"Incognito" said :

Well here are 14 well run DXpeditions -- you work em ???
URL: http://www.425dxn.org/trophy_2003/

Worked a good number of them; 8 or 9, I think. I can't hear southeast
Asia from here, so I couldn't get Pratas, Myanmar or Cocos-Keeling.
Never got through to 3C0V and was on business in the UK while Mali was
happening. Of the rest, I won't work an operation on bands/modes I
already have confirmed, so I sat out a few of those (Tunisia and
Marquesas come to mind).

I don't agree with the positioning of a few of them on that list, and
I certainly would not have ranked 3C0V that high, nor TO4E, nor
VP6DIA, though they all deserved to be on that list if for nothing
else going to entities that were desperately needed. Points for effort
and all that.

ST0RY was pretty good from what I remember, but I have Sudan on 10, 15
and 20, the only bands I could have gotten them on. Never heard them
on 12 or 17, though I was trying.

From my personal experience, I would have ranked AH3D highest. They
were absolutely first-rate. They were well-ordered with a good signal
and even when it was a madhouse for the first few days, they always
ran a good crisp-clean operation. I think it took me 2 days to get
through for the first time, and I got them on three bands, total.
Understand, of course, that the 425 list is Italian/EU centric, and I
wonder how well they were able to get a signal from Johnston into the
EU.

I like any operation that has worked through their piles so quickly
that in the waning days they're essentially begging.


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

Peter Dougherty wrote:


I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up
a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of
their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc,
that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as
want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such
as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes,
focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these
goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from
me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I
only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and
I'm not in the EU.

However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective
is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in
ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree
of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation
stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they
sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a
valid complaint.

No, you wouldn't. The "objectives" are subjective to begin with, and
even though most of them encompass "working as many as possible", this
typically means within the ability, capacity, moods and limitations of
the operators. Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the
level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that
all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be
interested. I know I wouldn't; hell, collecting napkins would be more
exciting.
Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so
what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative
who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work. We have a choice
of waiting our turn or walking away. We certainly don't have a right to
complain on the air, jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any
similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers

Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity.

As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and
they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of
yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but
why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy
dx-ped.

I'm not saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they
should be
experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know
how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most
important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10
top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but
well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis.

I'll take both and work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other
time. Where's the urgency?

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk
of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a
hobby, after all. Let me just say that I personally spend an
disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have
a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it
seriously.

In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of
these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet
thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be
conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the
operation.

And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time
dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in
English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases.
If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests
for 160m, RTTY, QSL info, listening for "my friend", etc.

To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over
the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in
a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being
the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more
often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$
rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be
obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it
with reasonable clarity.

I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just
me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English
skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit.

Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it,
other than the free Internet steam venting? You talk about such
operations causing "more ill-will than goodwill". I say, good for them
and the more the better. Dxing is supposed to be a game of chance,
patience and skills, not an instant gratification for the gimme
generation. What about rare DXCC entities with native ops? Should they
all follow our demand for first class skills or risk being dismissed as
"bad op", "lid", "deaf", "horrible", "idiot", "$$$", etc. (all of these
courtesy of the Cluster police).

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World

Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything
about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+
hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible.

I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal
instead, so this is a moot point.

by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.

Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals
with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or
whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be
too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation.

What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be
serious? Remember again that this is not a business...

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested
several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or
cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX
toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their
part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of
New Bands out of their operation.

Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal
system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped. Alternatively, present
a valid case for the compensation that a dx-ped should be legally
obligated to, should they fail to QSO the plaintiffs who invested their
time and energy in this endeavor. Can you hear yourself?

If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just
can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or
work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear
the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9
operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I
didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the
limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals
was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them.
Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no
inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc.

And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or
"poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct? What makes you think
anyone owes you a QSO?

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.

There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one
you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and
hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and
outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it
mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a
living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many
people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be
the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a
marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes
phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation.

You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of
perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become.

It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these
points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that
somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take
heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of
thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts.
If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine.
C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get
through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation.

And so it won't. Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the
dx-peds be? I, for example, believe that all people should respect each
others' rights without exceptions, but I won't act surprised and
slighted when I encounter racist bigots and religious lunatics - I'll
try to reason with them or cross to the other side of the street.

There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.


I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will
ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier
thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the
bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are
Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the
current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO
within those accepted parameters.

If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve
some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple
and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with
which I agree to a point.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's
just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO*
want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or
against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be
grateful for the same chance.

You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at
your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a
mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power.

Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the
ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles
radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well,
I'll have my 200 footer next year.

73 ... WA7AA


You want fries with that?

Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you.

Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all
discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew?




--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

Peter Dougherty wrote:


I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up
a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of
their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc,
that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as
want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such
as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes,
focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these
goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from
me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I
only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and
I'm not in the EU.

However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective
is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in
ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree
of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation
stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they
sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a
valid complaint.

No, you wouldn't. The "objectives" are subjective to begin with, and
even though most of them encompass "working as many as possible", this
typically means within the ability, capacity, moods and limitations of
the operators. Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the
level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that
all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be
interested. I know I wouldn't; hell, collecting napkins would be more
exciting.
Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so
what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative
who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work. We have a choice
of waiting our turn or walking away. We certainly don't have a right to
complain on the air, jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any
similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers

Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity.

As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and
they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of
yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but
why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy
dx-ped.

I'm not saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they
should be
experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know
how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most
important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10
top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but
well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis.

I'll take both and work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other
time. Where's the urgency?

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk
of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a
hobby, after all. Let me just say that I personally spend an
disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have
a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it
seriously.

In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of
these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet
thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be
conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the
operation.

And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time
dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in
English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases.
If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests
for 160m, RTTY, QSL info, listening for "my friend", etc.

To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over
the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in
a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being
the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more
often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$
rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be
obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it
with reasonable clarity.

I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just
me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English
skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit.

Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it,
other than the free Internet steam venting? You talk about such
operations causing "more ill-will than goodwill". I say, good for them
and the more the better. Dxing is supposed to be a game of chance,
patience and skills, not an instant gratification for the gimme
generation. What about rare DXCC entities with native ops? Should they
all follow our demand for first class skills or risk being dismissed as
"bad op", "lid", "deaf", "horrible", "idiot", "$$$", etc. (all of these
courtesy of the Cluster police).

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World

Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything
about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+
hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible.

I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal
instead, so this is a moot point.

by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.

Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals
with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or
whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be
too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation.

What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be
serious? Remember again that this is not a business...

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested
several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or
cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX
toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their
part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of
New Bands out of their operation.

Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal
system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped. Alternatively, present
a valid case for the compensation that a dx-ped should be legally
obligated to, should they fail to QSO the plaintiffs who invested their
time and energy in this endeavor. Can you hear yourself?

If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just
can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or
work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear
the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9
operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I
didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the
limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals
was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them.
Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no
inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc.

And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or
"poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct? What makes you think
anyone owes you a QSO?

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.

There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one
you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and
hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and
outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it
mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a
living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many
people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be
the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a
marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes
phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation.

You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of
perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become.

It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these
points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that
somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take
heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of
thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts.
If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine.
C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get
through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation.

And so it won't. Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the
dx-peds be? I, for example, believe that all people should respect each
others' rights without exceptions, but I won't act surprised and
slighted when I encounter racist bigots and religious lunatics - I'll
try to reason with them or cross to the other side of the street.

There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.


I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will
ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier
thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the
bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are
Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the
current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO
within those accepted parameters.

If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve
some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple
and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with
which I agree to a point.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's
just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO*
want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or
against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be
grateful for the same chance.

You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at
your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a
mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power.

Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the
ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles
radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well,
I'll have my 200 footer next year.

73 ... WA7AA


You want fries with that?

Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you.

Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all
discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew?




--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

Zoran Brlecic said :

Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the
level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that
all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be
interested.

I'm not saying we should always have 10 or 15 major operations going
at any one time, but I am asking that in the future, when DXpedition
planners are planning something big to an entity only up every decade
or more, that they please put some of their energy into making a
schedule that will permit NA, EU and JA (the three principal targets
of any major operation) a good chance to work them on every possible
band they operate on. Sometimes it's impossible (never in darkness at
the same time as a target, MUF well below 24 MHz, etc), and that's the
way it goes, but if it's possible, please try to plan the best times,
and keep to those objectives.

Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so
what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative
who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work.

Not saying it should be a rule or regulation; It's mrerely a plea from
a somewhat latecomer to the world of DXing (antenna restrictions over
the last 22 years). I had a pretty good total in Canada when I lived
there, but now I'm living in the US, so I had to start everything over
when I got my US call in 2002.

We certainly don't have a right to complain on the air,
If we're not QRMing them (or anybody else), yes we do. Wonderful
thing, that first amendment.

jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any
similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently.

Agreed.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers

Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity.

As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and
they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of
yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but
why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy
dx-ped.

Then you must be in ham-heaven with some of this current crop, and may
you enjoy your challenges to the fullest degree possible. My
steeeenking opeeenion is that I'd rather see better ops at the pointy
ends of the pileup.

...work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other time. Where's the urgency?

We're at the beginning of the decline of cycle 23. We have *maybe*
12-18 months of good or even marginal propagation left before a long,
quiet five-to-six year hiatus. While I hope I'm still around and in
good health when cycle 24 kicks up, I'd rather get some rare entities
now if I can. There are also plenty of older hams who may not see
cycle 24, and for their sakes, I hope they can work these rare
entities while they can.

You tell me...what was the rush to work the P5? It's entirely likely
we'll never see another P5 in many of our lifetimes. I came into the
game too late to get KP1 or KP5 -- unless there's a complete change of
heart in Washington (unlikely), those entities are off-limits forever.
You never know if a politically unstable entity that today permits (or
tolerates) amateur radio may become more entrenched and bans it
outright. I'm not picking one example here, rather I'm speaking
metaphorically. However, I'd venture to say, we won't see a 3C0
operation again for a very long time

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk
of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a
hobby, after all.

It's a hobby I take very seriously, yes. For a DXpedition leader, it
IS a job in the sense that they're managing large sums of money, human
resources, handling interesting global logistical problems that would
give most corporate shipping managers fits, fundraising, etc, etc.

Let me just say that I personally spend an
disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have
a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it
seriously.

I'm somewhat competitive in nature and I enjoy taking DX seriously. If
I ever can field a good contest station, or be part of a good contest
group easily from where I'm located, I'll take that equally seriously.

And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time
dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in
English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases.
If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests
for 160m, RTTY, QSL info

The need for good language skills comes from the need to control
pileups. Any numbnuts can say fivenineqrz, but it helps if they can
understand the frequently silly phonetics I've heard and all the
nonsense that I'm sure they have to put up with. It IS a legitimate
question to ask if they're going to show up on a different band or
mode if you happen to need them on it and aren't sure if they're able
to help.

listening for "my friend", etc.
Dont get me started on that one...This is one of my BIGGEST pet
peeves. Gaaah.

I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just
me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English
skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit.

There's a difference between the two types of operation, although they
are becomming increasingly similar. At the very least, though, they
have to be able to clearly understand the calling stations.

Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it,
other than the free Internet steam venting?

Well, I'll admit to some of that being the case. What I "propose" is
just this -- I'm hoping some future DXpeditioners reading this thread
will please take heed of the points that have been made. Maybe, just
*maybe* ONE future DXpeditioner will indeed take these points to heart
and will field a better operation as a result.

I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal
instead, so this is a moot point.

They may not plan to have a crappy signal, but they often *do* have
just that -- and not just because propagation is bad. This can be
because they don't take along reliable amps, generators, spare
parts/tubes or any combination of these. Some use compromised antennas
for any number of reasons that perhaps more planning--or
fundraising--could solve.

Maybe some don't want to trudge equipment up to a good vantage point
of the QTH and just "make do" with a poorer solution. Who knows why.
Some times it can't be helped. Some times they can get a good signal
to EU and JA, but nothing to the US (or some combination of these
factors). So be it. What I'm taking issue with is those operations
that *can* help it, just choose not to, or who *could* be better but
haven't taken enough things into considerations.

What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be
serious?

A serious operation is something that costs at least fifty to a
hundred grand, takes months to plan and execute and goes to a
highly-desired entity. If the members who do this don't approach the
venture with some business savvy, they're setting themselves up for
failure to begin with, in my opinion.

Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal
system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped.

Please. Don't be ridiculous about it. I don't want anything in amateur
radio operations to be "guaranteed," except perhaps that my equipment
won't short out and electrocute me when I plug it in, and that it will
be reparired free if it's defective and I bought it new. Out of a
DXpedition, I simply want a fair shot at possibly making a contact.
True, nothing in the rules, spoken or non, says anybody HAS to do
this, but I'm asking operations in the fututre to *please* be
considerate and play as fairly as possible by putting out a good
signal, working split, not taking out of turn callers, etc, etc, etc.
The don't HAVE to, but I think we all can agree that it would be nice
if they WOULD.

And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or
"poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct?
Poor condx are beyond anybody's ability to overcome. Mother Nature
holds all the cards here. Mother nature, on the other hand, doesn't
sit and work fat EU signals all day long when W6s and W7s are
screaming their lungs off on those days there's no propagation to JA.

What makes you think anyone owes you a QSO?
Nobody. See above.

You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of
perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become.
In that case, I'll take banal, thanks g. You go enjoy your napkin
collection; I'll happily work as many new ones as propagation, my
equipment and time allows.

Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the dx-peds be?
We should all strive to be the best and do the best that we can. I
live my life with that aim every day. I may not always succeed, but I
always strive to be the best that I can be at whatever. I appreciate
those who run operations as well as possible.

If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve
some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple
and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with
which I agree to a point.

Absolutely, and once we can afford to move from our rented apartment
to a house where I can set up what I want, I'll do just that. But even
if I can work the worst, ill-planned, crappily-executed DXpedition and
get Upper Dipthong confirmed on all bands and modes, that won't make
the operation any better, and I'll still not have a lot of kind words
to say about it. It's not about whether *I* can work them or not. It's
about how good a chance the average station has, and how well the
operators take into consideration the needs of their audience.


Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the
ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles
radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well,
I'll have my 200 footer next year.

Best of luck in doing so. You're also extremely fortunate to be living
on the west coast, however, where you have a *much* greater shot at
working the rare Asian and south pacific entities that are never even
a blip on my S-meter. Granted, I have an advantage on 80M, but I think
I'd rather have west-coast DX than east. Unfortunately, my Real Life
is on the east coast. sigh.

Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all
discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew?

Freedom Fries. Puh-leeze. They were actually invented in Belgium, but
still. My wife was born in Paris; I was born in Montreal. You'll never
hear any French bashing from this ham, despite how much I occasionally
disagree with the governments of those places.


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

Zoran Brlecic said :

Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the
level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that
all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be
interested.

I'm not saying we should always have 10 or 15 major operations going
at any one time, but I am asking that in the future, when DXpedition
planners are planning something big to an entity only up every decade
or more, that they please put some of their energy into making a
schedule that will permit NA, EU and JA (the three principal targets
of any major operation) a good chance to work them on every possible
band they operate on. Sometimes it's impossible (never in darkness at
the same time as a target, MUF well below 24 MHz, etc), and that's the
way it goes, but if it's possible, please try to plan the best times,
and keep to those objectives.

Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so
what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative
who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work.

Not saying it should be a rule or regulation; It's mrerely a plea from
a somewhat latecomer to the world of DXing (antenna restrictions over
the last 22 years). I had a pretty good total in Canada when I lived
there, but now I'm living in the US, so I had to start everything over
when I got my US call in 2002.

We certainly don't have a right to complain on the air,
If we're not QRMing them (or anybody else), yes we do. Wonderful
thing, that first amendment.

jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any
similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently.

Agreed.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers

Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity.

As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and
they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of
yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but
why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy
dx-ped.

Then you must be in ham-heaven with some of this current crop, and may
you enjoy your challenges to the fullest degree possible. My
steeeenking opeeenion is that I'd rather see better ops at the pointy
ends of the pileup.

...work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other time. Where's the urgency?

We're at the beginning of the decline of cycle 23. We have *maybe*
12-18 months of good or even marginal propagation left before a long,
quiet five-to-six year hiatus. While I hope I'm still around and in
good health when cycle 24 kicks up, I'd rather get some rare entities
now if I can. There are also plenty of older hams who may not see
cycle 24, and for their sakes, I hope they can work these rare
entities while they can.

You tell me...what was the rush to work the P5? It's entirely likely
we'll never see another P5 in many of our lifetimes. I came into the
game too late to get KP1 or KP5 -- unless there's a complete change of
heart in Washington (unlikely), those entities are off-limits forever.
You never know if a politically unstable entity that today permits (or
tolerates) amateur radio may become more entrenched and bans it
outright. I'm not picking one example here, rather I'm speaking
metaphorically. However, I'd venture to say, we won't see a 3C0
operation again for a very long time

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk
of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a
hobby, after all.

It's a hobby I take very seriously, yes. For a DXpedition leader, it
IS a job in the sense that they're managing large sums of money, human
resources, handling interesting global logistical problems that would
give most corporate shipping managers fits, fundraising, etc, etc.

Let me just say that I personally spend an
disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have
a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it
seriously.

I'm somewhat competitive in nature and I enjoy taking DX seriously. If
I ever can field a good contest station, or be part of a good contest
group easily from where I'm located, I'll take that equally seriously.

And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time
dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in
English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases.
If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests
for 160m, RTTY, QSL info

The need for good language skills comes from the need to control
pileups. Any numbnuts can say fivenineqrz, but it helps if they can
understand the frequently silly phonetics I've heard and all the
nonsense that I'm sure they have to put up with. It IS a legitimate
question to ask if they're going to show up on a different band or
mode if you happen to need them on it and aren't sure if they're able
to help.

listening for "my friend", etc.
Dont get me started on that one...This is one of my BIGGEST pet
peeves. Gaaah.

I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just
me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English
skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit.

There's a difference between the two types of operation, although they
are becomming increasingly similar. At the very least, though, they
have to be able to clearly understand the calling stations.

Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it,
other than the free Internet steam venting?

Well, I'll admit to some of that being the case. What I "propose" is
just this -- I'm hoping some future DXpeditioners reading this thread
will please take heed of the points that have been made. Maybe, just
*maybe* ONE future DXpeditioner will indeed take these points to heart
and will field a better operation as a result.

I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal
instead, so this is a moot point.

They may not plan to have a crappy signal, but they often *do* have
just that -- and not just because propagation is bad. This can be
because they don't take along reliable amps, generators, spare
parts/tubes or any combination of these. Some use compromised antennas
for any number of reasons that perhaps more planning--or
fundraising--could solve.

Maybe some don't want to trudge equipment up to a good vantage point
of the QTH and just "make do" with a poorer solution. Who knows why.
Some times it can't be helped. Some times they can get a good signal
to EU and JA, but nothing to the US (or some combination of these
factors). So be it. What I'm taking issue with is those operations
that *can* help it, just choose not to, or who *could* be better but
haven't taken enough things into considerations.

What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be
serious?

A serious operation is something that costs at least fifty to a
hundred grand, takes months to plan and execute and goes to a
highly-desired entity. If the members who do this don't approach the
venture with some business savvy, they're setting themselves up for
failure to begin with, in my opinion.

Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal
system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped.

Please. Don't be ridiculous about it. I don't want anything in amateur
radio operations to be "guaranteed," except perhaps that my equipment
won't short out and electrocute me when I plug it in, and that it will
be reparired free if it's defective and I bought it new. Out of a
DXpedition, I simply want a fair shot at possibly making a contact.
True, nothing in the rules, spoken or non, says anybody HAS to do
this, but I'm asking operations in the fututre to *please* be
considerate and play as fairly as possible by putting out a good
signal, working split, not taking out of turn callers, etc, etc, etc.
The don't HAVE to, but I think we all can agree that it would be nice
if they WOULD.

And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or
"poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct?
Poor condx are beyond anybody's ability to overcome. Mother Nature
holds all the cards here. Mother nature, on the other hand, doesn't
sit and work fat EU signals all day long when W6s and W7s are
screaming their lungs off on those days there's no propagation to JA.

What makes you think anyone owes you a QSO?
Nobody. See above.

You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of
perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become.
In that case, I'll take banal, thanks g. You go enjoy your napkin
collection; I'll happily work as many new ones as propagation, my
equipment and time allows.

Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the dx-peds be?
We should all strive to be the best and do the best that we can. I
live my life with that aim every day. I may not always succeed, but I
always strive to be the best that I can be at whatever. I appreciate
those who run operations as well as possible.

If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve
some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple
and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with
which I agree to a point.

Absolutely, and once we can afford to move from our rented apartment
to a house where I can set up what I want, I'll do just that. But even
if I can work the worst, ill-planned, crappily-executed DXpedition and
get Upper Dipthong confirmed on all bands and modes, that won't make
the operation any better, and I'll still not have a lot of kind words
to say about it. It's not about whether *I* can work them or not. It's
about how good a chance the average station has, and how well the
operators take into consideration the needs of their audience.


Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the
ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles
radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well,
I'll have my 200 footer next year.

Best of luck in doing so. You're also extremely fortunate to be living
on the west coast, however, where you have a *much* greater shot at
working the rare Asian and south pacific entities that are never even
a blip on my S-meter. Granted, I have an advantage on 80M, but I think
I'd rather have west-coast DX than east. Unfortunately, my Real Life
is on the east coast. sigh.

Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all
discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew?

Freedom Fries. Puh-leeze. They were actually invented in Belgium, but
still. My wife was born in Paris; I was born in Montreal. You'll never
hear any French bashing from this ham, despite how much I occasionally
disagree with the governments of those places.


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

Peter Dougherty wrote:

Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the
ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles
radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well,
I'll have my 200 footer next year.

Best of luck in doing so. You're also extremely fortunate to be living
on the west coast, however, where you have a *much* greater shot at
working the rare Asian and south pacific entities that are never even
a blip on my S-meter. Granted, I have an advantage on 80M, but I think
I'd rather have west-coast DX than east. Unfortunately, my Real Life
is on the east coast. sigh.

Uhm... you might want to reconsider this one. I also lived in Canada
(VA3GW) for eight years, so I know first hand the difference in
propagation. Of course, every part of the world has condx somewhere, but
at least on the East Coast you have free access to Europe almost all the
time, while EU signals are ancient history here on 10-15m, and on 17 and
lower they suffer from the auroral path attenuation, i.e. nothing heard.
Maybe no big deal for casual dxing, but there is no way in hell anyone
from the left coast ever wins any contest over the East Coasters. Right
now, there are days when I literally hear nothing on the bands (granted,
I only monitor 17m and up on account of the pathetic wire that passes
off as an antenna). Those napkins are starting to look good.

I like the weather much more than VE3, though...

Go, Raptors.

73 ... Zoran WA7AA






--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

Peter Dougherty wrote:

Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the
ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles
radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well,
I'll have my 200 footer next year.

Best of luck in doing so. You're also extremely fortunate to be living
on the west coast, however, where you have a *much* greater shot at
working the rare Asian and south pacific entities that are never even
a blip on my S-meter. Granted, I have an advantage on 80M, but I think
I'd rather have west-coast DX than east. Unfortunately, my Real Life
is on the east coast. sigh.

Uhm... you might want to reconsider this one. I also lived in Canada
(VA3GW) for eight years, so I know first hand the difference in
propagation. Of course, every part of the world has condx somewhere, but
at least on the East Coast you have free access to Europe almost all the
time, while EU signals are ancient history here on 10-15m, and on 17 and
lower they suffer from the auroral path attenuation, i.e. nothing heard.
Maybe no big deal for casual dxing, but there is no way in hell anyone
from the left coast ever wins any contest over the East Coasters. Right
now, there are days when I literally hear nothing on the bands (granted,
I only monitor 17m and up on account of the pathetic wire that passes
off as an antenna). Those napkins are starting to look good.

I like the weather much more than VE3, though...

Go, Raptors.

73 ... Zoran WA7AA






--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

Oh, I'll get hammered for this but here goes. I'd argue that the skill
level of the operator is inversely proportional to the width of the
split. Martti might ask for stations to call up 5 to 10, or maybe 5 to
15. He has a very high q/minute rate. When some ops say listening up,
and they really mean listening up 5 to 50, their rates go the the dumper
because they are spinning the dial way up trying to find one they can
make out and sometimes call a guy who could care less, stepping on other
operators all the while.

Oh, I'll get hammered for this but here goes. I'd argue that the skill
level of the operator is inversely proportional to the width of the
split. Martti might ask for stations to call up 5 to 10, or maybe 5 to
15. He has a very high q/minute rate. When some ops say listening up,
and they really mean listening up 5 to 50, their rates go the the dumper
because they are spinning the dial way up trying to find one they can
make out and sometimes call a guy who could care less, stepping on other
operators all the while.

Walt Davidson wrote:

EU signals are ancient history here on 10-15m


Oh really? I worked a whole bunch of W6, W7 and VE7 on 15m in the
ARRL DX Contest - both the CW and the SSB sections.

How many have you worked outside of contests?

73 ... WA7AA


--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly