As we all know under Idea conductions a 1/4 wave whip will out do any
loaded antenna.
But in the real world a loaded antenna ( shortened ) mounted in the center
of the roof will work much better in ALL directions than a 1/4 wave whip
mounted on the bumper, or the rear of the mobile. If the long whip was
mounted on the left back side, the best direction will be to the right
front, whereas a center mounted antenna on the roof, even with its somewhat
more loss will work better in all directions, as the mobile would not have
to be turned like a beam. So the point is I prefer
a good trunk mounted, or a center mounted antenna over the 1/4 whip.

Been there done that.

BuckEye wrote:

As we all know under Idea conductions a 1/4 wave whip will out do any
loaded antenna.


Nope, sorry, that just isn't true. If you would have said
that
a full length 1/4 wave antenna will out perform a shortened
1/4
wave antenna, you'd have been right. But if the full length
and
shortened antennas are of different 'electrical' lengths,
then all
bets are off.
I do agree with the rest of your post. A shortened
antenna is
much more -practical- to use and a lot easier to live with...
'Doc

I agree to all of the above except a 1/4 wave is a 1/4 no matter what. A so
called loaded 1/4 is a loaded antenna not called a 1/4 anymore. Once a
antenna has been shortened by any means, shorter than the physical 1/4 wave
antenna ( 1/4 wave including the velocity factor ), top hats, loading coil,
or ant other ways it is not clamed to be called a 1/4 wave anymore.
I did say 1/4 whip on the post, as most everybody should have known it to
be the 108" antenna.



"'Doc" wrote in message ...


BuckEye wrote:

As we all know under Idea conductions a 1/4 wave whip will out do any
loaded antenna.


Nope, sorry, that just isn't true. If you would have said
that
a full length 1/4 wave antenna will out perform a shortened
1/4
wave antenna, you'd have been right. But if the full length
and
shortened antennas are of different 'electrical' lengths,
then all
bets are off.
I do agree with the rest of your post. A shortened
antenna is
much more -practical- to use and a lot easier to live with...
'Doc

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:10:42 GMT, "BuckEye" wrote:

I agree to all of the above except a 1/4 wave is a 1/4 no matter what. A so
called loaded 1/4 is a loaded antenna not called a 1/4 anymore. Once a
antenna has been shortened by any means, shorter than the physical 1/4 wave
antenna ( 1/4 wave including the velocity factor ), top hats, loading coil,
or ant other ways it is not clamed to be called a 1/4 wave anymore.
I did say 1/4 whip on the post, as most everybody should have known it to
be the 108" antenna.


I don't know where Doc is heading for with his statement, but a
shortened antenna ( like the Xterminator) is 1/4 wave "electrically"

Velocity factor isn't a factor when you determine antenna length,
except certain antennas that are made from transmission line.

"Lancer" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:10:42 GMT, "BuckEye" wrote:

I agree to all of the above except a 1/4 wave is a 1/4 no matter what. A
so
called loaded 1/4 is a loaded antenna not called a 1/4 anymore. Once a
antenna has been shortened by any means, shorter than the physical 1/4
wave
antenna ( 1/4 wave including the velocity factor ), top hats, loading
coil,
or ant other ways it is not clamed to be called a 1/4 wave anymore.
I did say 1/4 whip on the post, as most everybody should have known it
to
be the 108" antenna.


I don't know where Doc is heading for with his statement, but a
shortened antenna ( like the Xterminator) is 1/4 wave "electrically"

Velocity factor isn't a factor when you determine antenna length,
except certain antennas that are made from transmission line.

Maby you can explain how a antenna is 1/4 so called " electrically 1/4 " if
it is not a 1/4 wave like a 108" whip.
If it has a coil in it it, and shorter than the 1/4 it is a loaded antenna
NOT a electrically 1/4 wave equivelement .
If that was the case then a very loaded antenna that was 12" tall NOT 8'
could also be called a 1/4 wave "electrically"
What makes then a antenna 1/4 wave "electrically", because it matches the
50 coax?


Velocity factor IS importment when cutting a element to the proper
length.
Typically a antenna element can range from .91 to .99 of the true open space
length.

Here is a add from a supplier of the antenna.

SP-1000

HIGH PERFORMANCE TWIN 1/8" SQUARE COPPER WIRE COIL,
FREQUENCY COVERAGE 26-31MHz,
"SWR LESS THAN 1.5:1 1.5MHz SPREAD"
STANDARD 3/8" x 24 THREAD
OVERALL LENGTH 54" ( WHAT not a 1/4 wave only half the length )
Dam that makes it 1/8 wavelength in the physical length.
No where does it say 1/4 wave equivelement. The only thing that could be
called a 1/4 wave antenna is a is a 1/4 wave antenna.
Thats just another marketing tool to cause more confusion in the antenna
world.

Another add.

A3000, 59 inch long helically loaded 1/4 wave, wide band 26 to 29 Mhz.
Just another trick, What makes this antenna any different from other
antennas that are loaded to shorten them. Some of the others do not clam to
be a loaded 1/4 wave. Thats BS.
Thats about as dum as selling a equivelement shortened 12" ruller that
comes only 7' long.
Owell some believe it.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 02:52:33 GMT, "BuckEye" wrote:


"Lancer" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:10:42 GMT, "BuckEye" wrote:

I agree to all of the above except a 1/4 wave is a 1/4 no matter what. A
so
called loaded 1/4 is a loaded antenna not called a 1/4 anymore. Once a
antenna has been shortened by any means, shorter than the physical 1/4
wave
antenna ( 1/4 wave including the velocity factor ), top hats, loading
coil,
or ant other ways it is not clamed to be called a 1/4 wave anymore.
I did say 1/4 whip on the post, as most everybody should have known it
to
be the 108" antenna.


I don't know where Doc is heading for with his statement, but a
shortened antenna ( like the Xterminator) is 1/4 wave "electrically"

Velocity factor isn't a factor when you determine antenna length,
except certain antennas that are made from transmission line.

Maby you can explain how a antenna is 1/4 so called " electrically 1/4 " if
it is not a 1/4 wave like a 108" whip.
If it has a coil in it it, and shorter than the 1/4 it is a loaded antenna
NOT a electrically 1/4 wave equivelement .
If that was the case then a very loaded antenna that was 12" tall NOT 8'
could also be called a 1/4 wave "electrically"
What makes then a antenna 1/4 wave "electrically", because it matches the
50 coax?

A coil in a short antenna cancels out the capacitive reactance making
the antenna resistive at the operating frequency. The coil makes it
"electrically" a 1/4 wavelength. More than likely it won't be 50
ohms, usually quite less, unless some kind of matching is used at the
base.



Velocity factor IS importment when cutting a element to the proper
length.
Typically a antenna element can range from .91 to .99 of the true open space
length.


The number (.91 to .99) are correct for the difference between an
antenna in free space and erected near earth. Its not from the
velocity factor of the antenna.
Its because the antenna is close to the earth and other
conductive objects (tree, buildings and power lines) which present
stray capacitance that tunes the antenna lower in frequency than a
free space antenna. Its called "end effect" and is more prevelant
the closer an antenna is other objects.

"Lancer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 02:52:33 GMT, "BuckEye" wrote:


"Lancer" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:10:42 GMT, "BuckEye" wrote:

I agree to all of the above except a 1/4 wave is a 1/4 no matter what.
A
so
called loaded 1/4 is a loaded antenna not called a 1/4 anymore. Once a
antenna has been shortened by any means, shorter than the physical 1/4
wave
antenna ( 1/4 wave including the velocity factor ), top hats, loading
coil,
or ant other ways it is not clamed to be called a 1/4 wave anymore.
I did say 1/4 whip on the post, as most everybody should have known
it
to
be the 108" antenna.


I don't know where Doc is heading for with his statement, but a
shortened antenna ( like the Xterminator) is 1/4 wave "electrically"

Velocity factor isn't a factor when you determine antenna length,
except certain antennas that are made from transmission line.

Maby you can explain how a antenna is 1/4 so called " electrically 1/4 "
if
it is not a 1/4 wave like a 108" whip.
If it has a coil in it it, and shorter than the 1/4 it is a loaded
antenna
NOT a electrically 1/4 wave equivelement .
If that was the case then a very loaded antenna that was 12" tall NOT 8'
could also be called a 1/4 wave "electrically"
What makes then a antenna 1/4 wave "electrically", because it matches
the
50 coax?

A coil in a short antenna cancels out the capacitive reactance making
the antenna resistive at the operating frequency OK TRUE . The
coil makes it
"electrically" a 1/4 wavelength
Why does the coil make it that way.
Nowhere in any theory does it state that. Its just another ways to match the
coax to free air. That's all the antenna does.

Why do you keep trying to say its "electrically" a 1/4 wavelength. Just
because it
can be loaded with a matching device ? Shows a good match.
This could be taken to the extreme and if the antenna was reduced to only
one inch
in length, tuned and matched would it be electrically" a 1/4 wavelength .
No its just a resonate circuit with no relation to a
wavelength. In fact a conductor does not have to be any wavelength to
radiate at all.
When matched any length of wire will emit all the power applied to it.

More than likely it won't be 50
(We all know thats true)
ohms, usually quite less, unless some kind of matching is used at the
base.



Velocity factor IS importment when cutting a element to the proper
length.
Typically a antenna element can range from .91 to .99 of the true open
space
length.


The number (.91 to .99) are correct for the difference between an
antenna in free space and erected near earth. Its not from the
velocity factor of the antenna.
Its because the antenna is close to the earth and other
conductive objects (tree, buildings and power lines) which present
stray capacitance that tunes the antenna lower in frequency than a
free space antenna. Its called "end effect" and is more prevelant
the closer an antenna is other objects.

If so how do you explain in some long wire antennas its even 1.05 times
longer than the freespace.

Lancerm
Who said anything about velocity factor?
'Doc