubes like

the

6JE6 which were used a lot.

The 6146 was originally designed by RCA in response to George Grammer,

W1DF,

QST technical editor, so it came about because of amateur radio, but it
was used in large numbers in GE and Motorola VHF 2-way radios.

There were a lot more TV sets than 2-way radios made, but it could be
that the relatively small number of transformer-powered black-and-white
TVs in the 60s meant that 6JB6 production was fairly low. I wouldn't
be suprised if there were more 6146's (of all variations) made than
6JB6's.

Ted Zateslo, W1XO


The 6JB6 was used in about 50% of RCA's B&W TV line from 1964 till at
least 1967. They had power transformers in most 23 inch TVs and high end
19 Inch sets. Zenith also used this tube is some chassis in the 1964 line.

Bill Cohn - N9MHT
Former Zenith B&W TV design engineer


Bill, it sure would be nice if you could estimate the number of TV's in that
run that used the 6JB6. I suspect those RCA TV's used the RCA 6JB6; what
about the Zenith TV's?. Do you have any thoughts regarding the Sylvania
6JB6's?

RG


To answer your question about an estimate of how many sets were in those
runs I would gues probably between 100,000 and 200,000 sets. I am sure
that its at least an order of magnitude more than the number of Drake Rigs.

Although you would expect that RCA used their own tubes that was not
necessarily true. Zenith used both RCA and Sylvania tubes that they had
custom branded. It was also not out of the question for RCA to get their
run of 6JB6s from Sylvania or vica versa. Not all tube manufacturers
made all tube types and often traded types to make it look like they
made a complete line.

73 de N9MHT - Bill

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:45:14 GMT, Dave Heil
wrote:
Dave,
You're correct on the WRL sweep tube PA's. I have a Galaxy GT-550
with 2 6LQ6's, and it is rated at 550 Watts PEP input!
RadioGuy wrote:

Well, the tube (6146) was in constant production during Drakes operation
(about 30 years) so it would imply that they were very common and
cheap---practically every other amateur equipment manufacturer was using the
6146.

Not quite. Yaesu used sweep tubes widely as did Swan, WRL, National,
Heathkit (in some transceivers) and even Hallicrafters (in some
transceivers).

Large numbers were used by the military and commercial services. My
gosh... if Heath was using them they certaintly couldn't have been that
prohibitive to design with. So it begs the question why Drake was using
them.

They likely got really good prices on them. In addition, a pair of
6146's was good for 80-100w output. A pair of 6JB6's in the Drake T4-XC
was good for about 140w. Swan and WRL pushed a pair of other tubes to
even higher output.

Dave K8MN

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:50:10 GMT, "RadioGuy"
wrote:

Ted Bruce wrote in message
.. .
You mentioned that Heathkit used 6146's in virtually all of their
gear. That is a valid statement, but they used 6GE5 sweep tubes in
the lower price-point HW-series monobanders, including the ones for
MARS/CAP. It was a purely a matter of economics, I think. Retail
price aside, there had to have been more manufacturing volume on the
sweep tubes, because just about every family had a TV set.

I now have a 4B-line, and also a bunch of HW-series rigs. The 6GE5's
are fairly inexpensive even today, compared to 6146A's or W's or the
later GE 6146B's that Heathikit blessed.

73,
Ted KX4OM

Yup... for sure... I forgot about those monobanders. I even had one
myself---the HW-32A.

Well, you raise the question that's been on my mind for quite awhile---just
what was the production on the 6146? I don't have the slightest idea how to
find that tidbit. They were well in production before TV became
commonplace---maybe 10 years or so. Just what was the production figure on
the 6JB6? To be honest the 6JB6 doesn't sound like a common tube. I recall
the horizontal deflection amplifier tubes like the 6DQ5 and 6DQ6 but looking
in my 1961 RCA tube handbook I don't seen the 6JB6 listed.

I recall, Kenwood had 6146's in their TS-520, correct me if I'm wrong but
wasn't it a 6146 of Japanese production ( I remember they had the shiny
chrome finish on the metal surfaces that typified some of the Japanese
parts)?

RG

You're right about the Kenwoods. I just sold a TS-530S that I bought
new in 1983, and it used 6146B's. It was rated at 220W PEP Input,
about 10% higher than the 6146/6146A rigs. I don't recall how the
finals looked. I opened the case only one time, to enable the WARC
bands. Boy, that was one fine radio! I used it for only 7 ARRL-log
pages worth of contacts, mostly some skeds with relatives and playing
around during contests. I kept it in a zipped up bag that you buy
pillows in. When I auctioned it, I packed it in the original double
box with the styrofoam inserts, and it looked brand new. I knew that
I would never be able to repair it myself, since it was a hybrid
mostly transistorized rig. So, I let it go, and bought an HW-101, and
got my Drake 4B line out of storage.

