Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message ... Name one federal agency that doesn't claim to suffer from a lack of funding. I'm thinking........ Maybe the IRS? 8-)) I have used that argument myself but I have since found out that it doesn't wash: Many CBers -don't- know the rules. And while any person can refuse a station inspection, most CBers (and many hams) are not aware that such a refusal can be used as 'evidence' against him, and is therefore a violation of the 5th amendment. I would like to see some legal opinions in that area. You do rasie an interesting point. Wrong. You can't challenge the violation in court like you can a traffic ticket. FCC fines are enforced by the Treasury Dept as uncollected debts, -not- as violations of FCC rules. I've read where some who have gotten NAL's have had their day in court in front of an administrative law judge. CFR 47 and the rules under it are considered administrative law and can thus be heard in court. Some have even won their cases. Check it out for yourself. What I meant was that the FCC has the power to write their own rules under the CFR to enforce the USC as they see fit. Since the power of the FCC is not balanced by a watchdog agency, They are. It's called the Congress of The United States. If you don't keep up with Ham related things such as zoning-convents-home owner associations, where they restrict erection of antenna towers etc. and the PRB-1 issue, you won't know. The FCC has made a ruling granting a partial over ruling of such restrictions for TV antennas. Also it states that "reasonable accommodations" have to be made for Ham antennas. Its not a blacket override. Many Hams have requested that the FCC issue an order more specific. I bring this up as a point because the FCC said they will not issue such an order unless directed by Congress by way of law making. So as you can see they can't make up any rules they like. They are bound by the Congress, and any treaties they sign, like at the last world administrate radio conference. I will agree that they do have a wide latitude in what they can do, but it is non the less has bounds. Wrong. Notice what happens when a cop is on the road Tell that to the truckers I see routinely doing 60+ MPH in crealy marked 55 MPH zones, cops or not. Police presence DOES make a difference. But only if they know for sure they will actually do something. I was in Georgia driving south of Atlanta, on my way to Macon for a work assignment, driving on I75 a week ago. I got routinely passed by truckers doing well over 70 MPH, which is the posted speed limit. I also saw plenty of 4 wheelers getting pulled over for speeding. I can't recall seeing any of the hordes of speeding 18 wheelers getting pulled over. And I saw plenty of cops everywere I went. Cite a single case involving the FCC tossing a white collar exec in jail for a similar charge. I don't have any at my finger tips, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any. And if by chance there are non there is always a first time. As they say with investing "past performance is no indication of future returns", in other words they, the FCC, could do so at their discretion. They won't. If they did there would be constitutional challenges to their rules and the FCC would probably lose I doubt it. When they have the violator on audio tape They screw criminals all the time with wire taps etc. Seems to me if it was so unconstitutional some sharp attorney would have put that baby to bed a long time ago, and permanently too. As far as anything transmitted over the air there really is no reasonable expectation of privacy without extraordinary measures being taken, such as using encryption. It then becomes like the "in plain sight" rules the street cops use when finding edvidence. That's a constitutional violation in and of itself. with signal strenght readings, frequency counter readings, spectrum analyzer screen shots etc, when they go to court they're cooked. Besides, were in the constitution does it say that a citizen has the right to use a radio transmitter, much less in any maner they choose? The issue is not about a person's right to use a radio transmitter, but about the protections of the accused that are -supposed- to be guaranteed by the constitution. Like, 'innocent until proven guilty in a court of law'. Last time I checked the FCC is not a part of the judicial branch. They can accuse but they CANNOT determine guilt. That's why their citations are notifications of APPARENT liability. Like I said above, if you don't like it take it to the judge. Same as a speeding ticket. If someone uses a radio transmitter in violation of the law then by all means they should be held accountable. But the -means- by which that person is brought to justice by the FCC is unconstitutional and they know it. Anybody who disagrees with an FCC NAL can have their day in court and there is nothing the FCC can do to stop it. EVERY person has the constitutional right to challenge ANY law. The problem is that the FCC has been very careful about preventing any such challenges. Ah no. For the violator it sure is. Unless you're a big corporation a private person doesn't stand much of a chance when the FCC has the wealth of the Federal Treasury behind it to spend on legal proceddings. I can asure you their legal budget is bigger that your's or mine. Exactly! And that's why any fine against a large company by the FCC will never be large enough to justify any such challenge -- they will simply write it off as an expense, just like Twisty explained. That is an economic decision by the company. There is nothing that prevents them from pursuing the issue in court if the money is not a concern. That's also why the fines are never enough to incite any legal challenge in the courts, It's not always about the money. I have read where some have gone to court just over the principle of the mater. The money wasn't the main consideration for them. And those cases are usually settled out-of-court before they reach the Supreme Court. Everyone has a price. The Supreme Court picks and chooses which cases it wants to hear based on how widely it would affect the law of the land. or to people and companies that do not have the financial resources to mount such a challenge. And that's a shame too. It's not just the FCC that does this. How many people have gotten screwed over because they don't have the money to stand up for their rights in court? Too many. You are absolutely correct. Justice is for the rich. I have to agree with you here. snip the FCC wasn't going to do anything about 10m intruders. Looks like they are doing something now. A token effort, just enough to keep the hammies thinking that they aren't being ignored. There are only around 750K licensed Hams in the USA. I would suppose only a fraction of them are making complaints to the FCC. The FCC could as well just ignore the complaints all together. The fact that they're not doing so would suggest the enforcement action isn't simply to placate those complaining, but a genuine effort at enforcement action as limited as it is currently. 750K is a significant number of people, and if the FCC dropped enforcement of the ham bands there would be an equally significant backlash. Not just because of the numbers, but also because those people have a license -- a 'contract' with the government -- to use those bands. If the FCC welches on 750K contracts you can bet that there would be hell to pay. Assuming that the FCC won't get more aggressive in the future is not being smart. All it takes is a change in the leadership of the FCC. Imagine if a new FCC chairmen is appointed, and is a Ham with an ax to grind about the present situation? The chairman has very little power to change the workings of the FCC. The chairmen sets the tone for the whole agency. The commissioners take their cue from him. Here's the link to Part 0 (Commission Organization): http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...47cfr0_02.html Where in there does it say anything even remotely close to what you describe as the role of the chairman? See this link http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2.../47cfr0.11.pdf Look under section 0.13. You have to read between the lines, but I think you'll get the drift. The chairmen can exert influence over what the commission does in an indirect manner. And that was all I implied by my prior statement. It is the commission as a whole that has the power in that agency, and therefore it is controlled by whomever controls the commissioners. Yeah, the chairmen, like I said. If you read through the relevent sections of Part 0 (linked above) you will see that the chairman is nothing more than a representative and a facilitator. He is -not- the controlling force of the FCC. If he was then it wouldn't be called a "commission". So why are the lobbyists always trying to get the chairman's era? If he doesn't matter why are they wasting their time with him? As you should know what is said on paper, how it should work, may not always match how it really gets done. Since there is so much corporate interest in the other aspects of the FCC, the ARS and CB will always be generally ignored -regardless- of who sits in the big chair. It's well documented that the current chairmen has an agenda that seems to be mainly fueled by corporate money being offered for valuable spectrum and that dang BPL crap. That's been true of the whole commission, and it's been true for many, many years. As for the BPL issue, don't put the cart before the horse: wait to see just how much of a problem it causes -in fact-, and if it's enough of a problem that makes 750K hams feel the FCC is ignoring their 'contracts' then you will probably see some corrective actions by the FCC. I've read reports where the interference was so bad that in one or more foreign countries have pulled the plug completely on BPL. In reported case here in the USA about reported interference the BPL provider was unable to resolve the problems even after months of tweaking the system. There is a new technology on the horizon that may just obsolete BPL anyway, the 802.16 for a wireless MAN (Metropolitan Area Network). snip Jerry has chosen a course of action. I may not agree that it's the -best- course of action, but then I'm not a ham and don't see things from his perspective. Give it a few minutes of thought then. The worst that can happen is you may even agree with him on some points. 8-)) You missed -my- point: ham radio is none of my business. In reality it is to a degree. It isn't called a "service" for nothing you know. One of the primary reasons for the existence of Ham Radio is to provide emergency communications. This is something that affects Hams and non Hams alike. Just ask Keith here on the group. That's one main reason why he got his Ham ticket, and I'm sure he has put it to good use the last several months. I -am- a CBer, Gee, I didn't know that. ;-)) and IMO you can stick a much bigger thorn in the FCC's ass if you pester your congressional rep. It happens. Evidently it doesn't happen enough. Yup. It still won't get anything accomplished, but at least you're forcing the FCC to answer to someone with some authority. Why do you think some of what is happening is happening? Maybe not enough to suit some people, but some progress is being made. All I see happening is the ARRL taking a step forward after being pushed back three steps. That's not progress, it's damage control. If there is one sure thing in life its change. Assuming things are going to stay the same just isn't reasonable. So if it's bad its going to get better. -- Leland C. Scott KC8LDO Wireless Network Mobile computing on the go brought to you by Micro$oft |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"Leland C. Scott" wrote in message ... "Frank Gilliland" wrote in message ... Name one federal agency that doesn't claim to suffer from a lack of funding. I'm thinking........ Maybe the IRS? 8-)) I have used that argument myself but I have since found out that it doesn't wash: Many CBers -don't- know the rules. And while any person can refuse a station inspection, most CBers (and many hams) are not aware that such a refusal can be used as 'evidence' against him, and is therefore a violation of the 5th amendment. I would like to see some legal opinions in that area. You do rasie an interesting point. Wrong. You can't challenge the violation in court like you can a traffic ticket. FCC fines are enforced by the Treasury Dept as uncollected debts, -not- as violations of FCC rules. I've read where some who have gotten NAL's have had their day in court in front of an administrative law judge. CFR 47 and the rules under it are considered administrative law and can thus be heard in court. Some have even won their cases. Check it out for yourself. Was that after only one NAL? or after multiple NAL's and multiple times that you paid the fine they imposed? Heard? I've never heard that. On the other hand, it could happen, but only after many NAL's & many hearings with the FCC before you would go to a Federal Court. What I meant was that the FCC has the power to write their own rules under the CFR to enforce the USC as they see fit. Since the power of the FCC is not balanced by a watchdog agency, They are. It's called the Congress of The United States. If you don't keep up with Ham related things such as zoning-convents-home owner associations, where they restrict erection of antenna towers etc. and the PRB-1 issue, you won't know. The FCC has made a ruling granting a partial over ruling of such restrictions for TV antennas. Also it states that "reasonable accommodations" have to be made for Ham antennas. Its not a blacket override. Many Hams have requested that the FCC issue an order more specific. I bring this up as a point because the FCC said they will not issue such an order unless directed by Congress by way of law making. So as you can see they can't make up any rules they like. They are bound by the Congress, and any treaties they sign, like at the last world administrate radio conference. I will agree that they do have a wide latitude in what they can do, but it is non the less has bounds. Did they go before Congress to get the "rule" on the "export" radio's? I don't think so. They, like the IRS can take almost any existing law and interpret it their own way and create a new "rule". That's why they are called rules, not laws. Wrong. Notice what happens when a cop is on the road Tell that to the truckers I see routinely doing 60+ MPH in crealy marked 55 MPH zones, cops or not. Police presence DOES make a difference. But only if they know for sure they will actually do something. I was in Georgia driving south of Atlanta, on my way to Macon for a work assignment, driving on I75 a week ago. I got routinely passed by truckers doing well over 70 MPH, which is the posted speed limit. I also saw plenty of 4 wheelers getting pulled over for speeding. I can't recall seeing any of the hordes of speeding 18 wheelers getting pulled over. And I saw plenty of cops everywere I went. Well Lee, they cracked down on truckers out here. It was all over the news how they were giving a zero tolerance for a month on all big rigs. The issue is not about a person's right to use a radio transmitter, but about the protections of the accused that are -supposed- to be guaranteed by the constitution. Like, 'innocent until proven guilty in a court of law'. Last time I checked the FCC is not a part of the judicial branch. They can accuse but they CANNOT determine guilt. That's why their citations are notifications of APPARENT liability. Like I said above, if you don't like it take it to the judge. Same as a speeding ticket. Not really. Again, you have to appear before the FCC and pay the fines before you can begin to contest their ruling. How many times can you afford to have an attorny apera on your behalf? If someone uses a radio transmitter in violation of the law then by all means they should be held accountable. But the -means- by which that person is brought to justice by the FCC is unconstitutional and they know it. Anybody who disagrees with an FCC NAL can have their day in court and there is nothing the FCC can do to stop it. See above. EVERY person has the constitutional right to challenge ANY law. The problem is that the FCC has been very careful about preventing any such challenges. Ah no. Ah, Frank's right. For the violator it sure is. Unless you're a big corporation a private person doesn't stand much of a chance when the FCC has the wealth of the Federal Treasury behind it to spend on legal proceddings. I can asure you their legal budget is bigger that your's or mine. Exactly! And that's why any fine against a large company by the FCC will never be large enough to justify any such challenge -- they will simply write it off as an expense, just like Twisty explained. That is an economic decision by the company. There is nothing that prevents them from pursuing the issue in court if the money is not a concern. That's also why the fines are never enough to incite any legal challenge in the courts, It's not always about the money. I have read where some have gone to court just over the principle of the mater. The money wasn't the main consideration for them. And those cases are usually settled out-of-court before they reach the Supreme Court. Everyone has a price. The Supreme Court picks and chooses which cases it wants to hear based on how widely it would affect the law of the land. or to people and companies that do not have the financial resources to mount such a challenge. And that's a shame too. It's not just the FCC that does this. How many people have gotten screwed over because they don't have the money to stand up for their rights in court? Too many. You are absolutely correct. Justice is for the rich. I have to agree with you here. snip the FCC wasn't going to do anything about 10m intruders. Looks like they are doing something now. A token effort, just enough to keep the hammies thinking that they aren't being ignored. There are only around 750K licensed Hams in the USA. I would suppose only a fraction of them are making complaints to the FCC. The FCC could as well just ignore the complaints all together. The fact that they're not doing so would suggest the enforcement action isn't simply to placate those complaining, but a genuine effort at enforcement action as limited as it is currently. 750K is a significant number of people, and if the FCC dropped enforcement of the ham bands there would be an equally significant backlash. Not just because of the numbers, but also because those people have a license -- a 'contract' with the government -- to use those bands. If the FCC welches on 750K contracts you can bet that there would be hell to pay. Assuming that the FCC won't get more aggressive in the future is not being smart. All it takes is a change in the leadership of the FCC. Imagine if a new FCC chairmen is appointed, and is a Ham with an ax to grind about the present situation? The chairman has very little power to change the workings of the FCC. The chairmen sets the tone for the whole agency. The commissioners take their cue from him. Here's the link to Part 0 (Commission Organization): http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...47cfr0_02.html Where in there does it say anything even remotely close to what you describe as the role of the chairman? See this link http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2.../47cfr0.11.pdf Look under section 0.13. You have to read between the lines, but I think you'll get the drift. The chairmen can exert influence over what the commission does in an indirect manner. And that was all I implied by my prior statement. It is the commission as a whole that has the power in that agency, and therefore it is controlled by whomever controls the commissioners. Yeah, the chairmen, like I said. If you read through the relevent sections of Part 0 (linked above) you will see that the chairman is nothing more than a representative and a facilitator. He is -not- the controlling force of the FCC. If he was then it wouldn't be called a "commission". So why are the lobbyists always trying to get the chairman's era? If he doesn't matter why are they wasting their time with him? As you should know what is said on paper, how it should work, may not always match how it really gets done. Since there is so much corporate interest in the other aspects of the FCC, the ARS and CB will always be generally ignored -regardless- of who sits in the big chair. It's well documented that the current chairmen has an agenda that seems to be mainly fueled by corporate money being offered for valuable spectrum and that dang BPL crap. That's been true of the whole commission, and it's been true for many, many years. As for the BPL issue, don't put the cart before the horse: wait to see just how much of a problem it causes -in fact-, and if it's enough of a problem that makes 750K hams feel the FCC is ignoring their 'contracts' then you will probably see some corrective actions by the FCC. I've read reports where the interference was so bad that in one or more foreign countries have pulled the plug completely on BPL. In reported case here in the USA about reported interference the BPL provider was unable to resolve the problems even after months of tweaking the system. There is a new technology on the horizon that may just obsolete BPL anyway, the 802.16 for a wireless MAN (Metropolitan Area Network). snip Jerry has chosen a course of action. I may not agree that it's the -best- course of action, but then I'm not a ham and don't see things from his perspective. Give it a few minutes of thought then. The worst that can happen is you may even agree with him on some points. 8-)) You missed -my- point: ham radio is none of my business. In reality it is to a degree. It isn't called a "service" for nothing you know. One of the primary reasons for the existence of Ham Radio is to provide emergency communications. This is something that affects Hams and non Hams alike. Just ask Keith here on the group. That's one main reason why he got his Ham ticket, and I'm sure he has put it to good use the last several months. I -am- a CBer, Gee, I didn't know that. ;-)) and IMO you can stick a much bigger thorn in the FCC's ass if you pester your congressional rep. It happens. Evidently it doesn't happen enough. Yup. It still won't get anything accomplished, but at least you're forcing the FCC to answer to someone with some authority. Why do you think some of what is happening is happening? Maybe not enough to suit some people, but some progress is being made. All I see happening is the ARRL taking a step forward after being pushed back three steps. That's not progress, it's damage control. If there is one sure thing in life its change. Assuming things are going to stay the same just isn't reasonable. So if it's bad its going to get better. -- Leland C. Scott KC8LDO Wireless Network Mobile computing on the go brought to you by Micro$oft Landshark -- The world is good-natured to people who are good natured. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
"Landshark" wrote in message news "Leland C. Scott" wrote in message ... "Frank Gilliland" wrote in message ... Name one federal agency that doesn't claim to suffer from a lack of funding. I'm thinking........ Maybe the IRS? 8-)) I have used that argument myself but I have since found out that it doesn't wash: Many CBers -don't- know the rules. And while any person can refuse a station inspection, most CBers (and many hams) are not aware that such a refusal can be used as 'evidence' against him, and is therefore a violation of the 5th amendment. I would like to see some legal opinions in that area. You do rasie an interesting point. Wrong. You can't challenge the violation in court like you can a traffic ticket. FCC fines are enforced by the Treasury Dept as uncollected debts, -not- as violations of FCC rules. I've read where some who have gotten NAL's have had their day in court in front of an administrative law judge. CFR 47 and the rules under it are considered administrative law and can thus be heard in court. Some have even won their cases. Check it out for yourself. Was that after only one NAL? Yeah, why not? You don't need to get more than one speeding ticket to get your day in court do you? Did they go before Congress to get the "rule" on the "export" radio's? So where did the huge volume of laws on the books come from when all this country started with are a handful of articles under the US Constitution? I don't think so. They, like the IRS can take almost any existing law and interpret it their own way and create a new "rule". That's why they are called rules, not laws. Its call "Adminastrive Law". Ask an attorney. He'll tell you the same thing. Wrong. Notice what happens when a cop is on the road Tell that to the truckers I see routinely doing 60+ MPH in crealy marked 55 MPH zones, cops or not. Police presence DOES make a difference. But only if they know for sure they will actually do something. I was in Georgia driving south of Atlanta, on my way to Macon for a work assignment, driving on I75 a week ago. I got routinely passed by truckers doing well over 70 MPH, which is the posted speed limit. I also saw plenty of 4 wheelers getting pulled over for speeding. I can't recall seeing any of the hordes of speeding 18 wheelers getting pulled over. And I saw plenty of cops everywere I went. Well Lee, they cracked down on truckers out here. It was all over the news how they were giving a zero tolerance for a month on all big rigs. The issue is not about a person's right to use a radio transmitter, but about the protections of the accused that are -supposed- to be guaranteed by the constitution. Like, 'innocent until proven guilty in a court of law'. Last time I checked the FCC is not a part of the judicial branch. They can accuse but they CANNOT determine guilt. That's why their citations are notifications of APPARENT liability. Like I said above, if you don't like it take it to the judge. Same as a speeding ticket. Not really. Again, you have to appear before the FCC and pay the fines before you can begin to contest their ruling. No. How many times can you afford to have an attorny apera on your behalf? Have you paid any FCC fines? If someone uses a radio transmitter in violation of the law then by all means they should be held accountable. But the -means- by which that person is brought to justice by the FCC is unconstitutional and they know it. Anybody who disagrees with an FCC NAL can have their day in court and there is nothing the FCC can do to stop it. See above. EVERY person has the constitutional right to challenge ANY law. The problem is that the FCC has been very careful about preventing any such challenges. Ah no. Ah, Frank's right. You guys need to read this before going any further. Sample court motion below. http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/dfiles/file_158.pdf Offical FCC legal process. The link below should be all on one line to work. http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi...i on=retrieve This should settle the argument permently if you understand legal terms. -- Leland C. Scott KC8LDO Wireless Network Mobile computing on the go brought to you by Micro$oft |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
"Leland C. Scott" wrote in message ... You guys need to read this before going any further. Sample court motion below. http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/dfiles/file_158.pdf Ummm, Lee, that's cool, but that was a song writer, Radio Station, their Lawyers filing a civil case. That's why it's Sarah Jones vs. The FCC................. Do you have that option to pay their fine , then take them to court? That wasn't a Ham or a cb'er. Not many people can have a lawyer, let alone multiple lawyers go to court for a Nal. Offical FCC legal process. The link below should be all on one line to work. http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi...i on=retrieve This should settle the argument permently if you understand legal terms. Dead link. No argument settled -- Leland C. Scott KC8LDO Landshark -- That does suck..sometimes you're the windshield..sometimes you're the bug. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
"Landshark" wrote in message news "Leland C. Scott" wrote in message ... You guys need to read this before going any further. Sample court motion below. http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/dfiles/file_158.pdf Ummm, Lee, that's cool, but that was a song writer, Radio Station, their Lawyers filing a civil case. That's why it's Sarah Jones vs. The FCC................. Do you have that option to pay their fine , then take them to court? That wasn't a Ham or a cb'er. Not many people can have a lawyer, let alone multiple lawyers go to court for a Nal. Offical FCC legal process. The link below should be all on one line to work. http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi...i on=retrieve This should settle the argument permently if you understand legal terms. Dead link. No argument settled The junk above should be all on one line. When I pasted it to the post it got split in to two lines. Try putting everything on one line. It should work. Its a direct copy of what was in IExplorer's address bar. -- Leland C. Scott KC8LDO Wireless Network Mobile computing on the go brought to you by Micro$oft |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
"Leland C. Scott" wrote in message ... "Landshark" wrote in message news "Leland C. Scott" wrote in message ... You guys need to read this before going any further. Sample court motion below. http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/dfiles/file_158.pdf Ummm, Lee, that's cool, but that was a song writer, Radio Station, their Lawyers filing a civil case. That's why it's Sarah Jones vs. The FCC................. Do you have that option to pay their fine , then take them to court? That wasn't a Ham or a cb'er. Not many people can have a lawyer, let alone multiple lawyers go to court for a Nal. Offical FCC legal process. The link below should be all on one line to work. http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi...i on=retrieve This should settle the argument permently if you understand legal terms. Dead link. No argument settled The junk above should be all on one line. When I pasted it to the post it got split in to two lines. Try putting everything on one line. It should work. Its a direct copy of what was in IExplorer's address bar. -- Leland C. Scott KC8LDO Wireless Network Mobile computing on the go brought to you by Micro$oft Nope, you're still clueless. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
"Leland C. Scott" wrote in message ... "Landshark" wrote in message news "Leland C. Scott" wrote in message ... You guys need to read this before going any further. Sample court motion below. http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/dfiles/file_158.pdf Ummm, Lee, that's cool, but that was a song writer, Radio Station, their Lawyers filing a civil case. That's why it's Sarah Jones vs. The FCC................. Do you have that option to pay their fine , then take them to court? That wasn't a Ham or a cb'er. Not many people can have a lawyer, let alone multiple lawyers go to court for a Nal. Offical FCC legal process. The link below should be all on one line to work. http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi...i on=retrieve This should settle the argument permently if you understand legal terms. Dead link. No argument settled The junk above should be all on one line. When I pasted it to the post it got split in to two lines. Try putting everything on one line. It should work. Its a direct copy of what was in IExplorer's address bar. -- Leland C. Scott KC8LDO Still Dead link. As Frank has stated, when are you going to show a court case where someone was issued a NAL and went to court to contest it, not before the FCC. Landshark -- That does suck..sometimes you're the windshield..sometimes you're the bug. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
"Landshark" wrote in message news "Leland C. Scott" wrote in message ... "Landshark" wrote in message news "Leland C. Scott" wrote in message ... You guys need to read this before going any further. Sample court motion below. http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/dfiles/file_158.pdf Ummm, Lee, that's cool, but that was a song writer, Radio Station, their Lawyers filing a civil case. That's why it's Sarah Jones vs. The FCC................. Do you have that option to pay their fine , then take them to court? That wasn't a Ham or a cb'er. Not many people can have a lawyer, let alone multiple lawyers go to court for a Nal. Offical FCC legal process. The link below should be all on one line to work. http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi...i on=retrieve This should settle the argument permently if you understand legal terms. Dead link. No argument settled Then try this one. http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...47cfr1_03.html Plenty of stuff to read. The details are all spelled out there. You will have to do some jumping around from subsection to subsection. When you're done I think you'll have a better feel for how the FCC goes about it's business. It's not as Macavelian as Frank and the others would have you believe. There is legal recourse, in front of an Administrate Law Judge. And If you don't like the results then you can go to an Appeals Court. The FCC does have Congressional oversight. In fact many Federal agencies have a Congressional oversight committee that directs their actions. We the public may not hear about it much, but then again how may people really have that much interest in how their government works to go and find out? Most people don't even know who their state's congressional members are by name. Some may complain that the court hearings are done under the FCC. This gets back to what I mentioned in another post about what is "a court of law". I didn't make that statement lightly. It was meant to get one thinking about the subject. Twist provided a quickie definition. The proceedings may not fit everybody's stereotype of "a court of law" but it is one never the less. You can also play all the word games you want too, by calling the FCC regulations "rules", but they are officially "administrate law", which any attorney can tell you. Let me know what you think after you had time to read the material. I'm not going to debate it any further since it's all there for anybody to read. I will admit some of the explanations are a bit confusing. I suppose it would help to have a legal background to fully comprehend the details. -- Leland C. Scott KC8LDO Wireless Network Mobile computing on the go brought to you by Micro$oft |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:04:38 -0500, "Leland C. Scott"
wrote in : "Frank Gilliland" wrote in message .. . Name one federal agency that doesn't claim to suffer from a lack of funding. I'm thinking........ Maybe the IRS? 8-)) Touche'. I have used that argument myself but I have since found out that it doesn't wash: Many CBers -don't- know the rules. And while any person can refuse a station inspection, most CBers (and many hams) are not aware that such a refusal can be used as 'evidence' against him, and is therefore a violation of the 5th amendment. I would like to see some legal opinions in that area. So would I since it's only my opinion. But what -isn't- my opinion is the 4th Amendment, which is very specific about searches and seizures. You do rasie an interesting point. Wrong. You can't challenge the violation in court like you can a traffic ticket. FCC fines are enforced by the Treasury Dept as uncollected debts, -not- as violations of FCC rules. I've read where some who have gotten NAL's have had their day in court in front of an administrative law judge. CFR 47 and the rules under it are considered administrative law and can thus be heard in court. Some have even won their cases. Check it out for yourself. I will. Got a link? What I meant was that the FCC has the power to write their own rules under the CFR to enforce the USC as they see fit. Since the power of the FCC is not balanced by a watchdog agency, They are. It's called the Congress of The United States. If you don't keep up with Ham related things such as zoning-convents-home owner associations, where they restrict erection of antenna towers etc. and the PRB-1 issue, you won't know. The FCC has made a ruling granting a partial over ruling of such restrictions for TV antennas. Also it states that "reasonable accommodations" have to be made for Ham antennas. Its not a blacket override. Many Hams have requested that the FCC issue an order more specific. I bring this up as a point because the FCC said they will not issue such an order unless directed by Congress by way of law making. So as you can see they can't make up any rules they like. They are bound by the Congress, and any treaties they sign, like at the last world administrate radio conference. I will agree that they do have a wide latitude in what they can do, but it is non the less has bounds. For an example to support my opinion, read 18 USC subsection 2511. This is the law that prohibits interception of communication. The law includes exceptions for reasons such as law enforcement. But even law enforcement agencies are required to jump through hoops in order to intercept communications and use it as evidence. Yet the FCC has written themselves a blank check: The same law permits the FCC to intercept communications without any warrant or showing of probable cause. As for the idea that congress controls the FCC, I should remind you that many big bill packages (such as the spending bill currently before this lame-duck congress) are filled with subtle laws (as well as pork-barrel spending) that get passed without ever being read because the bill is so large. One such law that almost snuck through in this bill was one that would have put a cap on lawsuits against drug companies even if the company knew beforehand that their product was bad. There are plenty of bad laws like this that slip through congress without even a blink. And you can bet that the FCC slips their own bills through, too. So while congress may -technically- control the FCC, the reality is that they don't. The commissioners are controlled by the lobbyists hired by corporate fat-cats, and most of congress is too busy with their partisan politics to worry about little things like bad laws. That may be a cynical perception, but nonetheless accurate. Wrong. Notice what happens when a cop is on the road Tell that to the truckers I see routinely doing 60+ MPH in crealy marked 55 MPH zones, cops or not. Cops don't ticket truckers for speeding? Boy, that's news to me! I've only known one trucker that never got a speeding ticket, but he had only been driving for a month. I'm sure he has a few by now. Police presence DOES make a difference. But only if they know for sure they will actually do something. I was in Georgia driving south of Atlanta, on my way to Macon for a work assignment, driving on I75 a week ago. I got routinely passed by truckers doing well over 70 MPH, which is the posted speed limit. I also saw plenty of 4 wheelers getting pulled over for speeding. I can't recall seeing any of the hordes of speeding 18 wheelers getting pulled over. And I saw plenty of cops everywere I went. Maybe those 4-wheelers should get themselves CB radios...... snip I doubt it. When they have the violator on audio tape They screw criminals all the time with wire taps etc. Seems to me if it was so unconstitutional some sharp attorney would have put that baby to bed a long time ago, and permanently too. As far as anything transmitted over the air there really is no reasonable expectation of privacy without extraordinary measures being taken, such as using encryption. It then becomes like the "in plain sight" rules the street cops use when finding edvidence. Perhaps. But again, every law enforcement agency -except- the FCC requires a warrant to obtain a wiretap. And even if the audio is admissible as evidence, it's up to a jury -- NOT the FCC -- to determine the weight of that evidence. That's a constitutional violation in and of itself. snip The issue is not about a person's right to use a radio transmitter, but about the protections of the accused that are -supposed- to be guaranteed by the constitution. Like, 'innocent until proven guilty in a court of law'. Last time I checked the FCC is not a part of the judicial branch. They can accuse but they CANNOT determine guilt. That's why their citations are notifications of APPARENT liability. Like I said above, if you don't like it take it to the judge. Same as a speeding ticket. You still missed the issue: You get an NAL because you have been found guilty without a trial. You can appeal the ruling but only to the FCC, so you are basically appealing to the prosecution. If you refuse to pay the fine then your case is forwarded to the Treasury Department for collection; i.e, the only case you can bring before a judge is an issue of law regarding the DEBT -- NOT the violation that -resulted- in the debt. If someone uses a radio transmitter in violation of the law then by all means they should be held accountable. But the -means- by which that person is brought to justice by the FCC is unconstitutional and they know it. Anybody who disagrees with an FCC NAL can have their day in court and there is nothing the FCC can do to stop it. The FCC's use of the NAL precludes standing in any court. The only way you can challenge their laws is indirectly; i.e, habeus corpus, civil suit, temporary injunction, congressional intervention, etc, etc. The problem is that the people who would benefit the most from standing do not have the means to mount an indirect challenge. And -that's- how the FCC can prevent you from having your 'day in court'. EVERY person has the constitutional right to challenge ANY law. The problem is that the FCC has been very careful about preventing any such challenges. Ah no. Quite right -- you can't challenge the law unless you have standing, as I said before. For the violator it sure is. Unless you're a big corporation a private person doesn't stand much of a chance when the FCC has the wealth of the Federal Treasury behind it to spend on legal proceddings. I can asure you their legal budget is bigger that your's or mine. Exactly! And that's why any fine against a large company by the FCC will never be large enough to justify any such challenge -- they will simply write it off as an expense, just like Twisty explained. That is an economic decision by the company. It's a tactic used by the FCC based on the expected economic decision by the company. So far it has worked well. There is nothing that prevents them from pursuing the issue in court if the money is not a concern. But money -is- a concern, as you have already stated. snip The Supreme Court picks and chooses which cases it wants to hear based on how widely it would affect the law of the land. That's naive. Every other agency of the government operates under the table to some extent. What makes you think the FCC is any different? snip See this link http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2.../47cfr0.11.pdf Look under section 0.13. You have to read between the lines, but I think you'll get the drift. The chairmen can exert influence over what the commission does in an indirect manner. And that was all I implied by my prior statement. The Office of the Inspector General is not the Commission Chairman. And any commissioner can influence the commission in the way you stated. Anyway, when you get tired of reading -between- the lines try reading the lines as explicitly written regarding the job of Chairman: http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...r/47cfr0.3.htm http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...47cfr0.211.htm snip If you read through the relevent sections of Part 0 (linked above) you will see that the chairman is nothing more than a representative and a facilitator. He is -not- the controlling force of the FCC. If he was then it wouldn't be called a "commission". So why are the lobbyists always trying to get the chairman's era? If he doesn't matter why are they wasting their time with him? As you should know what is said on paper, how it should work, may not always match how it really gets done. The lobbyists go after the commissioners just as much as the chairman, maybe even more so. You just don't hear about it on the news. snip I've read reports where the interference was so bad that in one or more foreign countries have pulled the plug completely on BPL. In reported case here in the USA about reported interference the BPL provider was unable to resolve the problems even after months of tweaking the system. There is a new technology on the horizon that may just obsolete BPL anyway, the 802.16 for a wireless MAN (Metropolitan Area Network). Even government corruption has it's limits. snip You missed -my- point: ham radio is none of my business. In reality it is to a degree. It isn't called a "service" for nothing you know. One of the primary reasons for the existence of Ham Radio is to provide emergency communications. This is something that affects Hams and non Hams alike. Just ask Keith here on the group. That's one main reason why he got his Ham ticket, and I'm sure he has put it to good use the last several months. Well, I've been in the middle of at least three situations that should have been ideal examples of what you describe: Mt. StHelens; hurricane Gloria; and Spokane's ice storm of '96. But in all of those emergency situations, ham radio activity consisted mostly of small-talk and QRM. And in all three cases the bulk of non-PSP emergency communication was done by CB radio. After listening to the ham bands for 30 years I can say with great confidence that ham radio sucks when it comes to those types of situations. Time and time again CB radio has proven itself to be the communications backbone when landlines fail. I -am- a CBer, Gee, I didn't know that. ;-)) Some people in this newsgroup are -not- CBers, which is why I affirmed myself as one. and IMO you can stick a much bigger thorn in the FCC's ass if you pester your congressional rep. It happens. Evidently it doesn't happen enough. Yup. It still won't get anything accomplished, but at least you're forcing the FCC to answer to someone with some authority. Why do you think some of what is happening is happening? Maybe not enough to suit some people, but some progress is being made. All I see happening is the ARRL taking a step forward after being pushed back three steps. That's not progress, it's damage control. If there is one sure thing in life its change. Assuming things are going to stay the same just isn't reasonable. So if it's bad its going to get better. Or worse. And I made no assumption about things not changing, although sometimes change can be very slow. Since I have a poor track record as a prognosticator, I no longer make assumptions about the future except that it will come. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 03:01:05 -0800, Frank Gilliland
wrote in : snip The Supreme Court picks and chooses which cases it wants to hear based on how widely it would affect the law of the land. That's naive. Every other agency of the government operates under the table to some extent. What makes you think the FCC is any different? I should rephrase this: The Supreme Court only selects cases that are presented to it. Unless the outcome can be 'assured', the FCC prevents potentially hazardous cases from going that far up the ladder either by offering settlements (and/or kickbacks) that are too good to pass up, or by simply dropping the case. Those tactics are underhanded attempts to avoid an unfavorable ruling by the Supreme Court. Such a ruling could very possibly collapse the legal foundation of the FCC's operation. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
'keyclowns' prevail! | Policy |