Greetings, all.

I know it's not considered politically correct to flame a DXpedition.
I'm certainly not singling out the current XF4IH operation for this
criticism, but in the last year or so I've noticed a number of
somewhat high-profile DXpeditions have been mounted that were sorely
lacking in the basic on-air skills needed when operating from a
most-wanted entity. I'm not referring to small-scale operations by a
group of people on vacation, but rather some of the large
multi-station operations that have graced the airwaves of late.

These are DXpeditions that have started with wonderful intentions,
have had good funding and with many people who have happily given
their time and energy needed to mount them. While they are absolutely
to be thanked for their efforts, to be sure, many also rightfully
deserve some sharp criticism for the following transgressions:

* No enough power/ERP to be heard in their target areas
* No firm understanding of propagation
* Trying to work a killer pileup simplex
* Trying to work a killer pileup only up 5 (SSB), not over a range
* Inexperienced operators (or downright LIDS in one case last year)
* Not working by continents or "by the numbers" when things are bad
* Or, if they do, taking calls from stations calling "out of turn"
* Frequently not QSX on 40M SSB for the USA.
* Not QSX in the US General portion of the bands once in a while.
* Poor planning or logistics.

If it's the goal of the DXpedition to give a "new one" to as many hams
as possible (as most of the "Most Wanted" entity operations should
be), then they should be operating with good yagis and high-power on
20/15 around the clock, CW and SSB. K1B knew this. AH3D knew it. TI9M
knew it. PW0T knew it. XR0X knew it. Ever since these operations,
however, few of the Most Wanted operations seem to grasp this simple
concept.

I can understand if one of the stated goals is to give the entity to
as many as possible on the WARC bands or Low bands or on digital
modes--fine--that's how they're billing themselves and I have no
complaint when that's the case. But when a team goes into an operation
with the goal of giving the entity to as many as possible and their
operating style or procedures go contrary to that stated mission, then
frankly I feel gyped as one who's invested substantial time and effort
to work them.

Martti Laine, in his book "Where do we go Next?" compares DXpeditions
to live theatrical performances, and I think this is a very valid
comparison, at least to a point. It takes a grand sum of money to
mount a performance like this, the performers are likely skilled in
their craft before taking the stage and the audience is expecting a
good performance. If the actors and stage crew put on a good show, the
audience goes home happy. If the DXpeditioners are seasoned operators
who understand how to "play the game," the Deserving will happily work
their "new one" on many different bands and be happy.

But when you have inexperienced players on this international stage
who, not through any malice (we would hope) but just by not being
savvy enough to work through piles of 60,000 callsigns efficiently,
they can cause more ill-will than goodwill...except, perhaps, amongst
those who are lucky enough to get through from their mountaintop
locations with stacked yagis and kiloWatts.

For those who would angrily reply "if you don't like it, mount a
dxpedition yourself" I would simply ask that if you didn't like the
recent production of Richard III or My Fair Lady, would you feel
equally compelled to rent a theatre and take acting and stage
production lessons yourself? No, you would feel unsatisfied, and
perhaps angry for seeing your favourite play mangled by a poor cast or
with bad staging, etc, and then hope the next revival of it will be
done better.

So it is here. I look with longing and great hope to 3B9C (though I
don't need them for a new one), the hoped-for YV0, next month's
Clipperton Island excursion, Banaba and others in the hopes that they
may have top-notch operating skills and reasonable signals for the
current somewhat-poor propagation conditions.

73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

That's an easy question to answer.

If you work them, NOTHING is wrong with them.

If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them.

Obviously, you didn't.

73, Jim KH2D

said :

That's an easy question to answer.
If you work them, NOTHING is wrong with them.
If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them.
Obviously, you didn't.

Actually, that's not quite correct. I worked all of the operations I'm
referring to on at least one band/mode, with the exception of 3C0V.
Given the problems they faced, I don't know if there is any blame on
their part, so I won't comment.

If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them.
I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many
DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible. Yes, I'm
thankful they heard me, yes I'm thankful that they spent their time
and money to go, etc. But that doesn't mean that I thik they're all
first-class operators.

