Hello Frank:


Frank Gilliland wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:56:43 -0800, Jay in the Mojave
wrote in :


Hello Frank:

Hope you had a enjoyable Christmas.



I did, thanks. Did you have fun decorating the Joshua Tree?

Thats a big Bozo No No, we are not allowed to cut down the Joshua Tree's
and such. But some people do put lights on them. There is a commitee
that use to go around and count the darn tree's. New contruction is the
omnly way I seen them cut down and removed. I have a few tree's on my
property but there out of the way.

You might have a problem with the regulators. If more than one
alternator is used it's best to run the second from a 'slave'
regulator that's controlled by a 'master' on the first alternator. If
you don't then one alternator will pull the full load until the
voltage drops down to the regulated voltage of the second. The result
is "stepped" regulation and can be quite noisy.

Is this advice from experience?



Actually, yes.

Ok I have not heard of this noise but will keep an ear for it.



I have seen many alternators tied
together and not noticed any noise. When the load is applied to the
alternators is when they will be putting out the high currents, and
voltage regulators will be monitoring the out put of its alternator.

I know at times the alternator diodes shutting off will cause a noise,
that can be cured by a bypass capacitor on the alternators output terminal.



You probably didn't notice any noise because you were running AM and
the load drew down to the second alternator on key-up. Running SSB
would be a different story and your audio would include a 'clicking'
that followed the audio. But of course you wouldn't hear it anyway
because it happens when you are transmitting.

Anyway, stepped regulation is very hard on an alternator, causing
frequent surges through the field coil and regulator. They aren't
designed to work like that.

I have to agree with that. The 120 amp alternator I had on my put and
park mini truck feed the vehicles system and of course charged the
battery. I used a 4 pill Amp that had wild differances in current draw
from almost nothing to a full on 80 amp draw. This was noticable when
the engine was running at around 3000 RPMs going down the highway while
talking SSB. It would end up stretching the single V belt that would
only last about 4 weeks. I came to have several spares belts and made up
a tool kit that would allow a fast change of the belt, as I got good at
it from experence. As I had changed many belts, I finnialy installed the
stock 65 amp alternator from just being sick and tired of having to
change the belt.


Maybe that's why Motorola designated their cheap CB amp transistors as
MRF454 and MRF455 -- to appeal to the 'big engine' mentality.

Yeah I am sure thats possible, but the nerd linger who designates the
numbers I am sure sets behind a desk and has his car serviced by normal
people.

I would have a number like MRF-HP/454CI-Inc. hehehehehhehe

Matched transistors would go by Balanced MRF-HP/454CI-Hipo Inc
Or even PT2M454-Hipo Inc (Pettle to the Metal) OH YEAH!

Jay in the Mojave

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:11:38 -0800, Jay in the Mojave
wrote in :

snip
Is this advice from experience?



Actually, yes.

Ok I have not heard of this noise but will keep an ear for it.


Even better, install two ammeters (one on each alternator) and watch
how they -don't- share the load equally.


snip
Maybe that's why Motorola designated their cheap CB amp transistors as
MRF454 and MRF455 -- to appeal to the 'big engine' mentality.

Yeah I am sure thats possible, but the nerd linger who designates the
numbers I am sure sets behind a desk and has his car serviced by normal
people.


What's 'normal'?


I would have a number like MRF-HP/454CI-Inc. hehehehehhehe

Matched transistors would go by Balanced MRF-HP/454CI-Hipo Inc
Or even PT2M454-Hipo Inc (Pettle to the Metal) OH YEAH!


So if the amp has a cooling then it's got a 'blower'? Doesn't matter
since it probably wouldn't pass the emissions inspection. And the
bubble really bursts when you realize that it takes 3kW to equal the
power of a lawnmower engine. So throttle up that moped, Jay -- you be
ridin' with the big boys!

Hello Frank:

This maybe a little long winded but I learned something neat here.

That's a good call having separate amp meters off each alternator.
I am sure one alternator will want to source most of the current, but
thats ok, as the second alternator will have to kick in when the load is
applied. When the load goes nutz-oid wanting a Bazillion amps I am sure
the output current will be close to equal, if the voltage regulators are
set close to each other.

While working as a marine technican/electrican for several years, in Los
Angles I was called to a boat having alternator problems. I talked with
the boat owner and came prepared with a new marine grade alternator and
regulator.

The boat had two engines and each engine had 2 alternators. As the
electrical system needed a redundant back up everything as it did
research and commercial work out at sea for long periods of time. Time
is money and money is time stuff here.

The owner said that when the Engine #1 auxiliary alternator was placed
on line the running voltage did not increase as with the normal main
alternator did. Same for #2 Engine.

Well as the engines where running the main alternator was carrying the
load and you could not see the auxiliary alternator come on line by just
looking at the systems 24 volt system voltage. After pulling off the
field wire from the main alternator, we verified the auxiliary
alternator was really working putting out the needed current to run the
boats 24 volt electrical system. The auxiliary alternators where placed
on line by a lever that over centered and locked into place tightening
the belt that turned the alternator pulley, pretty neat!

Ok so everything was working as we verified the alternators, batteries,
and had to replace a few battery connections. No big deal.

The owner asked me to check out the electrical system #1 and #2 cross
over operation.

The boat or really a ship had to have two of everything, Two: HF Radios,
VHF Radios, Lightening Systems, Engine Indicating Meters and Indicator
Clusters, CB Radios, and of course all of the Nav Electronics like
Radars, ADF, Loran, Depth Finder, Automatic Pilot, and bunches of other
stuff. Ok so every thing ran off the 24 volt system #1 or #2.

But they didn't know how the electrical system #1 and #2 crossed over or
ran the other system when one of the engines was shut down, and wanted
to know how to operate and test it out. I didn't know either as I
couldn't find a cross over contactor relay any where.

After looking over the ships wiring diagram, I saw the cross over
contactor or relay, it had to be turned on (by a switch in the wheel
house) to allow the two electrical systems to be tied together for high
current operation.

But the neat thing that I found was that the two electrical system where
tied together thru a calculated resistance, in this case a short length
of 8 gauge steel wire that would only allow so much current to flow
between the two electrical systems. This allowed the system #1 to be up
and running and be able to run a few things on system #2, and charge the
system #2 batteries, and visa versa. This also allowed the main system
running to not be pulled down by a short in the other system.

The electrical control panel in the wheel house showed all the
alternator voltages and currents. You where able to select which of the
3 battery sets to start the engines, pretty neat. They had a small 4
cyclender gas engine that ran again two alternators and a hydraulic pump
for a auxiliary back up. And a gas powered Honda Generator mounted just
aft of the wheel house to supply 12, 24VDC, and 115 VAC for a back up
back up. Neat stuff.

So a calculated resistance coupled connection between two alternators
would allow the alternators to run separated systems and allow say a
second alternator to back up the other system while not loading it
down. Food for thought.

Jay in the Mojave


Frank Gilliland wrote:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:11:38 -0800, Jay in the Mojave
wrote in :

snip

Is this advice from experience?



Actually, yes.

Ok I have not heard of this noise but will keep an ear for it.



Even better, install two ammeters (one on each alternator) and watch
how they -don't- share the load equally.


snip

Maybe that's why Motorola designated their cheap CB amp transistors as
MRF454 and MRF455 -- to appeal to the 'big engine' mentality.

Yeah I am sure thats possible, but the nerd linger who designates the
numbers I am sure sets behind a desk and has his car serviced by normal
people.



What's 'normal'?



I would have a number like MRF-HP/454CI-Inc. hehehehehhehe

Matched transistors would go by Balanced MRF-HP/454CI-Hipo Inc
Or even PT2M454-Hipo Inc (Pettle to the Metal) OH YEAH!



So if the amp has a cooling then it's got a 'blower'? Doesn't matter
since it probably wouldn't pass the emissions inspection. And the
bubble really bursts when you realize that it takes 3kW to equal the
power of a lawnmower engine. So throttle up that moped, Jay -- you be
ridin' with the big boys!

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:50:36 -0800, Jay in the Mojave
wrote in :

snip
So a calculated resistance coupled connection between two alternators
would allow the alternators to run separated systems and allow say a
second alternator to back up the other system while not loading it
down. Food for thought.


Current equalizing resistors is another way to do it. It's common
practice in SS audio amps to use emitter resistors to equalize the
currents between parallel transistors. But I would hesitate using them
with modern alternators because I don't know how it would screw with
the regulators -- some have a local sense line and others have a
remote sense line -- a resistor in the load might send the regulator
into seizures.

Jay in the Mojave wrote:
The boat had two engines and each engine had 2 alternators.

Must of had one of those big radios. Did he have an I 10-K on it too?

Hello Stevo:

Yeah there is a few Interceptor 10K Antennas out there as marine
antennas. The fishermen call the CB the Mickey Mouse, but with a good
antenna can make real long contact distances. So some of then have
gotten ham license and talk on 10 meters as it is empty most of the time.
I have gotten reports back on 50 to 60 miles over the water. These guys
are up on 29 MHz simplex FM.

Jay in the Mojave

Steveo wrote:
Jay in the Mojave wrote:

The boat had two engines and each engine had 2 alternators.


Must of had one of those big radios. Did he have an I 10-K on it too?

That's a fairly odious boat antenna..could you run it without the ground
plane radials, and use the water for a counter-poise? That would sure
lighten the friggin' wind load a bit.

I was only ribbing ya a bit, Jay. I've been real happy with mine. (not on
my boat)


Jay in the Mojave wrote:
Hello Stevo:

Yeah there is a few Interceptor 10K Antennas out there as marine
antennas. The fishermen call the CB the Mickey Mouse, but with a good
antenna can make real long contact distances. So some of then have
gotten ham license and talk on 10 meters as it is empty most of the time.
I have gotten reports back on 50 to 60 miles over the water. These guys
are up on 29 MHz simplex FM.

Jay in the Mojave

Steveo wrote:
Jay in the Mojave wrote:

The boat had two engines and each engine had 2 alternators.


Must of had one of those big radios. Did he have an I 10-K on it too?