Even if the limits are raised, the rules will still not permit them to
interfere with licensed services such as commercial broadcasting and amateur
radio even if their emissions are within limits. They would have to change
that provision also.

You think they wouldn't change it?? How much commerical
broadcasting goes on between 2-80 MHz? Is it a coincidence
that the AM band stops just below 2 MHz and the FM one starts
just above 80 MHz?

Just imagine all the world's DXers being crowded into the
160m band - yikes!

Derek aa5bt

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:10:22 +0000 (UTC),
(Derek Wills) wrote (with possible editing):

I know the proposed BPL system uses frequencies from 2-80 MHz
and I belive it uses spread spectrum. Does it have to use
every possible freq in that range or could it skip the ham
bands if we kick up enough fuss?

It seems pretty clear to me that it will happen - 150,000 hams
are outnumbered by more than 100:1 by those who want broadband
delivered to the doorstep.

Not only do I think it will happen, but I also expect the RFI
levels to be "adjusted" so as to allow more pollution - hey,
it works for greenhouse gas and power plants and......

Derek aa5bt

Perhaps I'm just stupid, but the ultimate solution to Broadband, Cable
TV, Telephony, etc. is FTTH (Fiber to the Home). Providing a 100 meg
connection is almost trivial. No radio interference at all. It just
takes someone willing to bite the bullet!

FWIW, probably not much, a few of us up here in northern NH are
spearheading an effort to do a 3 county build. Preliminary cost
estimates are around $32 million. This is being done now in 3
counties around Plattsburgh, NY.

--

73,
Larry W1HJF
rapp at lmr dot com

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:10:22 +0000 (UTC),
(Derek Wills) wrote (with possible editing):

I know the proposed BPL system uses frequencies from 2-80 MHz
and I belive it uses spread spectrum. Does it have to use
every possible freq in that range or could it skip the ham
bands if we kick up enough fuss?

It seems pretty clear to me that it will happen - 150,000 hams
are outnumbered by more than 100:1 by those who want broadband
delivered to the doorstep.

Not only do I think it will happen, but I also expect the RFI
levels to be "adjusted" so as to allow more pollution - hey,
it works for greenhouse gas and power plants and......

Derek aa5bt

Perhaps I'm just stupid, but the ultimate solution to Broadband, Cable
TV, Telephony, etc. is FTTH (Fiber to the Home). Providing a 100 meg
connection is almost trivial. No radio interference at all. It just
takes someone willing to bite the bullet!

FWIW, probably not much, a few of us up here in northern NH are
spearheading an effort to do a 3 county build. Preliminary cost
estimates are around $32 million. This is being done now in 3
counties around Plattsburgh, NY.

--

73,
Larry W1HJF
rapp at lmr dot com

Even if the limits are raised, the rules will still not permit them
to
interfere with licensed services such as commercial broadcasting and
amateur
radio even if their emissions are within limits. They would have to
change
that provision also.

I don't think you have a grasp of the problem. Consider the current
part 15
rules that are completely ignored by the manufacturers of cheap
electronics.
They just sell cheap junk and let us fight with our neighbors about
interference or RFI.
How many new hams do you know that have quit HF because of RFI
problems
with cheap telephones and other electronics?
The BPL providers will just push the problem off to their customers
and let
us fight with our neighbors. When they are forced to act, they'll find
ways
to stall and avoid fixing the problems as long as possible (just like
they
do with leaky insulators and bad grounds). Most hams will become
discouraged
and give-up on HF.

Imagine this scenario: Your neighbor gets a shiny new BPL internet
connection
and is dazzled by it's performance. You have serious interference from
his
connection. You complain. The Power Company contacts your neighbor and
says
'we're disconnecting you (and all your neighbors) because the HAM next
door
doesn't like the noise your internet connection makes on his radio'.
Guess who ends up the bad guy.
Steve

Even if the limits are raised, the rules will still not permit them
to
interfere with licensed services such as commercial broadcasting and
amateur
radio even if their emissions are within limits. They would have to
change
that provision also.

I don't think you have a grasp of the problem. Consider the current
part 15
rules that are completely ignored by the manufacturers of cheap
electronics.
They just sell cheap junk and let us fight with our neighbors about
interference or RFI.
How many new hams do you know that have quit HF because of RFI
problems
with cheap telephones and other electronics?
The BPL providers will just push the problem off to their customers
and let
us fight with our neighbors. When they are forced to act, they'll find
ways
to stall and avoid fixing the problems as long as possible (just like
they
do with leaky insulators and bad grounds). Most hams will become
discouraged
and give-up on HF.

Imagine this scenario: Your neighbor gets a shiny new BPL internet
connection
and is dazzled by it's performance. You have serious interference from
his
connection. You complain. The Power Company contacts your neighbor and
says
'we're disconnecting you (and all your neighbors) because the HAM next
door
doesn't like the noise your internet connection makes on his radio'.
Guess who ends up the bad guy.
Steve

"Dee D. Flint" said :

Keep in mind that the non-ham frequencies are also used by somebody
(government, commercial interests, etc.). So skipping around the ham
frequencies doesn't really solve the problem. Some one is going to be
interfered with.

Might also be interesting in aviation circles as well...75 MHz
markers are still in use as far as I know...usually on criticl ILS
approaches (Not IFR rated-yet-but I remember this from my theory
way-back-when).


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

"Dee D. Flint" said :

Keep in mind that the non-ham frequencies are also used by somebody
(government, commercial interests, etc.). So skipping around the ham
frequencies doesn't really solve the problem. Some one is going to be
interfered with.

Might also be interesting in aviation circles as well...75 MHz
markers are still in use as far as I know...usually on criticl ILS
approaches (Not IFR rated-yet-but I remember this from my theory
way-back-when).


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

"Derek Wills" wrote in message
...
I know the proposed BPL system uses frequencies from 2-80 MHz
and I belive it uses spread spectrum.

At the moment, it does not appear that they are using the entire
2-80 MHz, at least in Emmaus, PA ... but they could expand.

Does it have to use
every possible freq in that range or could it skip the ham
bands if we kick up enough fuss?

There is still the issue of intermod, harmonics, etc. And, simply
avoiding the ham bands won't protect the other users of HF.
NTIA and its USG "clients" will, hopefully, be one of our strongest
allies ... we should not take a "protect us and the heck with everyone
else" approach ... to do so would dillute our potential support.

It seems pretty clear to me that it will happen - 150,000 hams
are outnumbered by more than 100:1 by those who want broadband
delivered to the doorstep.

Not only do I think it will happen, but I also expect the RFI
levels to be "adjusted" so as to allow more pollution - hey,
it works for greenhouse gas and power plants and......

Clearly, BPL proponents want to be allowed to use higher levels.
That, of course, will only make the interference that much worse
than it already is (which is MORE than bad enough - horrible, in
fact).

73,
Carl - wk3c

"Derek Wills" wrote in message
...
I know the proposed BPL system uses frequencies from 2-80 MHz
and I belive it uses spread spectrum.

At the moment, it does not appear that they are using the entire
2-80 MHz, at least in Emmaus, PA ... but they could expand.

Does it have to use
every possible freq in that range or could it skip the ham
bands if we kick up enough fuss?

There is still the issue of intermod, harmonics, etc. And, simply
avoiding the ham bands won't protect the other users of HF.
NTIA and its USG "clients" will, hopefully, be one of our strongest
allies ... we should not take a "protect us and the heck with everyone
else" approach ... to do so would dillute our potential support.

It seems pretty clear to me that it will happen - 150,000 hams
are outnumbered by more than 100:1 by those who want broadband
delivered to the doorstep.

Not only do I think it will happen, but I also expect the RFI
levels to be "adjusted" so as to allow more pollution - hey,
it works for greenhouse gas and power plants and......

Clearly, BPL proponents want to be allowed to use higher levels.
That, of course, will only make the interference that much worse
than it already is (which is MORE than bad enough - horrible, in
fact).

73,
Carl - wk3c

avoiding the ham bands won't protect the other users of HF.
NTIA and its USG "clients" will, hopefully, be one of our strongest
allies ... we should not take a "protect us and the heck with everyone
else" approach ... to do so would dillute our potential support.

I saw a report yesterday to the effect that some AM stations
were being wiped out by BPL noise. The number of people
needing their daily fix of Dr Laura and Rush PooBah easily
outnumber the ARRL membership, so this is good news for us.

Derek aa5bt