Here's one example that drives me nuts. If they're calling for North
America only, where I'm situated, and they're going by numbers in the
early days. Some EuroLids get in there and start shouting down
everybody, and don't even bother with the correct number -- i.e. DX
wants North America, number 2 only, and a gaggle of I, EA, CT, ON, OZ,
etc, stations with every number under the sun calls in. That's bad
enough. THEN, the DX station calls a loud EA5 when he was asking for
W/VE 2's, sorry...I think that's just a plain old bad operator.
Actually, TWO bad operators.

In the ARRL-SSB contest last Sunday afternoon, I listened to EA9IE,
Juan, handle a world-wide 20M pileup just spectacularly. He took a few
seconds to tell off the lids who were calling out of turn. It just
took about 4 or 5 and they got the message, and an otherwise
extra-strength-Tylenol class pileup became very manageable. Kudos,
Juan. Bob Furzer's done it too, as as Martti and members of his teams,
albeit each in their own fashion. When I eventually become part of a
DXpedition (money's too tight for the moment), I'll do the same. If I
want 5s only, only fives will be called. Insistent 8s and 9s will be
ignored or politely advised that they will not be called upon.

If an operator behind the mic or key happens to be from Upper Dipthong
and he favours other Upper Dipthongians over anybody else who is
calling in their proper turn, or when asked, well, sorry...that's
another Bad Operator.

OK, anybody can miss a few here and there, and I'll not aim my
displeasure on an operator who's having a Really Bad Day and makes a
few mistakes. We're human. We can be forgiven for that kind of thing.
I'm talking about operations that *regularly* do these things.

I'm talking also about operations that simply don't understand the
concept of going split over a range of frequencies, especially in the
first few days of a major operation to a rare entity. Q rates become 1
or 2 a minute, bedlam reigns and ill-will is the order of the day.

Other operators simply don't have enough skill with the English
language to be part of an operation whose main operating language is
English. Sorry, no offence, but it should be incumbant on a phone op
behind the mic to a most-wanted DXpedition to have a reasonably-strong
command of the English language. I'm not talking about a Shakespearean
stage actor here, but just someone who can converse readily in
English. I doff my hat to the big International operations who bring
on board at least one JA operator to work the inevitable JA pileups.
Many EU-originated operations don't do this for stateside hams.

My reason for posting these messages isn't to direct anger toward any
one operation. I'm hoping DXpeditioners or organizers of future trips
may possibly obtain one or two clues that they never might have
thought of otherwise, which may lessen the frustration of hams the
world over who want a crack at them.


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

"Peter Dougherty" wrote in message
...
said :

That's an easy question to answer.
If you work them, NOTHING is wrong with them.
If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them.
Obviously, you didn't.

Actually, that's not quite correct. I worked all of the operations I'm
referring to on at least one band/mode, with the exception of 3C0V.
Given the problems they faced, I don't know if there is any blame on
their part, so I won't comment.

If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them.
I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many
DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible. Yes, I'm
thankful they heard me, yes I'm thankful that they spent their time
and money to go, etc. But that doesn't mean that I thik they're all
first-class operators.

Here's one example that drives me nuts. If they're calling for North
America only, where I'm situated, and they're going by numbers in the
early days. Some EuroLids get in there and start shouting down
everybody, and don't even bother with the correct number -- i.e. DX
wants North America, number 2 only, and a gaggle of I, EA, CT, ON, OZ,
etc, stations with every number under the sun calls in. That's bad
enough. THEN, the DX station calls a loud EA5 when he was asking for
W/VE 2's, sorry...I think that's just a plain old bad operator.
Actually, TWO bad operators.

In the ARRL-SSB contest last Sunday afternoon, I listened to EA9IE,
Juan, handle a world-wide 20M pileup just spectacularly. He took a few
seconds to tell off the lids who were calling out of turn. It just
took about 4 or 5 and they got the message, and an otherwise
extra-strength-Tylenol class pileup became very manageable. Kudos,
Juan. Bob Furzer's done it too, as as Martti and members of his teams,
albeit each in their own fashion. When I eventually become part of a
DXpedition (money's too tight for the moment), I'll do the same. If I
want 5s only, only fives will be called. Insistent 8s and 9s will be
ignored or politely advised that they will not be called upon.

If an operator behind the mic or key happens to be from Upper Dipthong
and he favours other Upper Dipthongians over anybody else who is
calling in their proper turn, or when asked, well, sorry...that's
another Bad Operator.

OK, anybody can miss a few here and there, and I'll not aim my
displeasure on an operator who's having a Really Bad Day and makes a
few mistakes. We're human. We can be forgiven for that kind of thing.
I'm talking about operations that *regularly* do these things.

I'm talking also about operations that simply don't understand the
concept of going split over a range of frequencies, especially in the
first few days of a major operation to a rare entity. Q rates become 1
or 2 a minute, bedlam reigns and ill-will is the order of the day.

Other operators simply don't have enough skill with the English
language to be part of an operation whose main operating language is
English. Sorry, no offence, but it should be incumbant on a phone op
behind the mic to a most-wanted DXpedition to have a reasonably-strong
command of the English language. I'm not talking about a Shakespearean
stage actor here, but just someone who can converse readily in
English. I doff my hat to the big International operations who bring
on board at least one JA operator to work the inevitable JA pileups.
Many EU-originated operations don't do this for stateside hams.

My reason for posting these messages isn't to direct anger toward any
one operation. I'm hoping DXpeditioners or organizers of future trips
may possibly obtain one or two clues that they never might have
thought of otherwise, which may lessen the frustration of hams the
world over who want a crack at them.


I've always figured that whatever the ops do is ok. They give me a
chance to work something new. Always rather work 'em on CW,
but I'll do SSB if needed, and other modes given no other choice.

Is nice when Martti is on the key, because after 50 years I know
what he wants to hear and where he will be listening, and I can
work him quick and get out of the way ;-)

If it is someone who can only copy 10 WPM and listens only on his
own frequency, I'll call him at 10 WPM on his own frequency, but
ONLY when I'm pretty sure he can hear me. Relax, take it easy,
don't panic, listen long enough to be SURE what the op wants ...
then give it to them.

Worked for XF4IH on six band/modes so far.
Would have been 4 more, but they have not (yet) been listening
in the general portions of some bands.

--

... Hank

http://horedson.home.att.net
http://w0rli.home.att.net

On 13 Mar 2004 18:57:12 -0600, Peter Dougherty
wrote:

My reason for posting these messages isn't to direct anger toward any
one operation. I'm hoping DXpeditioners or organizers of future trips
may possibly obtain one or two clues that they never might have
thought of otherwise, which may lessen the frustration of hams the
world over who want a crack at them.

I'm afraid that's probably wishful thinking at best. We have been
complaining about DXpeditions for years, and that doesn't seem to have
improved the overall quality at all.

Fact is, the people who go aren't necessarily only the Pro's. They are
the people who want to go, who can afford to go, and who don't have
other obligations that keep them from going.

As far as the Dipthongians only working other Dipthongians, that's the
way life is. They paid for the trip with Dipthongian Pesos, so they
should be able to work whomever they please.

One really silly notion you need to get rid of that may change your
perspective on the whole game is the 'fact' that people go on
DXpeditions to work the world, to help the little guys with 100 watts
and a dipole get a 'new' one. That's crap. People go on DXpeditions
because they think it's fun to go, they enjoy the adrenalin rush at
the other end of the pileup - they do it for them, not for you or
me.......

Look up 'deserving' in the dictionary, and I'm sure you'll find it
says nothing about ham radio.

73, Jim KH2D

"Peter Dougherty" wrote in message
...
said :

That's an easy question to answer.
If you work them, NOTHING is wrong with them.
If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them.
Obviously, you didn't.

Actually, that's not quite correct. I worked all of the operations I'm
referring to on at least one band/mode, with the exception of 3C0V.
Given the problems they faced, I don't know if there is any blame on
their part, so I won't comment.

If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them.
I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many
DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible. Yes, I'm
thankful they heard me, yes I'm thankful that they spent their time
and money to go, etc. But that doesn't mean that I thik they're all
first-class operators.

Here's one example that drives me nuts. If they're calling for North
America only, where I'm situated, and they're going by numbers in the
early days. Some EuroLids get in there and start shouting down
everybody, and don't even bother with the correct number -- i.e. DX
wants North America, number 2 only, and a gaggle of I, EA, CT, ON, OZ,
etc, stations with every number under the sun calls in. That's bad
enough. THEN, the DX station calls a loud EA5 when he was asking for
W/VE 2's, sorry...I think that's just a plain old bad operator.
Actually, TWO bad operators.

In the ARRL-SSB contest last Sunday afternoon, I listened to EA9IE,
Juan, handle a world-wide 20M pileup just spectacularly. He took a few
seconds to tell off the lids who were calling out of turn. It just
took about 4 or 5 and they got the message, and an otherwise
extra-strength-Tylenol class pileup became very manageable. Kudos,
Juan. Bob Furzer's done it too, as as Martti and members of his teams,
albeit each in their own fashion. When I eventually become part of a
DXpedition (money's too tight for the moment), I'll do the same. If I
want 5s only, only fives will be called. Insistent 8s and 9s will be
ignored or politely advised that they will not be called upon.

If an operator behind the mic or key happens to be from Upper Dipthong
and he favours other Upper Dipthongians over anybody else who is
calling in their proper turn, or when asked, well, sorry...that's
another Bad Operator.

OK, anybody can miss a few here and there, and I'll not aim my
displeasure on an operator who's having a Really Bad Day and makes a
few mistakes. We're human. We can be forgiven for that kind of thing.
I'm talking about operations that *regularly* do these things.

I'm talking also about operations that simply don't understand the
concept of going split over a range of frequencies, especially in the
first few days of a major operation to a rare entity. Q rates become 1
or 2 a minute, bedlam reigns and ill-will is the order of the day.

Other operators simply don't have enough skill with the English
language to be part of an operation whose main operating language is
English. Sorry, no offence, but it should be incumbant on a phone op
behind the mic to a most-wanted DXpedition to have a reasonably-strong
command of the English language. I'm not talking about a Shakespearean
stage actor here, but just someone who can converse readily in
English. I doff my hat to the big International operations who bring
on board at least one JA operator to work the inevitable JA pileups.
Many EU-originated operations don't do this for stateside hams.

My reason for posting these messages isn't to direct anger toward any
one operation. I'm hoping DXpeditioners or organizers of future trips
may possibly obtain one or two clues that they never might have
thought of otherwise, which may lessen the frustration of hams the
world over who want a crack at them.


I've always figured that whatever the ops do is ok. They give me a
chance to work something new. Always rather work 'em on CW,
but I'll do SSB if needed, and other modes given no other choice.

Is nice when Martti is on the key, because after 50 years I know
what he wants to hear and where he will be listening, and I can
work him quick and get out of the way ;-)

If it is someone who can only copy 10 WPM and listens only on his
own frequency, I'll call him at 10 WPM on his own frequency, but
ONLY when I'm pretty sure he can hear me. Relax, take it easy,
don't panic, listen long enough to be SURE what the op wants ...
then give it to them.

Worked for XF4IH on six band/modes so far.
Would have been 4 more, but they have not (yet) been listening
in the general portions of some bands.

--

... Hank

http://horedson.home.att.net
http://w0rli.home.att.net

Peter Dougherty wrote:

I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many
DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible.


You're making some huge assumptions in your posts:

That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls
them and even those who don't.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers,
must speak English with a Brooklyn accent and must be familiar with the
FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it).

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World
by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.



There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

You want fries with that?


73 ... WA7AA





--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

Zoran Brlecic said :

You're making some huge assumptions in your posts:

I'll state again in advance. These comments apply to DXpeditions of
teams of operators to rare and very rare "most wanted" entities, not
to a couple of guys going on holiday with 100W and wires who want to
have some fun on the radio between bouts of excess partying and
golfing, etc.

That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls
them and even those who don't.

I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up
a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of
their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc,
that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as
want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such
as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes,
focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these
goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from
me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I
only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and
I'm not in the EU.

However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective
is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in
ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree
of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation
stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they
sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a
valid complaint.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers

Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity. I'm not
saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they should be
experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know
how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most
important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10
top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but
well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis.

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

must speak English with a Brooklyn accent

Heavens, no! I want to understand them!! Besides, I live in Queens...I
hear enough of that every day, thanks very much.

In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of
these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet
thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be
conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the
operation.

If the operation is from Spain, with the goal of working as many
Spanish-speaking stations worldwide as possible, it would be insane to
bring along a team of Brits who can speak a few phrase book sentences.

To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over
the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in
a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being
the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more
often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$
rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be
obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it
with reasonable clarity.

and must be familiar with the
FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it).

Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World

Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything
about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+
hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible.

by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.
Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals
with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or
whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be
too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation.

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested
several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or
cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX
toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their
part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of
New Bands out of their operation.

If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just
can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or
work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear
the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9
operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I
didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the
limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals
was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them.
Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no
inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc.

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.

There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one
you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and
hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and
outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it
mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a
living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many
people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be
the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a
marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes
phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation.

It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these
points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that
somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take
heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of
thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts.
If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine.
C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get
through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation.

There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.

I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will
ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier
thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the
bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are
Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the
current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO
within those accepted parameters.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's
just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO*
want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or
against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be
grateful for the same chance.

You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at
your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a
mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power.

You want fries with that?

Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you.

73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

Peter Dougherty wrote:


I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up
a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of
their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc,
that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as
want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such
as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes,
focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these
goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from
me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I
only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and
I'm not in the EU.

However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective
is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in
ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree
of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation
stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they
sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a
valid complaint.

No, you wouldn't. The "objectives" are subjective to begin with, and
even though most of them encompass "working as many as possible", this
typically means within the ability, capacity, moods and limitations of
the operators. Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the
level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that
all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be
interested. I know I wouldn't; hell, collecting napkins would be more
exciting.
Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so
what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative
who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work. We have a choice
of waiting our turn or walking away. We certainly don't have a right to
complain on the air, jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any
similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers

Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity.

As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and
they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of
yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but
why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy
dx-ped.

I'm not saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they
should be
experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know
how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most
important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10
top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but
well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis.

I'll take both and work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other
time. Where's the urgency?

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk
of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a
hobby, after all. Let me just say that I personally spend an
disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have
a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it
seriously.

In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of
these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet
thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be
conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the
operation.

And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time
dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in
English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases.
If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests
for 160m, RTTY, QSL info, listening for "my friend", etc.

To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over
the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in
a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being
the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more
often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$
rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be
obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it
with reasonable clarity.

I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just
me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English
skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit.

Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it,
other than the free Internet steam venting? You talk about such
operations causing "more ill-will than goodwill". I say, good for them
and the more the better. Dxing is supposed to be a game of chance,
patience and skills, not an instant gratification for the gimme
generation. What about rare DXCC entities with native ops? Should they
all follow our demand for first class skills or risk being dismissed as
"bad op", "lid", "deaf", "horrible", "idiot", "$$$", etc. (all of these
courtesy of the Cluster police).

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World

Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything
about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+
hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible.

I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal
instead, so this is a moot point.

by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.

Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals
with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or
whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be
too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation.

What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be
serious? Remember again that this is not a business...

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested
several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or
cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX
toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their
part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of
New Bands out of their operation.

Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal
system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped. Alternatively, present
a valid case for the compensation that a dx-ped should be legally
obligated to, should they fail to QSO the plaintiffs who invested their
time and energy in this endeavor. Can you hear yourself?

If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just
can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or
work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear
the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9
operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I
didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the
limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals
was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them.
Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no
inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc.

And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or
"poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct? What makes you think
anyone owes you a QSO?

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.

There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one
you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and
hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and
outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it
mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a
living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many
people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be
the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a
marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes
phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation.

You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of
perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become.

It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these
points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that
somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take
heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of
thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts.
If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine.
C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get
through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation.

And so it won't. Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the
dx-peds be? I, for example, believe that all people should respect each
others' rights without exceptions, but I won't act surprised and
slighted when I encounter racist bigots and religious lunatics - I'll
try to reason with them or cross to the other side of the street.

There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.


I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will
ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier
thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the
bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are
Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the
current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO
within those accepted parameters.

If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve
some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple
and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with
which I agree to a point.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's
just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO*
want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or
against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be
grateful for the same chance.

You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at
your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a
mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power.

Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the
ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles
radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well,
I'll have my 200 footer next year.

73 ... WA7AA


You want fries with that?

Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you.

Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all
discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew?




--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

Peter Dougherty wrote:


I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up
a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of
their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc,
that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as
want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such
as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes,
focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these
goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from
me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I
only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and
I'm not in the EU.

However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective
is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in
ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree
of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation
stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they
sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a
valid complaint.

No, you wouldn't. The "objectives" are subjective to begin with, and
even though most of them encompass "working as many as possible", this
typically means within the ability, capacity, moods and limitations of
the operators. Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the
level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that
all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be
interested. I know I wouldn't; hell, collecting napkins would be more
exciting.
Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so
what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative
who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work. We have a choice
of waiting our turn or walking away. We certainly don't have a right to
complain on the air, jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any
similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers

Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity.

As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and
they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of
yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but
why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy
dx-ped.

I'm not saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they
should be
experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know
how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most
important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10
top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but
well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis.

I'll take both and work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other
time. Where's the urgency?

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk
of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a
hobby, after all. Let me just say that I personally spend an
disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have
a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it
seriously.

In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of
these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet
thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be
conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the
operation.

And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time
dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in
English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases.
If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests
for 160m, RTTY, QSL info, listening for "my friend", etc.

To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over
the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in
a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being
the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more
often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$
rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be
obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it
with reasonable clarity.

I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just
me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English
skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit.

Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it,
other than the free Internet steam venting? You talk about such
operations causing "more ill-will than goodwill". I say, good for them
and the more the better. Dxing is supposed to be a game of chance,
patience and skills, not an instant gratification for the gimme
generation. What about rare DXCC entities with native ops? Should they
all follow our demand for first class skills or risk being dismissed as
"bad op", "lid", "deaf", "horrible", "idiot", "$$$", etc. (all of these
courtesy of the Cluster police).

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World

Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything
about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+
hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible.

I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal
instead, so this is a moot point.

by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.

Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals
with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or
whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be
too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation.

What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be
serious? Remember again that this is not a business...

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested
several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or
cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX
toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their
part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of
New Bands out of their operation.

Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal
system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped. Alternatively, present
a valid case for the compensation that a dx-ped should be legally
obligated to, should they fail to QSO the plaintiffs who invested their
time and energy in this endeavor. Can you hear yourself?

If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just
can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or
work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear
the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9
operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I
didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the
limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals
was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them.
Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no
inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc.

And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or
"poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct? What makes you think
anyone owes you a QSO?

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.

There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one
you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and
hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and
outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it
mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a
living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many
people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be
the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a
marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes
phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation.

You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of
perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become.

It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these
points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that
somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take
heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of
thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts.
If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine.
C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get
through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation.

And so it won't. Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the
dx-peds be? I, for example, believe that all people should respect each
others' rights without exceptions, but I won't act surprised and
slighted when I encounter racist bigots and religious lunatics - I'll
try to reason with them or cross to the other side of the street.

There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.


I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will
ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier
thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the
bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are
Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the
current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO
within those accepted parameters.

If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve
some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple
and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with
which I agree to a point.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's
just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO*
want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or
against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be
grateful for the same chance.

You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at
your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a
mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power.

Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the
ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles
radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well,
I'll have my 200 footer next year.

73 ... WA7AA


You want fries with that?

Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you.

Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all
discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew?




--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly