"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 May 2004 02:07:50 GMT, "Landshark"
Many people have said many things. I take what I read with a grain of
salt. A lot of people take advantage of the relative anonymity of the
internet to behave in ways that they would never consider
face-to-face. Unless you fully understand and are willing to work
within that framework, and deal with people accordingly, you may fall
victim to trolls.


Agreed, but when you continually announce that you have nothing
to do with CB, then you must be taken at you're word. As for
saying things face-to-face, you'll be right in most cases.


I was using that as an analogy. The biggest rule to follow if you are
going to freeband is to tread lightly and keep a low profile. The more
attention you attract, the more likely it will be that you will cross
paths with the FCC at some point. Most of the freeband frequencies are
vacant (The vacant lot), and if the "kids" want to play there, not too
many people will mind, as long as they aren't making too much noise
(RFI), or they don't wander onto the neighbor's yard (10 meters).

Agreed, in most any cases.


So what you are saying, in essence, is that people are well aware of
the rules. If they choose to break them they will do so at their own
risk.

Yes

Efforts to enforce the rules are a waste of time, since it will
not stem the tide of irresponsible behavior. Is that about right?

No. It is the job of the duly appointed Officer (Sheriff, constable,
Highway Patrolman, Trooper) to enforce the laws, not me.

Do you think that this may be a part of the problem with society these
days?

No. I believe the problems lays in the up bring and teachings
from Family & Friends in most cases.

If no one is willing to support the laws, and instead place that
job fully on the shoulders of LEO, is it any surprise that there are
so many people willing to ignore those same laws?

I think you should support the job that Law enforcement is doing,
but that does not mean chasing down speeders and people that do
break minor laws.


There would be no reason for me to go chasing after a speeder
and pull along side of him and start to berate him on how
he was speeding. It would just **** him off and maybe create
an even worse situation, road rage.

Maybe so, but if people routinely did this, there would be a lot less
people speeding, and the cops would have an easier job.

Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.



Do we, as American citizens, not have a responsibility to stand up for
what is right? Do we have a responsibility to instill the need to be
more law abiding?

Yes, but as for "enforcement" of most laws, that is the responsibility of
the Police, not average Joe on the street.

What event(s) took place that made it seem more "cool" to be a law
breaking rebel, rather than someone who obeys the rules?

Don't know, again up bringing, but look at it this way, if
there were no traffic fines, cities, counties etc etc would
be broke.

When did social responsibility give way to social indifference?

Oh, mid 70's I would think.

It's no wonder when serial killers are caught, there will invariably
be those interviews with neighbors who can't understand why he was a
killer ("He was such a quiet guy"), and how he never gave any outward
signs. Maybe if people were more observant, they'd have seen the
signs.......

Food for thought.....

Serial killer? Most cases no, drug trafficking, yes, domestic abuse,
yes, a lot things yes, others you would never know.

Dave


Landshark


--
Real heroes are men who fall and fail
and are flawed, but win out in the end
because they've stayed true to their
ideals and beliefs and commitments.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:52:46 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:




So what you are saying, in essence, is that people are well aware of
the rules. If they choose to break them they will do so at their own
risk.

Yes

Efforts to enforce the rules are a waste of time, since it will
not stem the tide of irresponsible behavior. Is that about right?

No. It is the job of the duly appointed Officer (Sheriff, constable,
Highway Patrolman, Trooper) to enforce the laws, not me.

Right, but it's the responsibility of every citizen to apply the
social equivalent of peer pressure to those who refuse to "tow the
line". This form of intimidation was widely employed in days long
gone, but has largely been abandoned in this age of indifference.


Do you think that this may be a part of the problem with society these
days?

No. I believe the problems lays in the up bring and teachings
from Family & Friends in most cases.

I would agree, and add that upbringing doesn't end at age 18.


If no one is willing to support the laws, and instead place that
job fully on the shoulders of LEO, is it any surprise that there are
so many people willing to ignore those same laws?

I think you should support the job that Law enforcement is doing,
but that does not mean chasing down speeders and people that do
break minor laws.

People need to be made aware that "minor laws" are not always as
"minor" as they may think. Many people believed that crimes such as
cable TV theft of service were "minor" because what was being stolen
was not physically tangible. But when the lost revenue for the cable
companies were added to the picture, it's not such a "victimless"
crime.

Speeding, on the surface, does not seem to be a big deal either. But
consider what can happen when there is a traffic mishap. Speed lessens
reaction time, and increases the potential for damage and injury.

Most laws were not created to ruin people's fun. They were created to
protect society as a collective whole.


There would be no reason for me to go chasing after a speeder
and pull along side of him and start to berate him on how
he was speeding. It would just **** him off and maybe create
an even worse situation, road rage.

Maybe so, but if people routinely did this, there would be a lot less
people speeding, and the cops would have an easier job.

Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance" law.


Do we, as American citizens, not have a responsibility to stand up for
what is right? Do we have a responsibility to instill the need to be
more law abiding?

Yes, but as for "enforcement" of most laws, that is the responsibility of
the Police, not average Joe on the street.

The police are given the jurisdiction to make arrests and levy fines.
But we all share the responsibility to make it known that we will not
stand by and allow these things to go on. By doing nothing, you are
giving your passive condonation, which further re-enforced the
attitude that breaking the law is "ok".

Like in the case of illegal CB use, it may seem that the guys
advocating legal operation are grossly outnumbered, but to ignore it,
is giving your acceptance of it.



What event(s) took place that made it seem more "cool" to be a law
breaking rebel, rather than someone who obeys the rules?

Don't know, again up bringing, but look at it this way, if
there were no traffic fines, cities, counties etc etc would
be broke.

A capitalist solution to a social problem. Turn the problem into a
windfall. Maybe if the fines were raised sufficiently, people might be
less inclined to take the risk.


When did social responsibility give way to social indifference?

Oh, mid 70's I would think.

I would agree. I'm still waiting for the pendulum to swing back.


Dave
"Sandbagger"
http://home.ptd.net/~n3cvj

Dave Hall wrote:
Like in the case of illegal CB use, it may seem that the guys
advocating legal operation are grossly outnumbered, but to ignore it,
is giving your acceptance of it.

Hypocrite.

Dave Hall wrote:
Granted this turns a 800 watt peak amp into a 200 watt amp (Doesn't
sound so glamourous), but for my type of operating, this works the best.

--
I won't retire, but I might retread.

On 12 May 2004 19:10:22 GMT, Steveo
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:
Like in the case of illegal CB use, it may seem that the guys
advocating legal operation are grossly outnumbered, but to ignore it,
is giving your acceptance of it.

Hypocrite.

Dave Hall wrote:
Granted this turns a 800 watt peak amp into a 200 watt amp (Doesn't
sound so glamourous), but for my type of operating, this works the best.


It's never too late to reform.

I've readily admitted that I was one of the "bad boys" to some degree,
back in my younger and somewhat socially irresponsible days. I was a
product of the 60's and 70's, and it took a little time and maturity
to finally put things into their proper perspective.

I still enjoy talking about the technical aspects of radio, including
things which operationally are illegal on CB, but interesting from an
experimenter's standpoint.

And my statement still stands. If you believe in something, you need
to fight for it. Otherwise, you have no right to complain when things
are not the way you like them.


Dave
"Sandbagger"
http://home.ptd.net/~n3cvj

Dave Hall wrote:
Like in the case of illegal CB use, it may seem that the guys
advocating legal operation are grossly outnumbered, but to ignore it,
is giving your acceptance of it.

I never understand why people need to drive their amps with so much
power. With my amp in an out of box condition, 4 watts will push it to
500 watts carrier (In the high position), with little headroom left for
peak modulation (And it sounds fuzzy). Why would anyone need to drive it
with another amp?

Dave
"Sandbagger"


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----

--
I won't retire, but I might retread.

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:52:46 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:




So what you are saying, in essence, is that people are well aware of
the rules. If they choose to break them they will do so at their own
risk.

Yes

Efforts to enforce the rules are a waste of time, since it will
not stem the tide of irresponsible behavior. Is that about right?

No. It is the job of the duly appointed Officer (Sheriff, constable,
Highway Patrolman, Trooper) to enforce the laws, not me.

Right, but it's the responsibility of every citizen to apply the
social equivalent of peer pressure to those who refuse to "tow the
line". This form of intimidation was widely employed in days long
gone, but has largely been abandoned in this age of indifference.

Dave, peer pressure might work among friends, but complete strangers
couldn't give a rats ass.

Do you think that this may be a part of the problem with society these
days?

No. I believe the problems lays in the up bring and teachings
from Family & Friends in most cases.

I would agree, and add that upbringing doesn't end at age 18.


If no one is willing to support the laws, and instead place that
job fully on the shoulders of LEO, is it any surprise that there are
so many people willing to ignore those same laws?

I think you should support the job that Law enforcement is doing,
but that does not mean chasing down speeders and people that do
break minor laws.

People need to be made aware that "minor laws" are not always as
"minor" as they may think. Many people believed that crimes such as
cable TV theft of service were "minor" because what was being stolen
was not physically tangible. But when the lost revenue for the cable
companies were added to the picture, it's not such a "victimless"
crime.

Speeding, on the surface, does not seem to be a big deal either. But
consider what can happen when there is a traffic mishap. Speed lessens
reaction time, and increases the potential for damage and injury.

Most laws were not created to ruin people's fun. They were created to
protect society as a collective whole.


There would be no reason for me to go chasing after a speeder
and pull along side of him and start to berate him on how
he was speeding. It would just **** him off and maybe create
an even worse situation, road rage.

Maybe so, but if people routinely did this, there would be a lot less
people speeding, and the cops would have an easier job.

Sorry, I'll disagree. Each to their own opinion


Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

To get a ticket, an officer must see the offence happen,
just telling him that Jimmie was speeding won't do anything.
Maybe if we all lived in Mayberry RFD something might
happen, but not in this day & age.

As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance" law.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!


Do we, as American citizens, not have a responsibility to stand up for
what is right? Do we have a responsibility to instill the need to be
more law abiding?

Yes, but as for "enforcement" of most laws, that is the responsibility of
the Police, not average Joe on the street.

The police are given the jurisdiction to make arrests and levy fines.
But we all share the responsibility to make it known that we will not
stand by and allow these things to go on. By doing nothing, you are
giving your passive condonation, which further re-enforced the
attitude that breaking the law is "ok".

Here's where we part company Dave....... I AM NOT A
LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER! I will report it to
the local authorities, hope that they handle it accordingly,
that is the reason I pay taxes.


Like in the case of illegal CB use, it may seem that the guys
advocating legal operation are grossly outnumbered, but to ignore it,
is giving your acceptance of it.



What event(s) took place that made it seem more "cool" to be a law
breaking rebel, rather than someone who obeys the rules?

Don't know, again up bringing, but look at it this way, if
there were no traffic fines, cities, counties etc etc would
be broke.

A capitalist solution to a social problem. Turn the problem into a
windfall. Maybe if the fines were raised sufficiently, people might be
less inclined to take the risk.


When did social responsibility give way to social indifference?

Oh, mid 70's I would think.

I would agree. I'm still waiting for the pendulum to swing back.


Dave
"Sandbagger"


Landshark


--
Courage is what it takes to stand up
and speak; courage is also what it
takes to sit down and listen.

On Thu, 13 May 2004 03:43:39 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:52:46 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:




So what you are saying, in essence, is that people are well aware of
the rules. If they choose to break them they will do so at their own
risk.

Yes

Efforts to enforce the rules are a waste of time, since it will
not stem the tide of irresponsible behavior. Is that about right?

No. It is the job of the duly appointed Officer (Sheriff, constable,
Highway Patrolman, Trooper) to enforce the laws, not me.

Right, but it's the responsibility of every citizen to apply the
social equivalent of peer pressure to those who refuse to "tow the
line". This form of intimidation was widely employed in days long
gone, but has largely been abandoned in this age of indifference.

Dave, peer pressure might work among friends, but complete strangers
couldn't give a rats ass.


You'd be surprised at just how many people's habits are influenced by
the habits of other, complete strangers. Take a look at some of the
ridiculous fashion trends over the years, which have nonetheless
become popular, for the most obvious evidence of this peer influence.


People need to be made aware that "minor laws" are not always as
"minor" as they may think. Many people believed that crimes such as
cable TV theft of service were "minor" because what was being stolen
was not physically tangible. But when the lost revenue for the cable
companies were added to the picture, it's not such a "victimless"
crime.

Speeding, on the surface, does not seem to be a big deal either. But
consider what can happen when there is a traffic mishap. Speed lessens
reaction time, and increases the potential for damage and injury.

Most laws were not created to ruin people's fun. They were created to
protect society as a collective whole.


There would be no reason for me to go chasing after a speeder
and pull along side of him and start to berate him on how
he was speeding. It would just **** him off and maybe create
an even worse situation, road rage.

Maybe so, but if people routinely did this, there would be a lot less
people speeding, and the cops would have an easier job.

Sorry, I'll disagree. Each to their own opinion

Ok, you have the right to disagree. Since you do not agree with my
idea of active community involvement in awareness of laws, then what
would you suggest that we, as a society, do to stem the rising tide of
indifference to laws?


Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

To get a ticket, an officer must see the offence happen,
just telling him that Jimmie was speeding won't do anything.
Maybe if we all lived in Mayberry RFD something might
happen, but not in this day & age.

Maybe that needs to change to some degree. You're right of course, and
that knowledge just enables lawbreakers. Perhaps if people could be
cited without a LEO physically witnessing the offense, the problem
would diminish.

Technology offers yet another solution. GPS technology and OBD-II
emission control systems can be integrated to the point where all
functions of the car can be monitored. If the car travels down a road
over the posted speed limit, it sends a little "On-Star" type message
to a LEO, and a ticket in then issued. This has the added benefit of
enabling the tracking of the car if it were to be stolen. This is
similar to the idea of mounting cameras to take pictures of people
running red lights.
People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe that's what it takes when
you can't trust people to behave on their own.


As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance" law.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!

Hmm.... I'm not sure how I want to proceed here. On the one hand I can
lambast you for your duplicitous position with regard to "selective"
speeding (It's ok, just don't do it on my street). On the other hand,
I might be tempted to say that you give up too easily. Politicians
have to answer to the people, usually those who make the most noise.
Record the problem. Present the issue to the town council, their
decisions are public record. Make it known that if, at some point in
the future, a kid does get killed due to a speeding car, that they can
be held as a party to the crime, due to their negligence, and refusal
to act to mitigate the situation in the face of irrefutable evidence.


Do we, as American citizens, not have a responsibility to stand up for
what is right? Do we have a responsibility to instill the need to be
more law abiding?

Yes, but as for "enforcement" of most laws, that is the responsibility of
the Police, not average Joe on the street.

The police are given the jurisdiction to make arrests and levy fines.
But we all share the responsibility to make it known that we will not
stand by and allow these things to go on. By doing nothing, you are
giving your passive condonation, which further re-enforced the
attitude that breaking the law is "ok".

Here's where we part company Dave....... I AM NOT A
LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER! I will report it to
the local authorities, hope that they handle it accordingly,
that is the reason I pay taxes.

We're not really parting company. I'm not advocating that you play
cop. But reporting the issue repeatedly WILL get the attention of the
LEO's, and the problem will get some attention. If nobody takes the
responsibility to make those reports, the cops will think that all's
well in happytown.

Dave
"Sandbagger"
http://home.ptd.net/~n3cvj

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 May 2004 03:43:39 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:52:46 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:




So what you are saying, in essence, is that people are well aware
of
the rules. If they choose to break them they will do so at their
own
risk.

Yes

Efforts to enforce the rules are a waste of time, since it will
not stem the tide of irresponsible behavior. Is that about right?

No. It is the job of the duly appointed Officer (Sheriff,
constable,
Highway Patrolman, Trooper) to enforce the laws, not me.

Right, but it's the responsibility of every citizen to apply the
social equivalent of peer pressure to those who refuse to "tow the
line". This form of intimidation was widely employed in days long
gone, but has largely been abandoned in this age of indifference.

Dave, peer pressure might work among friends, but complete strangers
couldn't give a rats ass.


You'd be surprised at just how many people's habits are influenced by
the habits of other, complete strangers. Take a look at some of the
ridiculous fashion trends over the years, which have nonetheless
become popular, for the most obvious evidence of this peer influence.


People need to be made aware that "minor laws" are not always as
"minor" as they may think. Many people believed that crimes such as
cable TV theft of service were "minor" because what was being stolen
was not physically tangible. But when the lost revenue for the cable
companies were added to the picture, it's not such a "victimless"
crime.

Speeding, on the surface, does not seem to be a big deal either. But
consider what can happen when there is a traffic mishap. Speed lessens
reaction time, and increases the potential for damage and injury.

Most laws were not created to ruin people's fun. They were created to
protect society as a collective whole.


There would be no reason for me to go chasing after a speeder
and pull along side of him and start to berate him on how
he was speeding. It would just **** him off and maybe create
an even worse situation, road rage.

Maybe so, but if people routinely did this, there would be a lot
less
people speeding, and the cops would have an easier job.

Sorry, I'll disagree. Each to their own opinion

Ok, you have the right to disagree. Since you do not agree with my
idea of active community involvement in awareness of laws, then what
would you suggest that we, as a society, do to stem the rising tide of
indifference to laws?

There's a difference with "community" involvement and State
involvement. While I might say something to someone in my
town, I will not bother with some guy on the highway, that
would never see me again in a million years.


Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

To get a ticket, an officer must see the offence happen,
just telling him that Jimmie was speeding won't do anything.
Maybe if we all lived in Mayberry RFD something might
happen, but not in this day & age.

Maybe that needs to change to some degree. You're right of course, and
that knowledge just enables lawbreakers. Perhaps if people could be
cited without a LEO physically witnessing the offense, the problem
would diminish.

Never happen, due process of the law. We are not deputized
by the local government to enforce the law. Also, same issue
as with enforcing FCC rules by local law, we would have to
go through many hour or training, do you have the time? I
don't raising two kids working 9+ hours a day.


Technology offers yet another solution. GPS technology and OBD-II
emission control systems can be integrated to the point where all
functions of the car can be monitored. If the car travels down a road
over the posted speed limit, it sends a little "On-Star" type message
to a LEO, and a ticket in then issued. This has the added benefit of
enabling the tracking of the car if it were to be stolen. This is
similar to the idea of mounting cameras to take pictures of people
running red lights.
People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe that's what it takes when
you can't trust people to behave on their own.

Already done, dismissed in the courts. A rental car agency
was doing that, issuing speeding tickets to thier customers,
the courts ordered them to stop.

As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance" law.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!

Hmm.... I'm not sure how I want to proceed here. On the one hand I can
lambast you for your duplicitous position with regard to "selective"
speeding (It's ok, just don't do it on my street).

Yeah you could, but then this thread will have gone from a
civil thread to an abusive thread. I am a little that way, as for
around town I don't really speed, out in the coutry side, on
the bike, yeah. But again about the worst that can happen there
is tha I kill myself. As for on the freeway, Bronco doesn't go
over 70MPH, so don't speed there. My other cars on the
freeway, I'll admit that I ocassionally go over the speed limit,
but nothing dramatic, most cars are still passing me, so the
cops go by me and catch the guy that's going 20-30 MPH
over the speed limit.

On the other hand,
I might be tempted to say that you give up too easily. Politicians
have to answer to the people, usually those who make the most noise.
Record the problem. Present the issue to the town council, their
decisions are public record. Make it known that if, at some point in
the future, a kid does get killed due to a speeding car, that they can
be held as a party to the crime, due to their negligence, and refusal
to act to mitigate the situation in the face of irrefutable evidence.

That's correct, petitions, 80% of residents, they still didn't care.
Yes, it usually takes a fatality for locals to install stops signs,
speed enforcement etc etc in the state of California.
You usually can not hold a California politician accountably
unless they show gross disregard or criminal activity.

Do we, as American citizens, not have a responsibility to stand up
for
what is right? Do we have a responsibility to instill the need to be
more law abiding?

Yes, but as for "enforcement" of most laws, that is the responsibility
of
the Police, not average Joe on the street.

The police are given the jurisdiction to make arrests and levy fines.
But we all share the responsibility to make it known that we will not
stand by and allow these things to go on. By doing nothing, you are
giving your passive condonation, which further re-enforced the
attitude that breaking the law is "ok".

Here's where we part company Dave....... I AM NOT A
LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER! I will report it to
the local authorities, hope that they handle it accordingly,
that is the reason I pay taxes.

We're not really parting company. I'm not advocating that you play
cop. But reporting the issue repeatedly WILL get the attention of the
LEO's, and the problem will get some attention. If nobody takes the
responsibility to make those reports, the cops will think that all's
well in happytown.

Dave
"Sandbagger"


Landshark


--
Most true happiness comes
from one's inner life, from the
disposition of the mind and soul.
Admittedly, a good inner life is
hard to achieve, especially in
these trying times. It takes
reflection and contemplation
and self-discipline.

On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:45:36 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:



Right, but it's the responsibility of every citizen to apply the
social equivalent of peer pressure to those who refuse to "tow the
line". This form of intimidation was widely employed in days long
gone, but has largely been abandoned in this age of indifference.

Dave, peer pressure might work among friends, but complete strangers
couldn't give a rats ass.


You'd be surprised at just how many people's habits are influenced by
the habits of other, complete strangers. Take a look at some of the
ridiculous fashion trends over the years, which have nonetheless
become popular, for the most obvious evidence of this peer influence.


People need to be made aware that "minor laws" are not always as
"minor" as they may think. Many people believed that crimes such as
cable TV theft of service were "minor" because what was being stolen
was not physically tangible. But when the lost revenue for the cable
companies were added to the picture, it's not such a "victimless"
crime.

Speeding, on the surface, does not seem to be a big deal either. But
consider what can happen when there is a traffic mishap. Speed lessens
reaction time, and increases the potential for damage and injury.

Most laws were not created to ruin people's fun. They were created to
protect society as a collective whole.


There would be no reason for me to go chasing after a speeder
and pull along side of him and start to berate him on how
he was speeding. It would just **** him off and maybe create
an even worse situation, road rage.

Maybe so, but if people routinely did this, there would be a lot
less
people speeding, and the cops would have an easier job.

Sorry, I'll disagree. Each to their own opinion

Ok, you have the right to disagree. Since you do not agree with my
idea of active community involvement in awareness of laws, then what
would you suggest that we, as a society, do to stem the rising tide of
indifference to laws?

There's a difference with "community" involvement and State
involvement. While I might say something to someone in my
town, I will not bother with some guy on the highway, that
would never see me again in a million years.

So, can I assume then that you have no alternative answer? Should we
just allow society to regress in much the same manner as operators on
CB radio did?



Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

To get a ticket, an officer must see the offence happen,
just telling him that Jimmie was speeding won't do anything.
Maybe if we all lived in Mayberry RFD something might
happen, but not in this day & age.

Maybe that needs to change to some degree. You're right of course, and
that knowledge just enables lawbreakers. Perhaps if people could be
cited without a LEO physically witnessing the offense, the problem
would diminish.

Never happen, due process of the law. We are not deputized
by the local government to enforce the law. Also, same issue
as with enforcing FCC rules by local law, we would have to
go through many hour or training, do you have the time? I
don't raising two kids working 9+ hours a day.


Technology offers yet another solution. GPS technology and OBD-II
emission control systems can be integrated to the point where all
functions of the car can be monitored. If the car travels down a road
over the posted speed limit, it sends a little "On-Star" type message
to a LEO, and a ticket in then issued. This has the added benefit of
enabling the tracking of the car if it were to be stolen. This is
similar to the idea of mounting cameras to take pictures of people
running red lights.
People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe that's what it takes when
you can't trust people to behave on their own.

Already done, dismissed in the courts. A rental car agency
was doing that, issuing speeding tickets to thier customers,
the courts ordered them to stop.

There's a difference between a rental car agency and a provision in
the law. If the law were changed, it would be allowed. Your testimony
only proves that the technology is viable.


As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance" law.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!

Hmm.... I'm not sure how I want to proceed here. On the one hand I can
lambast you for your duplicitous position with regard to "selective"
speeding (It's ok, just don't do it on my street).

Yeah you could, but then this thread will have gone from a
civil thread to an abusive thread.

Not really. I don't lambast people directly, only their ideas.


I am a little that way, as for
around town I don't really speed, out in the coutry side, on
the bike, yeah. But again about the worst that can happen there
is tha I kill myself. As for on the freeway, Bronco doesn't go
over 70MPH, so don't speed there. My other cars on the
freeway, I'll admit that I ocassionally go over the speed limit,
but nothing dramatic, most cars are still passing me, so the
cops go by me and catch the guy that's going 20-30 MPH
over the speed limit.

Same thing here. I never speed in a residential area. I may push it to
60 or 62 MPH on the highway, since they can't cite you in Pa, until
you exceed 5 MPH over the limit.


On the other hand,
I might be tempted to say that you give up too easily. Politicians
have to answer to the people, usually those who make the most noise.
Record the problem. Present the issue to the town council, their
decisions are public record. Make it known that if, at some point in
the future, a kid does get killed due to a speeding car, that they can
be held as a party to the crime, due to their negligence, and refusal
to act to mitigate the situation in the face of irrefutable evidence.

That's correct, petitions, 80% of residents, they still didn't care.
Yes, it usually takes a fatality for locals to install stops signs,
speed enforcement etc etc in the state of California.
You usually can not hold a California politician accountably
unless they show gross disregard or criminal activity.

Those petitions and other actions that you take can be admitted as
evidence. Their lack of response can then be interpreted as "gross
negligence". Most juries would be more inclined to side with the dead
kid's parents than a do-nothing politician.

Maybe if a few cases set precedent, other local politicians will sit
up and take notice.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:45:36 GMT, "Landshark"
wrote:


There's a difference with "community" involvement and State
involvement. While I might say something to someone in my
town, I will not bother with some guy on the highway, that
would never see me again in a million years.

So, can I assume then that you have no alternative answer? Should we
just allow society to regress in much the same manner as operators on
CB radio did?

There's not much you can do about society as a whole. You
can only make your part of society the best you can. Raise
the children with good values and to respect their elders.
I can not see the regress of CB as the eminent downfall
of society.



Any cop will tell you not to confront a law breaker, call them and
let them know, that is their job. Throw a ball in front of a
speeding
car, make him swerve, possibly crash, injure himself or someone
other, you will be the law breaker, not the speeder.

That would not be a good idea. But leaving a little "note" on the
offender's car every time it happens, including the forwarding of
their license number to the cops, might make someone think a little.

To get a ticket, an officer must see the offence happen,
just telling him that Jimmie was speeding won't do anything.
Maybe if we all lived in Mayberry RFD something might
happen, but not in this day & age.

Maybe that needs to change to some degree. You're right of course, and
that knowledge just enables lawbreakers. Perhaps if people could be
cited without a LEO physically witnessing the offense, the problem
would diminish.

Never happen, due process of the law. We are not deputized
by the local government to enforce the law. Also, same issue
as with enforcing FCC rules by local law, we would have to
go through many hour or training, do you have the time? I
don't raising two kids working 9+ hours a day.


Technology offers yet another solution. GPS technology and OBD-II
emission control systems can be integrated to the point where all
functions of the car can be monitored. If the car travels down a road
over the posted speed limit, it sends a little "On-Star" type message
to a LEO, and a ticket in then issued. This has the added benefit of
enabling the tracking of the car if it were to be stolen. This is
similar to the idea of mounting cameras to take pictures of people
running red lights.
People will scream "Big Brother". But maybe that's what it takes when
you can't trust people to behave on their own.

Already done, dismissed in the courts. A rental car agency
was doing that, issuing speeding tickets to thier customers,
the courts ordered them to stop.

There's a difference between a rental car agency and a provision in
the law. If the law were changed, it would be allowed. Your testimony
only proves that the technology is viable.

Yes Technology is available, but it won't be used, at least
probably not in our lifetime. As for the rental car agency,
they were turning them into the state troopers, the DA then
threw the cases out of court.



As a parent, I have become very conscious of people speeding through
residential neighborhoods. I would hate to have my kid or an
neighbor's kid fall victim to someone who's ignoring a "nuisance"
law.

Good Luck! I've gone to the city and county councils, tried
to get the street closed at one end, to prevent all the people
from speeding down my street to get over to their street
faster, but not a chance. Speed bumps? Yeah right! I
don't want to hear the sound of cars "jumping" the speed
bumps at all hours of the night & day. So the best they
can offer is "selective" enforcement, LOL!! Useless!

Hmm.... I'm not sure how I want to proceed here. On the one hand I can
lambast you for your duplicitous position with regard to "selective"
speeding (It's ok, just don't do it on my street).

Yeah you could, but then this thread will have gone from a
civil thread to an abusive thread.

Not really. I don't lambast people directly, only their ideas.


I am a little that way, as for
around town I don't really speed, out in the coutry side, on
the bike, yeah. But again about the worst that can happen there
is tha I kill myself. As for on the freeway, Bronco doesn't go
over 70MPH, so don't speed there. My other cars on the
freeway, I'll admit that I ocassionally go over the speed limit,
but nothing dramatic, most cars are still passing me, so the
cops go by me and catch the guy that's going 20-30 MPH
over the speed limit.

Same thing here. I never speed in a residential area. I may push it to
60 or 62 MPH on the highway, since they can't cite you in Pa, until
you exceed 5 MPH over the limit.

Speed limit in this state on the highways and freeways is
between 55 & 75 MPH.

On the other hand,
I might be tempted to say that you give up too easily. Politicians
have to answer to the people, usually those who make the most noise.
Record the problem. Present the issue to the town council, their
decisions are public record. Make it known that if, at some point in
the future, a kid does get killed due to a speeding car, that they can
be held as a party to the crime, due to their negligence, and refusal
to act to mitigate the situation in the face of irrefutable evidence.

That's correct, petitions, 80% of residents, they still didn't care.
Yes, it usually takes a fatality for locals to install stops signs,
speed enforcement etc etc in the state of California.
You usually can not hold a California politician accountably
unless they show gross disregard or criminal activity.

Those petitions and other actions that you take can be admitted as
evidence. Their lack of response can then be interpreted as "gross
negligence". Most juries would be more inclined to side with the dead
kid's parents than a do-nothing politician.

Again, good luck trying in this state. I'm sure there is some sort of
immunity laws that protect the *******s.

Maybe if a few cases set precedent, other local politicians will sit
up and take notice.

Doubtful, look at the how we had to spend billions to get rid of
a governor, that took a surplus of billions of dollars and made it
a deficit of billions of dollars in only a couple of years.

Dave
"Sandbagger"

Landshark


--
The world is good-natured to people
who are good natured.