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[email protected] November 24th 05 12:12 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
All,

I've occasionally seen homebrew tube transceivers on Ebay that range
from really good to too gnarly looking to seem safe. I am thinking of
creating a line of clean-looking, attractive, rugged tube equipment for
casual or missionary use with a reasonable price/output performance
that is easy to repair and adjust, based on schematics and design
principles that have gone into the public domain.

Would there be an audience? Comments?

The Eternal Squire


Uncle Peter November 24th 05 12:25 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 

wrote in message


Interesting concept... But, there doesn't appear to be a dearth
of readily available decent boatachor gear. I'm not sure how
much of a market there would be? How much would the gear
cost, what would it do, etc? Sounds like a labor of love!

Pete




Lazy Senior November 24th 05 12:30 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
wrote:


Would there be an audience? Comments?

The Eternal Squire


I doubt you could build them cheaper than available (used)commercial
equiptment. It would have to be a labor of love, I dont think you could
break even.

I used to build my own computers until 6 years ago when I figured out I
could get a Dell or HP much cheaper than what it would cost to build.I
suspect building tube radios would be the same scenario.

Lazy Senior

Uncle Peter November 24th 05 12:50 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 

"Lazy Senior" wrote in message
news:SQ7hf.3355$Qs2.2305@trnddc03...
wrote:


I used to build my own computers until 6 years ago when I figured out I
could get a Dell or HP much cheaper than what it would cost to build.I
suspect building tube radios would be the same scenario.

Lazy Senior


Unfortunately cheap computers usually use properietary
motherboards. Being lazy carries a price beyond the tag.





Beerbarrel November 24th 05 01:19 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:50:19 -0500, " Uncle Peter"
wrote:


"Lazy Senior" wrote in message
news:SQ7hf.3355$Qs2.2305@trnddc03...
wrote:


I used to build my own computers until 6 years ago when I figured out I
could get a Dell or HP much cheaper than what it would cost to build.I
suspect building tube radios would be the same scenario.

Lazy Senior


Unfortunately cheap computers usually use properietary
motherboards. Being lazy carries a price beyond the tag.



hahaha....that's funny and it fits the poster really well. Building
computers in really a misnomer. Anyone can thown a few pc cards
together and flip a power switch. Maybe they should try building the
cards from scratch.

Lazy Senior November 24th 05 02:09 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Uncle Peter wrote:


Unfortunately cheap computers usually use properietary
motherboards. Being lazy carries a price beyond the tag.


You know as much about computers as you do BA or hamradio. My HP, the
one I am typing on right now has an off the shelf non- prop Asus
motherboard. A ATI Radeon graphic card etc.Built by HP and bought at
Best Buy.

Since I maintained computers for a living for over 30 years, I suspect I
know more than the average person about them and since you are stupider
than average I know a WHOLE lot more than you when it comes to computers.

Anyway there isnt anything wrong with propreitary motherboards.
Laptops are outselling desktops right now and they are all properietary
and they work just fine.

Lazy Senior










Lazy Senior November 24th 05 02:11 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Beerbarrel wrote:


hahaha....that's funny and it fits the poster really well. Building
computers in really a misnomer. Anyone can thown a few pc cards
together and flip a power switch. Maybe they should try building the
cards from scratch.


Gosh I must really bug you

Lazy Senior

Uncle Peter November 24th 05 02:18 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 

"Lazy Senior" wrote in message
news:Kh9hf.687$mJ2.149@trnddc02...
Uncle Peter wrote:


Unfortunately cheap computers usually use properietary
motherboards. Being lazy carries a price beyond the tag.

Since I maintained computers for a living for over 30 years, I suspect

I
know more than the average person about them and since you are stupider
than average I know a WHOLE lot more than you when it comes to computers.

Anyway there isnt anything wrong with propreitary motherboards.
Laptops are outselling desktops right now and they are all properietary
and they work just fine.

Lazy Senior



And, you're full of crap, too! Lazy, and full of crap.. A terrible way to
go through life! Where did I say they "didn't work"? Learn how
to read. You have no clue go play with your $389 wonder.

Pete




Lazy Senior November 24th 05 02:23 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Uncle Peter wrote:



And, you're full of crap, too! Lazy, and full of crap.. A terrible way to
go through life! Where did I say they "didn't work"? Learn how
to read. You have no clue go play with your $389 wonder.

Pete


I guess I bug you too.

Lazy Senior


Steve November 24th 05 02:32 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
How about offering these as kits? Maybe even offering them
with or without tubes? If you're able to keep the cost low I
think you have a shot.

Steve

wrote in message
oups.com...
All,

I've occasionally seen homebrew tube transceivers on Ebay that range
from really good to too gnarly looking to seem safe. I am thinking of
creating a line of clean-looking, attractive, rugged tube equipment for
casual or missionary use with a reasonable price/output performance
that is easy to repair and adjust, based on schematics and design
principles that have gone into the public domain.

Would there be an audience? Comments?

The Eternal Squire




Lazy Senior November 24th 05 02:34 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Steve wrote:
How about offering these as kits? Maybe even offering them
with or without tubes? If you're able to keep the cost low I
think you have a shot.

Steve


I dunno, a company called Heathkit tried that and went belly up.

Lazy senior

Phil Nelson November 24th 05 03:12 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
How about offering these as kits? Maybe even offering them
with or without tubes? If you're able to keep the cost low I
think you have a shot.


A few years ago, somebody (Ghostmoon?) offered kits to make an "All American
Five" five-tube AM radio. They were quite expensive, and the company did not
last.

Antique Electronic Supply (http://www.tubesandmore.com/ ) offers a few
tube-based kits for various things. You could try phoning them and ask what
sort of demand there is for that kind of thing in general.

I suppose you would be competing with existing solid-state kits. If you
Google around, you can find what's available and what it costs, etc.

Regards,

Phil Nelson



Ron in Radio Heaven November 24th 05 03:28 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Lazy Senior wrote:
Gosh I must really bug you
Lazy Senior


I know for sure that this continuous BS is bugging ME
and probably a lot of other people too.

Drop it and let's go back to talking about BAs.

Ron

Bill November 24th 05 03:53 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
wrote:

All,

I've occasionally seen homebrew tube transceivers on Ebay that range
from really good to too gnarly looking to seem safe. I am thinking of
creating a line of clean-looking, attractive, rugged tube equipment for
casual or missionary use with a reasonable price/output performance
that is easy to repair and adjust, based on schematics and design
principles that have gone into the public domain.

Would there be an audience? Comments?

The Eternal Squire


I don't think there is an audience. Here's why I feel that way...

Anybody that wants the hassle of a 'homebrew' tube xcvr just for giggles
is well advised to just pick up a $50 HW-100 (or similar) on ebay. You
get a slippy dial drive, you get to re-address old problems that were
inherent in its original day, you get to fork over the sale price once
again for a good set of finals and a few other tubes.

I dealt with some missionaries in the 70s and the LAST thing they wanted
was a tube rig. Plug-n-play, never-fail solid-state are where that
market is. If you're in the Amazon backwaters of Brasil you don't want
temperamental stuff. You can't just check into an internet forum like
this and beg a few new tubes and they show up in the mail a week later.

As for home-based hams...there's a definite thrill of using a homebrew
rig but all that is lost when its somebody else's homebrew rig.

I'm a proud Galaxy V owner, nice rig, cheap enough, I've got enough
sweat equity into it to where I have an affinity for it. I can't
imagine anyone else liking it as much as I do.

-Bill

Chuck Harris November 24th 05 04:16 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Lazy Senior wrote:
Steve wrote:

How about offering these as kits? Maybe even offering them
with or without tubes? If you're able to keep the cost low I
think you have a shot.

Steve


I dunno, a company called Heathkit tried that and went belly up.


Heathkit didn't go belly up because kits were not profitable;
Heathkit went out of business because their new owner had no
interest in a kit company, but rather wanted the assets of the
Zenith computer company.

Heath continues to this day making security devices, lamp fixtures,
and a number of other mundane products.

-Chuck

[email protected] November 24th 05 04:26 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
I think that Heathkit had to be put to sleep because the world had
changed and Heathkit slowly became irrelevant for many different
reasons, some of them permanent, some of them not.

If one keeps those reasons in mind while creating the business plan,
then the only thing left to do is to determine a competitive
price/performance point based on market research.

My thoughts:

1) Kits are not realistic except in upper end niche markets such as
Elecraft due to issues of customer support and liability.

2) I'm not thinking of making rigs capable of world-burning performance
for DX chasing or contesting. Most people are appliance operators,
sad to say and want to just hook up the rigt to power, antenna, and
antenna and go. What I have in mind are gear capable point to point
shortwave links, essentially cross-country rag chew, SSB for Generals
and above, with CW thrown in for the Tech+ and above.

3) What I can think I can offer in gear is stable operation in
abuse-proof enclosures at slightly higher power levels. Part of the
way I can do this is to use 21rst century materials and manufacturing
methods to implement mid-20th century mechanical requirements.

4) There are also a few natural advantages that tube gear has that
semiconductors do not: tube gear is less likely to break upon exposure
to dirty power, EMP, and bad SWR.

5) New tubes are still being made by Russia and China and this will
quite likely stay that way for the forseeable future. Purists might
turn thier nose up at using these tubes, but something workable could
be made out of them for a reasonable price.

7) Also, the price of US manufacturing, and labor are just too high for
anything other than creating a prototype. Basically I am creating a
very useful toy, but only a toy, and will most likely need to import
the manufacturing and labor.

8) I should only offer 80, 40, 30, 20, and 18 meters. I want to stay
as far away from 10 meters as I can, due to possible use of hacked gear
on 11 meters. I don't believe the audience for 160 is very large.

More thoughts?

The Eternal Squire


Lazy Senior November 24th 05 04:32 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Ron in Radio Heaven wrote:
Lazy Senior wrote:

Gosh I must really bug you
Lazy Senior



I know for sure that this continuous BS is bugging ME
and probably a lot of other people too.

Drop it and let's go back to talking about BAs.

Ron


Beerbarrel, Uncle Pete, and Chuckee seem to have a grudge against me and
wont stop. Every post I do they want to humilate me. And I never back
from a fight....

If it bugs you - - ALL email clients have filters, use them and you wont
have to read this crap. I use the filters all the time for FA and FS ads
and also people I dont like to read. I havent filtered the above 3 jerks
- yet.

Lazy Senior

Lazy Senior November 24th 05 04:36 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
wrote:


More thoughts?

The Eternal Squire


One thing YOU must keep in mind - ALL HAMS ARE CHEAP -

It is a gene we all have. Even rich hams I know are cheap.

We go to to the local hamstore to demo equiptment (or at a hamfest) and
then go home and order on the internet to save money.

Lazy Senior

[email protected] November 24th 05 04:46 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Oh, I LOVED the Galaxy V mark II. It was the rig I grew up on! When
my folks got divorced when I was in college they stored it in a garage
and it got rusted out completely. My second best choice is the Yaesu
FT-101E or EE, I had the E rig in my first marriage but I lost it in
the divorce and bankruptcy. I just got a Yaesu FT-101EE to reactivate
the communications part of the hobby. I am a builder, primarly, and
have been for decades.

I beg to differ regarding tube gear being tempermental. Badly designed
tube gear is certainly inferior to established solid state gear. But
well designed tube gear (Collins class and some military) is better
than most solid state gear. Success depends on a lot of factoris:
electronic design, mechanical engineering, manufacturing methods and
techniques, parts sources, pricing, and profit margin.

The FT-101, Galaxy, Drake, and Swan are not $100 pieces of gear on
EBay, they are more like $300 to $400 pretty consistencly. I think a
fully loaded multiband fresh boatanchor should sell quite nicely for
$199.95 it if offers compareable features. That would imply a
wholesale price of about $100.00. That would imply that parts, labor,
and other indirect costs should be somewhere between $50 to $80. I
think I can get from Russia or China a single sweep tube plus a handful
of smaller tubes for about $30. The rest would have to be chassis,
discretes, power, labor, shipping, and customs.

Now, if I market direct through the net rather than through a retailer,
I think I could go self sustaining after a few build-sales cycles.

If the people on this topic would be willing to be a focus group for
the fresh boat-anchor of thier dreams, I would be quite grateful.

The Eternal Squire


[email protected] November 24th 05 04:52 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Oh yes.. this I know. What a ham wants is the most miles to the
galleon, just like a car. But what is quality to a ham? Clear
audio, no spurs, sharp passbands, and suppressed harmonics. Easy
repair and replacement by self too, right? Plus ruggedness.

Anything else?

The Eternal Squire


[email protected] November 24th 05 04:55 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Senior,

One can only be made to feel inferior by one's own consent. If you
believe you are better than they are, then they can't hurt you no
matter what they say.

The Eternal Squire


Bill November 24th 05 05:08 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
wrote:

Oh, I LOVED the Galaxy V mark II.

The FT-101, Galaxy, Drake, and Swan are not $100 pieces of gear on
EBay, they are more like $300 to $400 pretty consistencly. I think a
fully loaded multiband fresh boatanchor should sell quite nicely for
$199.95 it if offers compareable features. That would imply a
wholesale price of about $100.00. That would imply that parts, labor,
and other indirect costs should be somewhere between $50 to $80. I
think I can get from Russia or China a single sweep tube plus a handful
of smaller tubes for about $30. The rest would have to be chassis,
discretes, power, labor, shipping, and customs.

Now, if I market direct through the net rather than through a retailer,
I think I could go self sustaining after a few build-sales cycles.


Since I dove into this water...I'll continue my nay-saying even tho I
love BAs.

You say FT-101, etc...aren't $100 pieces of gear on ebay. Thats too
broad and maybe your perspective is different than mine. As found
Galaxy V are lucky to get $100, as are HW-100. FT-101, Kwood TS-520,
Swan 350-500, Drake TR-3/4 will garner twice that in "last time I fired
it up it worked" condition. I've given away two Galaxy V in as found
condition this year because they couldn't be sold at any price.

I'm not clear if you are suggesting building these things from scratch
or taking older xcvrs and refurbing them. If you haven't walked this
talk I suspect you'd find out very quickly that paying $35 for an old
Galaxy and refurbing it at maybe a cost of a dozen hours of labour you
might get $125 on resale on a good day when there are no other buyers
that could do the same thing for their own purpose.

To do an equivalent Galaxy 5 from scratch for $199 commercial resale?
No way.

If the people on this topic would be willing to be a focus group for
the fresh boat-anchor of thier dreams, I would be quite grateful.


Well, you have my input. I'll never discourage rolling your own but
trying to make a bizness out of it is a whole nuther can of worms.

-Bill WX4A

Michael Black November 24th 05 05:23 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Bill ) writes:

You say FT-101, etc...aren't $100 pieces of gear on ebay. Thats too
broad and maybe your perspective is different than mine. As found
Galaxy V are lucky to get $100, as are HW-100. FT-101, Kwood TS-520,
Swan 350-500, Drake TR-3/4 will garner twice that in "last time I fired
it up it worked" condition. I've given away two Galaxy V in as found
condition this year because they couldn't be sold at any price.

And of course, people want the boatanchors because they are old, because
they are the rig they had when they were first in the hobby or because
they lusted after the rig decades ago but couldn't afford it. I suspect
that is the major reason, rather than because they are tube-based. Take
away that familiarity, and the interested number will also drop.

People will pay more now the more expensive it was in the first place, but
that may be as much because fewer bought them back then (hence fewer
exist) than because they are better rigs.

Michael VE2BVW


[email protected] November 24th 05 05:27 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
You say FT-101, etc...aren't $100 pieces of gear on ebay. Thats too
broad and maybe your perspective is different than mine. As found
Galaxy V are lucky to get $100, as are HW-100. FT-101, Kwood TS-520,
Swan 350-500, Drake TR-3/4 will garner twice that in "last time I fired
it up it worked" condition. I've given away two Galaxy V in as found
condition this year because they couldn't be sold at any price.


Found condition is the key. I'm sorry, but I got into bidding wars at
least 3 or more times trying to get a Yaesu in guaranteed working
condition with recent maintenance.

I'm not clear if you are suggesting building these things from scratch
or taking older xcvrs and refurbing them. If you haven't walked this
talk I suspect you'd find out very quickly that paying $35 for an old
Galaxy and refurbing it at maybe a cost of a dozen hours of labour you
might get $125 on resale on a good day when there are no other buyers
that could do the same thing for their own purpose.


Nope, I am indeed talking scratch.

To do an equivalent Galaxy 5 from scratch for $199 commercial resale?
No way.


Why not?

Well, you have my input. I'll never discourage rolling your own but
trying to make a bizness out of it is a whole nuther can of worms.


Oh, and I so much appreciate that. That is not sarcasm.

The Eternal Squire


[email protected] November 24th 05 05:32 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Michael:

How about a thought experiment? Assuming we don't consider copyright,
patent, trademark, or other issues. Say God gave me the gift of being
able to create a Collins-class rig at 1/2 to 1/3 the usual price on
Ebay? Would that be tempting?

The Eternal Squikre


[email protected] November 24th 05 05:39 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
And of course, people want the boatanchors because they are old
Collectors rather than operators, right?

they are the rig they had when they were first in the hobby

Yes, but also because they found later, purportedly more modern
equipment,
to be harder to operate or repair, or easier to break, with replacement
parts
and labor costing more than the rig itself?

they lusted after the rig decades ago but couldn't afford it.

And still can't, in the case of Collins for example.

I suspect that is the major reason, rather than because they are tube-based.

Really? I think it takes a different mentality to operate a tube rig
than a semiconductor or digital rig. I really think the casual tube
rigs were easier for children and adolescents to operate on HF. I had
the worst time trying to understand an ICOM during my 20's, for
example.

Take away that familiarity, and the interested number will also drop.

But what if I kept the familiarity of operation rather than the
familiarity of brand name? Would it drop drastically?

The Eternal Squire


Bill November 24th 05 05:41 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
wrote:



To do an equivalent Galaxy 5 from scratch for $199 commercial resale?
No way.



Why not?


At this point you are daydreaming. Start pricing the components.
You'll likely exceed $199 before you add in any labour.

-Bill

Bill November 24th 05 05:56 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
wrote:



But what if I kept the familiarity of operation rather than the
familiarity of brand name? Would it drop drastically?\


Doesn't work that way anymore. In the old days the manufacturer might
have included a card in the manual that you could stick on a 5 cent
stamp and ask why the rig didn't work.
People don't accept that level of service these days.

I'm not trying to be condescening...YOU buy a Gal V on ebay or swap meet
and try to get it playing to satisfaction for a single year of regular
operation...you'll gain a different perspective. I don't think you can
'homebrew' around these issues. Its always 'something'.

-Bill

[email protected] November 24th 05 06:32 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Maybe not a Galaxy 5 itself, you could be right. Besides, it was a
hybrid rig, not an all- tube rig anyway.

But, what about this lineup for receiver:

1) 3 sets of switchable preselector filter with ganged variable
capacitor with a single dual triode amp, half of which are placed
between each filter.
2) Single dual triode as cascode IF converter, rather than a pentagrid
converter which are hardly made anymore.
3) Single dual triode as differential VFO, glass equivalent of recent
QEX circuit, with oscillator variable capacitor ganged to the
preselector capacitor as part of same set.
4) Single dual triode as pre and post amps to lattice crystal IF
filter.
5) Single dual triode as cascode baseband converter.
6) Single dual triode as differential BFO, similar design to VFO.
7) Push-pull audio power amp... reuse this in transmitter.

Transmitter lineup:

1) Single sweep tube operated class E for CW, modified to class H with
aid of receiver's push pull power amp.
2) Share the preselector for use in postfiltering of the power amp.
3) Use the same differential VFO as the input to the class E amp.

This isn't really SSB: it is more quick and dirty DSB/CW transmitter
with SSB receiver. (If anyone can modify a class E amp for SSB service
I would love to hear about it).

So, this lineup uses a single sweep tube, 6 dual trodes, and a pair of
6L6 equivalents.

Shuguang 807 as sweep tube: $16 retail
Shuguang 6SN7 (VFO) $11 retail
Shuguang 6SN7 (BFO) $11 retail
2 Shuguang 6L6 (Amp/Mod) $25 retail
4 CH-12AX7A $48 retail
-----------------
$111 retail ==
$55 wholesale if I can establish a dealer relationship with supplier.

Tubes: (presumed wholeale) $55
Resistors (NOS wholesale): $10
Caps (NOS wholesale): $10
Power transformer: $5 sheet metal stack
made in LDC
4-gang variable $25 (Soviet make
from EBAY)
Chassis: $20 sheet metal
Planetary gear drive: $15 (cast iron gears
from LDC)
Crystals (NOS wholesale) $5
Rotary Band Switch (NOS EBAY) $10
---------
$140
Labor (20 hours at $1/hour in an LDC) $ 20
---------
$160
Murphy Factor (20%) $ 32
----------
COGS w/labor $192

======================

OK, you are likely right that the wholesale cost is high. But I only
worked this out in 20 minutes using recent surfing, reading, and other
communication. Perhaps with further refinement I can get the cost
down. I added a murphy factor for amortized taxes, freight, and
customs.

BUT: I think I made it with $7 to spare, including labor, so long as I
do not rely on the US for a lot of things.

Maybe $250 would be a more realistic retail price... Not much profit
margin, though, but not much needed for mail order sales if I am only
intending to supplement income rather than support myself.

Thoughts?

The Eternal Squire


Bill November 24th 05 07:05 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
wrote:


$140
Labor (20 hours at $1/hour in an LDC) $ 20
---------
$160
Murphy Factor (20%) $ 32
----------
COGS w/labor $192


Where's the chassis, knobs, tuning caps, IF cans, tube sockets, xtal
filters, cabinet, dial, power xfmr, etc? Any radio homebrewer will tell
you that where the cost is. Tubes are incidental costs.

Bzzt, if you can provide labour for a $1 per hour and understimate the
Murphy factor then you have a chance of breaking even...well no, not
really. Using your figure of 20 hours I calculate that you'll clear an
income of $40 per week on 2 rigs, $60 if you work nites, if you do it
all yourself.

If I could build a Galaxy 5 equivalent in 20 hours...never mind...

Okay. Paying shipping for one single returned rig in this scenario will
have you WISHING you hadn't eaten last week's can of cat food for dinner.

Doesn't wash. You couldn't do this for less than $500 per rig (sans
labour and profit)....and thats why there isn't the market that you imagine.

-Bill

[email protected] November 24th 05 07:15 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
OK


Michael Black November 24th 05 07:37 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
) writes:
And of course, people want the boatanchors because they are old

Collectors rather than operators, right?

they are the rig they had when they were first in the hobby

Yes, but also because they found later, purportedly more modern
equipment,
to be harder to operate or repair, or easier to break, with replacement
parts
and labor costing more than the rig itself?

they lusted after the rig decades ago but couldn't afford it.

And still can't, in the case of Collins for example.

I suspect that is the major reason, rather than because they are tube-based.

Really? I think it takes a different mentality to operate a tube rig
than a semiconductor or digital rig. I really think the casual tube
rigs were easier for children and adolescents to operate on HF. I had
the worst time trying to understand an ICOM during my 20's, for
example.

Take away that familiarity, and the interested number will also drop.

But what if I kept the familiarity of operation rather than the
familiarity of brand name? Would it drop drastically?

Thirty to forty years ago, hams abandoned those old boatanchors.
They wanted the solid state, they wanted the features. The rigs
could barely be given away. Circa 1972 a lot of boatanchor equipment
went through my hands, because people were giving it away, or they
would sell at the radio club auction for five or ten dollars. I let
it go just as easily, because I could trade it for something more
interesting or just to sample what were new things to me.

It's only in recent years that people became really interested
in that old gear. Nostalgia. And the demand raises the prices
of those once useless rigs.

If simplicity is the issue as you think, then through the decades
there would always be basic rigs being manufactured, because
there'd be demand. If people wanted basic, they'd not be
waiting decades for it. And of course, basic does not have
to mean tubes. The bells and whistles were added because ICs
and the like made it easier to add them, but there was no need
to actually add them. There could have been basic solid state
rigs, and of course Ten Tec did offer them, as did some of
the other manufacturers (though Ten Tec lasted longer than
the rest). If you think there's a market for a bare tube
rig because of ease of repair, then it's just as easy to use
discrete transistors (or discretes with some common ICs) to build
a basic solid state rig that is just as easy to repair as that
old HW-100. The only difference is that with a solid state
rig, there's no tubes that can easily be pulled out to take
to the drugstore to test in the tester, which does't matter
because the tube tester isn't there anymore, and neither does
the drugstore sell the common tubes that was the purpose of
the tester being there in the first place.

I can't say I'd spend the money, but I want a Clegg Interceptor
from the early sixties. There is nothing about that receiver that
is better than a more recent and decent receiver. It lacks features,
and of course suffers from a relatively high noise figure that came
with the tubes. I suspect its selectivity is broad compared to more
recent receivers. I don't want it for what it can do, I
want it because I remember reading about it, a decade after it was being
sold, and simply thinking it was a neat receiver.

A copy of the receiver wouldn't be the same, and is pretty inconceivable
given that there will be little demand.

I am conveying what I think about boatanchors, which may be wrong. But
I suspect you are trying to judge a market for such a rig based on your
own desires. If you think there is a market, you need to find those
people who would actually buy it, who actually do share your thinking
on the issue, to prove that there would be a market for such a project.

I still think that most people who pursue boatanchors are doing it
for nostalgia. A case can even be made that they long for simpler
days. But that doesn't mean that they want to give up bells and whistles
and modern designs on a permanent basis. I doubt newcomers to the
hobby are going off to buy that Drake 2B, they'd pursue it later as
another facet of the hobby if they do so at all (though of course
there was a time when they might have started with it, because it
was seen as a "novice" receiver or because it was available used
for cheap). I think most who go after boatanchors have more recent
rigs, and they use the old rigs in tandem, for variety.

Michael VE2BVW


Registered User November 24th 05 07:45 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
On 23 Nov 2005 22:32:37 -0800, wrote:

Maybe not a Galaxy 5 itself, you could be right. Besides, it was a
hybrid rig, not an all- tube rig anyway.

But, what about this lineup for receiver:

1) 3 sets of switchable preselector filter with ganged variable
capacitor with a single dual triode amp, half of which are placed
between each filter.
2) Single dual triode as cascode IF converter, rather than a pentagrid
converter which are hardly made anymore.
3) Single dual triode as differential VFO, glass equivalent of recent
QEX circuit, with oscillator variable capacitor ganged to the
preselector capacitor as part of same set.
4) Single dual triode as pre and post amps to lattice crystal IF
filter.
5) Single dual triode as cascode baseband converter.
6) Single dual triode as differential BFO, similar design to VFO.
7) Push-pull audio power amp... reuse this in transmitter.

Transmitter lineup:

1) Single sweep tube operated class E for CW, modified to class H with
aid of receiver's push pull power amp.
2) Share the preselector for use in postfiltering of the power amp.
3) Use the same differential VFO as the input to the class E amp.

This isn't really SSB: it is more quick and dirty DSB/CW transmitter
with SSB receiver. (If anyone can modify a class E amp for SSB service
I would love to hear about it).

So, this lineup uses a single sweep tube, 6 dual trodes, and a pair of
6L6 equivalents.

Shuguang 807 as sweep tube: $16 retail
Shuguang 6SN7 (VFO) $11 retail
Shuguang 6SN7 (BFO) $11 retail
2 Shuguang 6L6 (Amp/Mod) $25 retail
4 CH-12AX7A $48 retail
-----------------
$111 retail ==
$55 wholesale if I can establish a dealer relationship with supplier.

Tubes: (presumed wholeale) $55
Resistors (NOS wholesale): $10
Caps (NOS wholesale): $10
Power transformer: $5 sheet metal stack
made in LDC
4-gang variable $25 (Soviet make
from EBAY)
Chassis: $20 sheet metal
Planetary gear drive: $15 (cast iron gears
from LDC)
Crystals (NOS wholesale) $5
Rotary Band Switch (NOS EBAY) $10
---------
$140
Labor (20 hours at $1/hour in an LDC) $ 20
---------
$160
Murphy Factor (20%) $ 32
----------
COGS w/labor $192

======================

OK, you are likely right that the wholesale cost is high. But I only
worked this out in 20 minutes using recent surfing, reading, and other
communication. Perhaps with further refinement I can get the cost
down. I added a murphy factor for amortized taxes, freight, and
customs.

BUT: I think I made it with $7 to spare, including labor, so long as I
do not rely on the US for a lot of things.

Maybe $250 would be a more realistic retail price... Not much profit
margin, though, but not much needed for mail order sales if I am only
intending to supplement income rather than support myself.

Thoughts?

What sort of volume will be needed to get the figures mentioned above?
At those numbers a run of a thousand kits will cost $192,000,
probably all up front.

In any case your margins will be quite thin and your hourly rate will
be thin as well.

73 de n4jvp
Fritz

[email protected] November 24th 05 08:02 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Where's the chassis

$20 of Korean sheet metal shaped and drilled by a firm in Africa, see
recent post

knobs


Digikey

tuning caps


4-gang soviet surplus from EBay, see recent post

IF cans


toroids

Tube sockets


PC mount sockets, 50 cents each.

Xtal filter


$1 each, $5 total, see recent post

cabinet


more sheet metal

dial


stenciled plastic, negl cost

power xfrmr


$5 stack of carbon steel made in Africa, see recent post

Using your figure of 20 hours I calculate that you'll clear an
income of $40 per week on 2 rigs, $60 if you work nites, if you do it
all yourself.


No, I'll be using Mexican labor for final assembly

If I could build a Galaxy 5 equivalent in 20 hours...never mind...


No, this is not a Galaxy 5. This is a 21rst century transciever
topology
in glass that may deliver multiband audio/cw contacts at less cost.

Okay. Paying shipping for one single returned rig in this scenario will
have you WISHING you hadn't eaten last week's can of cat food for dinner.


Clearly I would have to reduce mass where I can. I interpret a
boatanchor
as meaning tubes as active units and mechanical tuning with a planetary
drive... I don't intepret that as meaning I have to use 50's-70's era
parts for
anything else or even point to poiint wiring. Maybe I can get the
weight
down to 15 pounds if I use aluminum for chassis and fiberglass or
carbon
composite for case.

You couldn't do this for less than $500 per rig (sans
labour and profit)....


Only I use parts from US and attempt to exactly duplicate a mid-60's
rig. If instead I can outsource nearly everything and never buy
retail,
and if I simply make a FET rig in glass, this might be less.

and thats why there isn't the market that you imagine.


What I have to find out is determine how much someone is willing
to buy a glass rig for that delivers similar functionality as a 60's
rig,
and then determine how many people would buy for that price. At
that point, I have to work backwards to see if I can make parts,
labor, intermediate freight, and customs fees work inside the
interpolated wholesale figure.

So let me ask you... if you had the ability to buy a rig, in glass,
capable of 4 band operation where you could manually tune
and dip the amplifier, that gave you an operating range of 2000
miles on a reference dipole, AND it was built new, HOW MUCH
would you pay for that?

The Eternal Squire


Bill November 24th 05 09:30 AM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
wrote:

Where's the chassis



$20 of Korean sheet metal shaped and drilled by a firm in Africa, see
recent post


You've never done business with Africa and seen the quality of work and
the production delays when the "mail isn't working right".


knobs



Digikey


tuning caps



4-gang soviet surplus from EBay, see recent post


IF cans



toroids


Tube sockets



PC mount sockets, 50 cents each.


Xtal filter



$1 each, $5 total, see recent post


Ask for 400 of all of the above and see how quick those 'surplus'
sources go dark.



Using your figure of 20 hours I calculate that you'll clear an
income of $40 per week on 2 rigs, $60 if you work nites, if you do it
all yourself.



No, I'll be using Mexican labor for final assembly


Not for a buck an hour. Figure 4/hr for Mexican assembly labour but
you'll wind up doing this type of job on unit pricing. Add on about
15-30/hr on the stateside end to QC and align the works.



What I have to find out is determine how much someone is willing
to buy a glass rig for that delivers similar functionality as a 60's
rig,
and then determine how many people would buy for that price. At
that point, I have to work backwards to see if I can make parts,
labor, intermediate freight, and customs fees work inside the
interpolated wholesale figure.

So let me ask you... if you had the ability to buy a rig, in glass,
capable of 4 band operation where you could manually tune
and dip the amplifier, that gave you an operating range of 2000
miles on a reference dipole, AND it was built new, HOW MUCH
would you pay for that?


As a ham, anybody who tried to sell me with a pitch that suggested that
I could talk 2000 miles anytime I wanted to would be met with a red flag
in front of my checkbook. As for pushing the product onto other venues
like missionaries...maybe. There's probably a couple dozen brand names
that have gone down that same pike in the past 20 years and they don't
seem to have survived.

Ok, enough of the nay-saying. Suffice it to say you have no clue about
the costs of production or the market. You're infatuated with making a
tube xcvr for the masses on principle. That, in itself isn't a bad
thing. The results found along your route can ultimately be more
tangible than my opinions and a great resource for the next guy.

I might be interested in a 'Beta' rig for $199, post back when you get
there.

-Bill

Chuck Harris November 24th 05 02:20 PM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Lazy Senior wrote:
Ron in Radio Heaven wrote:

Lazy Senior wrote:

Gosh I must really bug you
Lazy Senior




I know for sure that this continuous BS is bugging ME
and probably a lot of other people too.

Drop it and let's go back to talking about BAs.

Ron



Beerbarrel, Uncle Pete, and Chuckee seem to have a grudge against me and
wont stop. Every post I do they want to humilate me. And I never back
from a fight....


I beg your pardon! You are the one that seems to have a grudge
against the world. You come storming into this group, asking for
opinions, and then get all huffed when the opinions you receive
disagree with your own.

You make political statements that are guaranteed to draw a heated
response, and then get all flustered when they do.

You complain about what a cesspool usenet is, and how this group has
no value, and then you start leaving your brown ducks in our pond.

I have been a contributing member of this group for 3-4 years,
but since your arrival, you have offered nothing of value to anyone....Nothing!

When I asked a simple question about a Swan 350 (knowing that there
were a few Swan 350 users on this group) you took that as an opportunity
to make derisive remarks about me owning a Swan.

Where are your posts with content?

-Chuck

Beerbarrel November 24th 05 02:22 PM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:20:24 -0500, Chuck Harris
wrote:

Lazy Senior wrote:
Ron in Radio Heaven wrote:

Lazy Senior wrote:

Gosh I must really bug you
Lazy Senior



I know for sure that this continuous BS is bugging ME
and probably a lot of other people too.

Drop it and let's go back to talking about BAs.

Ron



Beerbarrel, Uncle Pete, and Chuckee seem to have a grudge against me and
wont stop. Every post I do they want to humilate me. And I never back
from a fight....


I beg your pardon! You are the one that seems to have a grudge
against the world. You come storming into this group, asking for
opinions, and then get all huffed when the opinions you receive
disagree with your own.

You make political statements that are guaranteed to draw a heated
response, and then get all flustered when they do.

You complain about what a cesspool usenet is, and how this group has
no value, and then you start leaving your brown ducks in our pond.

I have been a contributing member of this group for 3-4 years,
but since your arrival, you have offered nothing of value to anyone....Nothing!

When I asked a simple question about a Swan 350 (knowing that there
were a few Swan 350 users on this group) you took that as an opportunity
to make derisive remarks about me owning a Swan.

Where are your posts with content?

-Chuck




Touche!

Uncle Peter November 24th 05 03:00 PM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 

wrote in message
ups.com...
Where's the chassis




Squire..

So far this is all mental gymnastics.

Why not do a prototype to prove and
debug the design, run it for several weeks to work out glitches, and
do one or two more test prototypes to finalize the design? This
will give you some idea on labor and material costs, and how much
time is needed to acquire parts... assemble... align and test.. etc.

I think at that point you'd have a better feel for what you are proposing.
One thing to think about: why not also offer a kit version? If you do
a magazine construction article, say in Electric Radio, that would
give you a "free" ad for the kit of materials, and some exposure.

Pete




Michael Black November 24th 05 03:00 PM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Bill ) writes:

Xtal filter



$1 each, $5 total, see recent post


Ask for 400 of all of the above and see how quick those 'surplus'
sources go dark.


And of course, it's all interrelated.

If one doesn't buy a lot of stock to begin with, then they have to scramble
later to get suitable parts, and in the case of the mechanical parts,
that may mean reworking the chassis. Which means if a large stock isn't
bought in advance, then the chassis work can't be done in bulk, because
that might mean the prepunched and drilled chassis have to be scrapped.

And if production has to stop while new sources are discovered, that
may cause significant problems. That's why there's all those second
sources for semiconductors; if a manufacturer can't count on being
able to get those ICs on a continuous basis, they won't use the part.

Michael VE2BVW


Dave Edwards November 24th 05 03:06 PM

fresh boatanchors, anyone?
 
Things have changed since the 'old' days.
You could perhaps sell a 2NT-like transmitter for about 500 bucks and make
little
profit, but not sure how big the crowd at the check out line would be.
Sounds nice though...but I think those days are gone. Unless you come up
with a cake pan thing such as had been done.
Or, take a look at doc bottleheads site at...
http://www.bottlehead.com/
No reason you couldn't take some tips from him, and make something with a
wood box, and a sheet of metal. Hit 'products' , then scroll to the right.
Some pretty nice shots, eh??

.....Dave


wrote in message
oups.com...
All,

I've occasionally seen homebrew tube transceivers on Ebay that range
from really good to too gnarly looking to seem safe. I am thinking of
creating a line of clean-looking, attractive, rugged tube equipment for
casual or missionary use with a reasonable price/output performance
that is easy to repair and adjust, based on schematics and design
principles that have gone into the public domain.

Would there be an audience? Comments?

The Eternal Squire





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