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  #21   Report Post  
Old June 15th 04, 05:06 PM
R J Carpenter
 
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"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...

I was talking about listinening in Monterrey Park, right in the main lobe.


My maps show Monterey Park to be off to the north of the KTNQ peak. I'd
guess down to the half-power point on the pattern, or lower. Pattern peak
direction abt 245 deg, direction to Monterey Park abt 290 deg. In any case,
30kHz spacing shouldn't be a severe test.




  #22   Report Post  
Old June 15th 04, 10:49 PM
David Eduardo
 
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"R J Carpenter" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...

I was talking about listinening in Monterrey Park, right in the main

lobe.

My maps show Monterey Park to be off to the north of the KTNQ peak.


Monterrey Park is right in the major lobe on the KTNQ pattern, about 8 miles
W by NW of the Industry site; the ERP there is in the vicinity of 100 to 125
kw, depending on where in Monterrey Park you are. It may be less than
towards Huntington Park, but far more than a non-DA 50 kw operation.

I'd
guess down to the half-power point on the pattern, or lower. Pattern peak
direction abt 245 deg, direction to Monterey Park abt 290 deg. In any

case,
30kHz spacing shouldn't be a severe test.


With the IE station about 45 miles away, I'd say it is a decent test. In
fact, 1050 in that area is usually a mix of XED and the IE station.


  #23   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 04:17 PM
WBRW
 
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How is AM stereo doing in the US?

Just about dead. Few receivers available except for some OEM car
radios, fewer and fewer stations broadcasting it.


But there are still more than 10 times as many AM Stereo stations as
there are AM stations using IBOC. And as for "fewer and fewer
stations broadcasting it", you could say that about IBOC -- within my
listening range here in NJ, there are at least half a dozen stations
which tested IBOC for a few weeks or months and then gave up on it.

For example, iBiquity's web site lists 860 WWDB in Philly and 930 WPAT
and 1480 WZRC in the NYC area as current IBOC signals, but all of
these stations haven't transmitted IBOC in almost a year now. This
kind of track record does not inspire much confidence in the future of
IBOC, at least on the AM band.

  #24   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 04:17 PM
Mark Howell
 
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On 15 Jun 2004 05:42:55 GMT, Alan Freed wrote:

There is also some evidence that IBOC interference can affect home
metro groundwave coverage of adjacent channel stations.


But not much. I can listen to the 1050 in the Riverside market within 10
miles of the KTNQ 50 kw IBOC site.


I have to laugh at that (nothing personal, DE). More of this
selective "acceptable interference" while NAB Eddie and his thugs
continue their audacious lies about third adjacent LPFM.

LPFM is to Eddie what Weapons Of Mass Destruction are to George W.

Carry on.


You have a point. As far as I'm concerned the NAB is correct about
LPFM, and dead wrong about IBOC, especially AM IBOC. But whichever
side of the debate you take, they're being inconsistent.

Mark Howell

  #25   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 04:17 PM
WBRW
 
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Daytime interference from WTOP's digital signal was found to be
"significant" at WARK's protected 0.50 mV/M contour, and "noticeable"
at its 0.75 mV/M contour.


Yet today, with noise and all, anything beyond the 5 mv/m contour is
pretty useless.


But what if you're in Nowheresville, Wyoming, and a few 5 mV/m AM
signals are all you've got? Tough luck, I guess?

The AM IBOC scheme is chronically myopic. Each station using it shall
only be concerned with their own primary local coverage area. But
what about when the skywaves kick in, and somebody else's "useless"
secondary coverage area suddenly lands smack-dab in the middle of your
primary coverage area? The middle of the band is a prime example.
Here in NJ at night, there's 1000 from Chicago, 1010 from NYC, 1020
from Pittsburgh, 1030 from Boston, 1040 from Des Moines, 1050 from
NYC, 1060 from Philly, 1080 from Hartford, 1090 from Baltimore, 1100
from Cleveland, 1110 from Charlotte, 1130 from NYC, 1140 from
Richmond, 1170 from Wheeling, 1180 from Rochester, 1190 from NYC
and/or Ft. Wayne, 1210 from Philly, and 1220 from Cleveland. Put IBOC
on all of these stations at night, and the mutual destruction would be
horrendous!

Some have suggested that allowance of nighttime IBOC, if any, should
be considered on the basis of whether two new AM broadcast signals, on
either side of the IBOC station's carrier and with the same power
level and signal pattern as the IBOC sidebands would have, would be
allowed according to the current FCC allocation scheme. In other
words, if WXYZ at 1000 kHz wanted to broadcast IBOC at night, it would
be judged on the basis of whether it would be legal to create two new
stations, 990 WXYZ-Lower and 1010 WXYZ-Upper, with the same power
level and signal pattern as the IBOC sidebands of WXYZ would have. In
most cases, the answer would be an emphatic NO.

For a 50,000 watt station, the total power used by the IBOC sidebands
is about 1500 watts. Split that in half, and that's about 750 watts
on each sideband. So, could 710 WOR fire up a new 750-watt station on
700 kHz and another new 750-watt station on 720 kHz at night?
Obviously, no -- the new 700 kHz "station" would violate the
protection that is afforded to 700 WLW, and likewise the new 720 kHz
"station" would walk all over 720 WGN. So, given the same parameters
of operation, how could WOR's IBOC sidebands (which can hardly be
called "In-Band, On-Channel") ever be allowed at night? iBiquity and
the NRSC think they should be... but what's going to happen in the
real world?

Mark my words -- if there's one thing that's going to finally kill off
AM radio entirely in North America, it's definitely going to be IBOC.



  #26   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 11:30 PM
Bob Haberkost
 
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"WBRW" wrote in message ...
Daytime interference from WTOP's digital signal was found to be
"significant" at WARK's protected 0.50 mV/M contour, and "noticeable"
at its 0.75 mV/M contour.


Mark my words -- if there's one thing that's going to finally kill off
AM radio entirely in North America, it's definitely going to be IBOC.


You're preaching to the choir (or at least the priest sitting in the back of the
sanctuary). Your analysis is dead-on, excepting that the Canadians determined long
ago that AM was dying, and more recently, that FM should follow it into the grave as
soon as it's reasonably possible. The U-S's actions will only expedite the patient's
demise.

Living in Pittsburgh, and as you mention KDKA (I used to work for them, at that), I
can tell you that there were some winter mornings where WBZ's sidebands would blow
the doors off of even the metro-grade signal....I hate to think what's going to
happen when/if WBZ turns IBOC on at night. Then again, I don't really care. I gave
up AM pretty much when the noise floor went to -10 on most channels.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There must always be the appearance of lawfulness....especially when the law's being
broken.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For direct replies, take out the contents between the hyphens. -Really!-


  #27   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 11:30 PM
David Eduardo
 
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"WBRW" wrote in message
...
How is AM stereo doing in the US?


Just about dead. Few receivers available except for some OEM car
radios, fewer and fewer stations broadcasting it.


But there are still more than 10 times as many AM Stereo stations as
there are AM stations using IBOC.


Let's say there are turly 200 AM stereo stations left... you are saying
there are fewer than 20 AM IBOC staitons.

Just the company I am with has 5, and there are already about 50 on the air
and another roughly 200 ordered and in construction.

Since IBOC does not coexist with AM stereo, it's over. The IBOC stations are
in major markets, and the AM stereos are generally X-band or oddball
stations with a penchant for suffering.

And as for "fewer and fewer
stations broadcasting it", you could say that about IBOC -- within my
listening range here in NJ, there are at least half a dozen stations
which tested IBOC for a few weeks or months and then gave up on it.


And which would they be? I don't know of that many in the whole country, and
the few that there are had problems with thier antenna system, not with IBOC
per se.


For example, iBiquity's web site lists 860 WWDB in Philly and 930 WPAT
and 1480 WZRC in the NYC area as current IBOC signals, but all of
these stations haven't transmitted IBOC in almost a year now. This
kind of track record does not inspire much confidence in the future of
IBOC, at least on the AM band.


The two NY stations have horrible DA systems, neither being optimized for
low-Q and bandwidth. And both are ethnic, not candidates for effective use
of IBOC when brokers bring thier programs on home made cassettes or CDs.



  #28   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 11:30 PM
David Eduardo
 
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"WBRW" wrote in message
...
Daytime interference from WTOP's digital signal was found to be
"significant" at WARK's protected 0.50 mV/M contour, and "noticeable"
at its 0.75 mV/M contour.


Yet today, with noise and all, anything beyond the 5 mv/m contour is
pretty useless.


But what if you're in Nowheresville, Wyoming, and a few 5 mV/m AM
signals are all you've got? Tough luck, I guess?


Yep. Skywave AM is essentially dead. I have driven at night across Wyoming,
from the NW down to the SE. There are FM signals everywhere. In the daytime,
many areas have no AM signals, while you can get a minimum of several FMs.

FM, especially after 80-90, has given nearly every part of the country
multiple FM signals, including areas where there was no day AM coverage.

Radio is essentially a local, single market medium. It is definitely treated
that way by advertisers.


  #29   Report Post  
Old June 17th 04, 04:08 AM
WBRW
 
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Just the company I am with has 5, and there are already about 50 on the air
and another roughly 200 ordered and in construction.


Don't make the mistake of equating the number of stations which have
ordered or installed IBOC equipment with the number of stations which
are actually _using_ IBOC. AM stations which have abandoned use of
IBOC (even if they may still have the equipment installed) include
WLW, WKDL, WSB, WWDB, KIXI, WPAT, WWJ, KABL, WZRC, and WTOP. As of
March, the grand total number of AM stations actually transmitting an
IBOC signal was around 20. Perhaps there are a few more today, but I
haven't heard of AM IBOC use growing by leaps and bounds in the past
few months.

Also, KNX, WMTR, WWTR, and WCTC may have filed a Digital Notification
with the FCC, but as of yet, none of these are actually transmitting
IBOC -- in fact, WCTC is still proudly broadcasting in AM Stereo, and
in a recent conversation with their Program Director in which I
discussed AM Stereo, he did not mention IBOC at all. I think Greater
Media has notified ALL of their stations (AM and FM) as IBOC with the
FCC, regardless if each station has any plans to actually install and
use it or not.

The two NY stations have horrible DA systems, neither being optimized for
low-Q and bandwidth.


Excuses, excuses. MOST stations in the country are "sub-optimal" and
are likely to have many of these same flaws which will seriously
inhibit their success with IBOC, or even make it impossible. (Even
WOR says "our upper sideband does not exist north of Paramus, NJ" --
how's that for a lousy DA?) So if/when IBOC is mandated, what will
happen to these stations? Rather than spend $100,000+ on a complete
overhaul, I bet many would just go off the air -- which is both good
and bad. Good, because it would finally "clean up" the AM band and
restore useable nighttime coverage area on Class B and C signals.
Bad, because just as many "good" stations (in terms of programming,
ratings, and listenership) will be forced off the air as "bad"
stations, and those that are left will be forced to use IBOC -- even
though the "de-cluttering" of the band would once again make hi-fi
analog AM a reality.

  #30   Report Post  
Old June 18th 04, 05:56 AM
Mark Roberts
 
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Mark Howell had written:
| On 15 Jun 2004 05:42:55 GMT, Alan Freed wrote:
|
| There is also some evidence that IBOC interference can affect home
| metro groundwave coverage of adjacent channel stations.
|
| But not much. I can listen to the 1050 in the Riverside market within 10
| miles of the KTNQ 50 kw IBOC site.
|
| I have to laugh at that (nothing personal, DE). More of this
| selective "acceptable interference" while NAB Eddie and his thugs
| continue their audacious lies about third adjacent LPFM.
|
| LPFM is to Eddie what Weapons Of Mass Destruction are to George W.
|
| Carry on.
|
| You have a point. As far as I'm concerned the NAB is correct about
| LPFM, and dead wrong about IBOC, especially AM IBOC. But whichever
| side of the debate you take, they're being inconsistent.
|
They're being inconsistent from a technical and engineering point of
view. From a protectionist point of view, they're being quite
consistent. It's an "I got mine and I'm going to keep it" stance,
pure and simple.

--
Mark Roberts |"I've posted this so many times I ought to have a
Oakland, Cal.| keyboard macro...."
NO HTML MAIL | -- Scott Fybush, on a radio-info message board



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