By the way, Glen Zook, K9STH is an authority on the 6146 family.
Check out his site at http://home.comcast.net/~k9sth/

Ted KX4OM

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:53:06 GMT, "RadioGuy"
wrote:


Edward Knobloch wrote in message
news:gXF1e.23644$I16.22572@trndny03...
Hi, Gang

The 6146 was introduced by RCA in Jan 1952 QST (full page ad).
It was advertised as the big brother to the 2E26, which had been around
since about 1946.

73,
Ed Knobloch

Thank you Ed for the information. I knew the 6146 went back to the early
50's or so but I didn't know it was 1952; I did find tube specifications
dated May 1952 though. I had absolutely no idea that the 2E26 went back to
1946---that is interesting!

I remember those RCA ads on the back of QST; they probably would look real
nice in the radio-room after being mounted and framed. I recall one that
proudly advertised the 5763, 2E26 and 6146 as the ideal tube line-up for a
transmitter.

RG


RG, Check out my response to you on the topic of "Drake Finals".
Actually, you've probably deleted that...see Glen Zook's page at
http://home.comcast.net/~k9sth/

Ted KX4OM

Ted Bruce wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:50:10 GMT, "RadioGuy"
wrote:

Ted Bruce wrote in message
.. .
You mentioned that Heathkit used 6146's in virtually all of their
gear. That is a valid statement, but they used 6GE5 sweep tubes in
the lower price-point HW-series monobanders, including the ones for
MARS/CAP. It was a purely a matter of economics, I think. Retail
price aside, there had to have been more manufacturing volume on the
sweep tubes, because just about every family had a TV set.

I now have a 4B-line, and also a bunch of HW-series rigs. The 6GE5's
are fairly inexpensive even today, compared to 6146A's or W's or the
later GE 6146B's that Heathikit blessed.

73,
Ted KX4OM

Yup... for sure... I forgot about those monobanders. I even had one
myself---the HW-32A.

Well, you raise the question that's been on my mind for quite
awhile---just
what was the production on the 6146? I don't have the slightest idea how
to
find that tidbit. They were well in production before TV became
commonplace---maybe 10 years or so. Just what was the production figure
on
the 6JB6? To be honest the 6JB6 doesn't sound like a common tube. I
recall
the horizontal deflection amplifier tubes like the 6DQ5 and 6DQ6 but
looking
in my 1961 RCA tube handbook I don't seen the 6JB6 listed.

I recall, Kenwood had 6146's in their TS-520, correct me if I'm wrong but
wasn't it a 6146 of Japanese production ( I remember they had the shiny
chrome finish on the metal surfaces that typified some of the Japanese
parts)?

RG

You're right about the Kenwoods. I just sold a TS-530S that I bought
new in 1983, and it used 6146B's. It was rated at 220W PEP Input,
about 10% higher than the 6146/6146A rigs. I don't recall how the
finals looked. I opened the case only one time, to enable the WARC
bands. Boy, that was one fine radio! I used it for only 7 ARRL-log
pages worth of contacts, mostly some skeds with relatives and playing
around during contests. I kept it in a zipped up bag that you buy
pillows in. When I auctioned it, I packed it in the original double
box with the styrofoam inserts, and it looked brand new. I knew that
I would never be able to repair it myself, since it was a hybrid
mostly transistorized rig. So, I let it go, and bought an HW-101, and
got my Drake 4B line out of storage.

By the way, Glen Zook, K9STH is an authority on the 6146 family.
Check out his site at http://home.comcast.net/~k9sth/

Ted KX4OM

Hi Ted... I lost myself in this thread... well, that's how it all got
started. I was going through my Drake stuff when I looked at my tube spares;
sets of 3 matched 6JB6's for the TR-4. The price I paid at AES for each set
back in the late 70's was marked on the packages---$18.00 and they are going
for nearly $100 today! My mind wandered to the 6146's and the question was
born---why didn't Drake use the 6146's instead of those sweep tubes?
Decades back those 6146's seemed to be everywhere. Heck, I had a bunch that
I was given not to mention what I collected here and there. You are right,
the matched 6JB6's cost more than the $20 I quoted but I tried to be fair
and compared a single 6DQ6 to a single 6JB6. Looking at what a matched set
of 6JB6's cost for my TR-4 they seem closer to $30 each (the last time I
checked).

Through the course of conversation I began to feel that Drake used those
tubes to increase their profit margin since they were available nearly
surplus (no longer used in TV designs) at $0.50 apiece (based upon what I
read somewhere). I tried to find the relative quantities produced; 6JB6's
compared to the 6146. I think we ended up somewhere that there were many
more 6146's made than the 6JB6's---so the price... classical economics
rules. If the tubes used in the Drake gear were 6146's, more than likely
they would go for around $10.00 each (I've seen them go for around $6 to
$7). Its interesting to reflect that with all the amateur rigs out there
that used the 6146; from the Ranger I and the KWM-2 (and who knows what
else) maybe ending somewhere with the Kenwood gear of the 80's, the price of
the 6146 has effectively escaped the price escalation that seems to have
affected the 6JB6.

Anyway, I found some interesting articles on the web; QST (1980) by Doug
DeMaw and in 73 (1975) by a young Dave Ingram (now of CQ magazine). The
articles present design information related to the use of sweep tubes in rf
power amplifiers. I'm sure the boatanchor group would like reading through
them, besides, you just can't miss Doug's 2-meter amplifier using two 6JB6'
s!

http://www.thermionic.org/sweep.html

Thanks for the link. Yes. that article on the family of 6146 tubes was
informative.

RG

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 00:44:57 GMT, "RadioGuy"
wrote:




Hi Ted... I lost myself in this thread... well, that's how it all got
started. I was going through my Drake stuff when I looked at my tube spares;
sets of 3 matched 6JB6's for the TR-4. The price I paid at AES for each set
back in the late 70's was marked on the packages---$18.00 and they are going
for nearly $100 today! My mind wandered to the 6146's and the question was
born---why didn't Drake use the 6146's instead of those sweep tubes?
Decades back those 6146's seemed to be everywhere. Heck, I had a bunch that
I was given not to mention what I collected here and there. You are right,
the matched 6JB6's cost more than the $20 I quoted but I tried to be fair
and compared a single 6DQ6 to a single 6JB6. Looking at what a matched set
of 6JB6's cost for my TR-4 they seem closer to $30 each (the last time I
checked).

Through the course of conversation I began to feel that Drake used those
tubes to increase their profit margin since they were available nearly
surplus (no longer used in TV designs) at $0.50 apiece (based upon what I
read somewhere). I tried to find the relative quantities produced; 6JB6's
compared to the 6146. I think we ended up somewhere that there were many
more 6146's made than the 6JB6's---so the price... classical economics
rules. If the tubes used in the Drake gear were 6146's, more than likely
they would go for around $10.00 each (I've seen them go for around $6 to
$7). Its interesting to reflect that with all the amateur rigs out there
that used the 6146; from the Ranger I and the KWM-2 (and who knows what
else) maybe ending somewhere with the Kenwood gear of the 80's, the price of
the 6146 has effectively escaped the price escalation that seems to have
affected the 6JB6.

Anyway, I found some interesting articles on the web; QST (1980) by Doug
DeMaw and in 73 (1975) by a young Dave Ingram (now of CQ magazine). The
articles present design information related to the use of sweep tubes in rf
power amplifiers. I'm sure the boatanchor group would like reading through
them, besides, you just can't miss Doug's 2-meter amplifier using two 6JB6'
s!

http://www.thermionic.org/sweep.html

Thanks for the link. Yes. that article on the family of 6146 tubes was
informative.

RG
RG, I'll definitely check out that site. Yeah, it was a mystery to
me. The Japanese radios I knew of , primarily the Yaesu FT-101 that
one of the guys in the K6NCG club station at Treasure Island in San
Francisco bay used sweep tubes, I'm pretty sure the Henry (Trio) rigs
used them; and I don't know about Swan, which was popular then as a
low cost alternative. Yet Heathkit used 6146s in their premier line,
the SB and later, HW-101 rigs.

I have heard stories of sweep tubes melting down under sustained load,
but I have a true story regarding the 6146. When I was stationed at
TI, we lived in Navy-sponsored housing in Oakland. The landlord of
the apartment lived just underneath us on the 1st floor. They agreed
to let me put up one of those Miniproducts half-wave triband
verticals. One day after a QSO I was turning away from the rig and
simultaneously turning the SB-100 off. About 45 minutes later, the
landlady came up and asked if I was on the air, because their tv set
was blanking out constantly. I said that I had been, but I was off
the air now. then I walked over and checked the rig...I hadn't turned
it off 45 minutes earlier, I had switched it to the "Tune" position!
I had been generating full carrier output...as they say, a brick on
the key. Now that's rugged. I finally replaced the tubes with new
6146W's 8 years later, but only because they were given to me by a
friend. I still have the 6146Ws; I'm going to put them in my HW-101
sometime this week, while I have the rig opened up to shift the
carrier point to the center between USB and LSB.

73,
Ted KX4OM