VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
 

"Frank Gilliland" wrote...

And BTW, since your non-linear linear has been discontinued, why
won't you post the schematic?

In case some small company, in a small European country, are
willing to pay for his discarded designs.
It worked for Fiat.


Regards,
Peter.
http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/

VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
 

"Vinnie S." wrote...

It's not for me, but I am showing interest, and you're blowing me off.

This group has shown much hostility towards Brian, and I was about to
Email one of the regulars to ask what the history is. Because, so far,
I had not seen the reason for it apart from the usual p1ss1ng
contests and opposing groups within rrcb.

However, Brian himself appears to have given what could be a real
good reason to avoid his products... his apparent disregard for
the customer's needs or desires.
That, for me, raises concerns about whether he would provide
good customer care or simply blow the customer off once he
has their money.

The funny thing is, I don't have the theory expertise that you,
James, or Frank have.

Most CBers do not have technical expertise, it is not a
requirement. In fact, CB is for those without such expertise.
That is why, as a consumer, you need to be aware. Many companies
have used this lack of knowledge against their customers, selling
them total crap.

But I am one of the few people that uses CB, that can open the
radio up and read schemtics, and follow directions for mods.

I don't know about "few". Over the years, I have seen a
large amount of fekked up equipment, due to people who are
willing to go inside their radio... and those willing to do
other people's radios the same way.
One person I knew would do this with every radio he had, he
was famous for it. Every time he got a radio, he would go
inside and feck it up. He would then sell it cheap t a tech,
and buy another.
The tech would put everything right and make a killing
on the sale.

As far as the battery problem, there are a couple options. One
is to put 12VDC terminals on it, or simply use a 12V battery.
Hell, the 9V battery in my mike lasts for years.

Over the years, I have seen many battery operated CB
accessories and many with wires for 12v supply.
Power microphones, base microphones, echo boxes, speech
processors, VOX, preamps, power amps, etc.

None of the manufacturers had a problem with external
units, or the selling of them.


Second question is, before I hack into my radio, how much better
is this than my Turner +3B with Speech Compression?

Do they still make this, to the same old specifications, or is
it an old one still in use?

This is from an old catalog, really old...
Model +3B
Frequency range: 300-3500Hz
Impedance: 1K Ohm
Output level: -42dB adjustable
Battery type: 7v Turner / Mallory.

That is all it gives, and it is not clear whether that
"-42dB" is dBm and whether that is maximum, minimum
or some middle figure.

There is another processor in this catalog, anyone remember
the MC902 processor? Remember the days of "Solid-State"
equipment?
Loads of switches, knobs, and even a meter on this one.

Does Brian give out full spec on his processor?


Regards,
Peter.
http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/

VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
 

"Vinnie S." wrote...
On 07 Jul 2007 03:16:15 GMT, Steveo wrote:

You have one, Enzo?

No. But I would give it a shot, just for the purpose of experimenting.

Here comes RRCB customer No 3.

This is becoming a sales boom.


Regards,
Peter.
http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/

VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
 

"Telstar Electronics" wrote...

There are certainly pros & cons with either approach. One big problem
in the external design is the need for a battery. Our feeling was that
things with batteries can be problematic... and require additional
monitoring to make sure the unit is functioning on a daily basis. This
increased "battery vigilance" was one of the main reasons the internal
design was chosen. Another issue is definately the radio's internal
limiter. On most radios... this is factory set at around 85% possible
modulation. If you want to take full advantage of the VoiceMax 100%
constant modulation capability... the radios limiter needs to be
adjusted/disabled.

Brian,

Apart from the question raised over the typical radio settings,
was the idea of the processor not to reduce the dynamic
range of the audio, rather than simply increase the
maximum modulation?

You appear to be suggesting that this processor works by
the person turning their radio up.

The VoiceMax has built in limiting... so a
redundant system is not needed.

Unless, at some time, someone decides to remove the
processor? Maybe they don't like it, maybe they want a
standard radio, who knows - but I have heard of many
non-standard boards being removed for various reasons.
This may not be the person who fitted it, so they will be
totally unaware of the removal of important cricuits
within the radio.
Then they have a radio with no limiting.

It sounds like you have no plans to
open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you.

This is where I start to get some serious concerns...
1. Do you really want to supply the customer, or simply
make up your own ideas and con people into buying them?
2. If I had issues with a product I got from you, why should
I expect anything more than Vinnie got... a big "blow off"?

The suggestion that you would not sell your product to
Frank also suggests a couple of things...
1. You have something to hide, something that Frank could find.
2. You have a limited customer base, and intend to keep it that
way - no selling through dealers, so you can control who is
allowed to buy one.

You should know very well that I have no issues with you
personally, but these are the impressions I am getting. I
also doubt if you impressed Vinnie, a potential customer. How
many more will question your commitment to the customer?

Frank can stand there throwing punches all day, he is not
the one stood in quicksand.


Regards,
Peter.
http://www.citizensband.radiouk.com/

VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
 

Apart from the question raised over the typical radio settings,
was the idea of the processor not to reduce the dynamic
range of the audio, rather than simply increase the
maximum modulation?

No, VoiceMax greatly compresses the audio.


You appear to be suggesting that this processor works by
the person turning their radio up.

What I'm saying is that to get the maximum benefit from VoiceMax...
one must have a radio that is capable of 100% modulation... before the
module is installed. If you have such a radio... then there is nothing
to be done but the installation. The redundant limiters (radio &
VoiceMax) will be transparent to the user.


The VoiceMax has built in limiting... so a
redundant system is not needed.

Unless, at some time, someone decides to remove the
processor? Maybe they don't like it, maybe they want a
standard radio, who knows - but I have heard of many
non-standard boards being removed for various reasons.
This may not be the person who fitted it, so they will be
totally unaware of the removal of important cricuits
within the radio.
Then they have a radio with no limiting.

True. If the radio's limiter is adjusted or disabled... one would have
to restore it to its original setting if the VoiceMax module is
removed. This is normally a very simple procedure as you are most
likely aware of.


It sounds like you have no plans to
open your radio... so VoiceMax is not for you.

This is where I start to get some serious concerns...
1. Do you really want to supply the customer, or simply
make up your own ideas and con people into buying them?

Don't understand this...

2. If I had issues with a product I got from you, why should
I expect anything more than Vinnie got... a big "blow off"?

I didn't blow-off anyone. I merely told Vinnie that if he didn't have
the expertise necessary to install the unit... and didn't want anyone
else opening his radio... that VoiceMax wasn't for him. What's wrong
with that?


The suggestion that you would not sell your product to
Frank also suggests a couple of things...
1. You have something to hide, something that Frank could find.
2. You have a limited customer base, and intend to keep it that
way - no selling through dealers, so you can control who is
allowed to buy one.

Frank has been a constant irritant here for years... yes years. He is
a frustrated electronic technician in California that doesn't like
anyone challenging any statement he makes. As you see he very abusive/
abrasive. I certainly don't need... or want customers like that.

You're right... I will be distributing this device at first. After the
product catches on... I hope to work with some distribution channels.


You should know very well that I have no issues with you
personally, but these are the impressions I am getting. I
also doubt if you impressed Vinnie, a potential customer. How
many more will question your commitment to the customer?

I'm not here to impress anyone. I also don't want to sell this device
to anyone that has reservations about the performance. Most of these
guys... Frank, Steveo, and some others are not potential customers...
they are spoilers. That is... and has been their mission all along.
They are good in a way because they always play the "devils advocate"
and give me an opportunity to explain my device to others out there
that are interested... and smart enough to comprehend. Those people
are... and continue to be my customers.

VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
 

Brian,

I apologize for starting a ****ing contest, as that was not my intention. I was
interested in testing it for you, but would have rather had an external box type
unit. I did not mean for this thread to go out of control.

Vinnie S.

VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
 

Brian,
I apologize for starting a ****ing contest, as that was not my intention. I was
interested in testing it for you, but would have rather had an external box type
unit. I did not mean for this thread to go out of control.
Vinnie S.

Hey... no apology necessary. This thread is no more out of control
than usual.
Even conversing with Frank beats seeing all the rest of that crap out
here like ipunce this & morky that... whatever that's all means... lol
Even if people don't agree... at least they're thinking. That's more
than what usually goes on here.

VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
 

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:08:42 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote in
. com:

On Jul 10, 12:28 pm, Frank Gilliland
wrote:
This 85% is by no means the average modulation... which is really
around 40% with voice signals.

It varies as much as people have different voices and speaking styles,
but it is generally accepted to be in the 20 to 25% range (peak to
average ratio from 5:1 to 4:1).

Since you have stopped your personal attack (for now), I will
certainly respond to your comments.
You are correct... I said "around 40%". You say 20-25%.
Either way... the number is far from the optimum 100% value the
VoiceMax can deliver.


See below.


The VoiceMax brings the average
modulation to 100%! That means that every voice... high or low... soft
or loud... will modulate the radio at a constant 100%.

Impossible, and you prove it yourself with your implementation of a
noise gate. You can push 40 to 50% with heavy filtering, and that's
about the best you can do, but it still causes moderate distortion.

Very possible... and the distortion is less than 1% THD.


Not possible. Older power amps were lucky to get as low as 1%
distortion -without- compression. Compression, by any other name, -IS-
distortion, whether it's by clipping or by AGC. You can filter out
some of the harmonics but the distortion remains -- and is evident by
a change in the output as you readily admit. As far as harmonics are
concerned, if you have a brick-wall filter at 3kHz you still pass
harmonics generated from fundamentals below 1.5kHz, which includes
most of the intelligible speech.

(Anyone who wants a primer in the audio spectrum should find a .wav
file of a standard 1kHz tone and try to duplicate it with their own
voice. Unless you are Mariah Carey, good luck!)

So even if you -think- you have filtered out 99% of the harmonics
generated by compression, think again. Only a distortion analyzer will
tell you how much THD remains.


Even if your "constant 100%" modulation applies only to unmuted voice,
it would be completely unintelligible. You can pick up almost any book
on radio communications and it will say the same thing.

You are correct that the 100% average applies to the unmuted signal...
Why would we be talking about anything else?
The audio signal is perfectly clear and has less than 1% THD.


Can't happen. If your peak-to-average 1:1 (which is required for 100%
modulation) then all ...=-ALL-=... the audio peaks are at the maximum.
With a 3kHz spectral limit, this would require an AGC response of less
than 20 uS, assuming you want the output to at least vaguely resemble
the input (that's 1/6000 with a very generous 10% response delay). The
chip you selected simply doesn't work that fast. You would need an AGC
amp with a slew rate at -least- 100 times faster than what you have.

Now assuming you have such a chip, and you did get 1:1 peak-to-average
voice power while muting everything else, your output would sound much
like dried ****. It's not hard to duplicate; just run a 10Vp-p audio
signal through a couple 1N34A's and filter at 3kHz. It will achieve
100% average modulation all the time, but it sounds like crap and is
completely unintelligible. And it ain't "less than 1% THD" -- the DA
says it's closer to 80% -after- the 3kHz filter.

If your processor has "perfectly clear" audio while at maximum
compression then I can guarantee you that it -isn't- running anywhere
close to 100% average modulation. 40% at best. And that's no better
than the AGC already built into the radio. On the other hand, if you
built what I already told you was a 'constant volume amplifier' (that
you confused with a 'voltage controlled amplifier') then your average
modulation is going to be closer to 25%.

Either way, your performance claims are contradictory and unrealistic
(i.e, impossible). At best they show ignorance of the principles used;
at worst, they show deception in marketing.

VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
 

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:00:41 -0700, Telstar Electronics
wrote in
. com:

Assuming you set your processor's limiter to 100%, you still need
to set the output level to the radio so it doesn't overmodulate. Even
just 101% modulation means clipping; pump that with 100% average noise
and you have the potential for some serious bleedover. And there's no
way for the average user to determine the precise point at which his
radio is at 100% modulation. Radios are set at the factory for 95% to
98% modulation to allow for slight variations in tolerance that happen
during normal operation; for you to claim that your processor limits
modulation to 100% all of the time is not only absurd, it's impossible
because of the tolerance limitations of the radio.

I think this is the last of your comments I didn't have time to
respond to before. You are certainly correct that you need to set the
radio so it doesn't overmodulate. In the VoiceMax installation
instructions it says that for a precise modulation level, you should
use a scope. While it's true there's no perfect way to do this without
a scope... you should be able to get reasonably close by having an
assistant monitor your transmission during the adjustment. This is
also covered in the VoiceMax installation instructions.


Such a procedure is pointless unless the assistant is monitoring on
the second and third harmonics.


Even levels up
to 110% modulation will not cause excessive bleedover.


But they will cause harmonics, especially on the television.


The people you
hear on the air bleeding 20+ channels are usally running a combination
of excessive power with perhaps upward of 130% modulation. That is a
deadly splattering condition all right.


Adjacent channel bleedover is caused by audio harmonic distortion
bypassing the 3kHz filter. RF Amplifiers only amplify the bleedover.
Modulation level is not a factor because overmodulation only creates
RF harmonics (e.g, being heard on 54MHz, 81MHz, etc.), which is also
caused by non-linear linears.


However, I don't agree with your statement that factory radios are set
to 95-98% possible modulation. There is no way there is enough margin
here to assure they will not exceed the 100%. That's why they they
normally set to around 85%. Both my Cobra radios were in that
vicinity. I have never put a factory radio on the scope and seen more
than 90%!


I have a shelf filled with CB manuals, both Sams and factory manuals.
Except for some of the old tube-type radios, the modulation adjustment
for all of them is around 95 to 98% -- I didn't pull those numbers out
of a hat. If you've never seen more than 90% then either your scope is
too slow or you need to learn how to use it properly. And that's why
scopes are not recommended for modulation alignment, which is usually
done with an RF voltmeter or demod probe, and an audio source with a
fixed amplitude and frequency (a sig-gen, not someone yelling AAAUUDIO
into the mic). You should really read some of these manuals -- some of
them also describe how to adjust the mic audio AGC circuits....

VoiceMax is Coming July 22nd... Are You Ready to be Heard?
 

On Jul 10, 7:16 pm, Frank Gilliland
wrote:
Such a procedure is pointless unless the assistant is monitoring on
the second and third harmonics.

Frank lives in a black & white world. The real world is gray Frank...
and isn't perfect. I agree that in a perfect world... one would use a
scope to get to the target 100% modulation. In the real gray world...
not everyone has a scope.. and therefore would have to resort to the
next best method... the listening assistant. After all you always talk
about the "empirical" method being so good... are you getting away
from that thinking now?.. lol
www.telstar-electronics.com