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What's wrong with recent DXPeditions
Greetings, all.
I know it's not considered politically correct to flame a DXpedition. I'm certainly not singling out the current XF4IH operation for this criticism, but in the last year or so I've noticed a number of somewhat high-profile DXpeditions have been mounted that were sorely lacking in the basic on-air skills needed when operating from a most-wanted entity. I'm not referring to small-scale operations by a group of people on vacation, but rather some of the large multi-station operations that have graced the airwaves of late. These are DXpeditions that have started with wonderful intentions, have had good funding and with many people who have happily given their time and energy needed to mount them. While they are absolutely to be thanked for their efforts, to be sure, many also rightfully deserve some sharp criticism for the following transgressions: * No enough power/ERP to be heard in their target areas * No firm understanding of propagation * Trying to work a killer pileup simplex * Trying to work a killer pileup only up 5 (SSB), not over a range * Inexperienced operators (or downright LIDS in one case last year) * Not working by continents or "by the numbers" when things are bad * Or, if they do, taking calls from stations calling "out of turn" * Frequently not QSX on 40M SSB for the USA. * Not QSX in the US General portion of the bands once in a while. * Poor planning or logistics. If it's the goal of the DXpedition to give a "new one" to as many hams as possible (as most of the "Most Wanted" entity operations should be), then they should be operating with good yagis and high-power on 20/15 around the clock, CW and SSB. K1B knew this. AH3D knew it. TI9M knew it. PW0T knew it. XR0X knew it. Ever since these operations, however, few of the Most Wanted operations seem to grasp this simple concept. I can understand if one of the stated goals is to give the entity to as many as possible on the WARC bands or Low bands or on digital modes--fine--that's how they're billing themselves and I have no complaint when that's the case. But when a team goes into an operation with the goal of giving the entity to as many as possible and their operating style or procedures go contrary to that stated mission, then frankly I feel gyped as one who's invested substantial time and effort to work them. Martti Laine, in his book "Where do we go Next?" compares DXpeditions to live theatrical performances, and I think this is a very valid comparison, at least to a point. It takes a grand sum of money to mount a performance like this, the performers are likely skilled in their craft before taking the stage and the audience is expecting a good performance. If the actors and stage crew put on a good show, the audience goes home happy. If the DXpeditioners are seasoned operators who understand how to "play the game," the Deserving will happily work their "new one" on many different bands and be happy. But when you have inexperienced players on this international stage who, not through any malice (we would hope) but just by not being savvy enough to work through piles of 60,000 callsigns efficiently, they can cause more ill-will than goodwill...except, perhaps, amongst those who are lucky enough to get through from their mountaintop locations with stacked yagis and kiloWatts. For those who would angrily reply "if you don't like it, mount a dxpedition yourself" I would simply ask that if you didn't like the recent production of Richard III or My Fair Lady, would you feel equally compelled to rent a theatre and take acting and stage production lessons yourself? No, you would feel unsatisfied, and perhaps angry for seeing your favourite play mangled by a poor cast or with bad staging, etc, and then hope the next revival of it will be done better. So it is here. I look with longing and great hope to 3B9C (though I don't need them for a new one), the hoped-for YV0, next month's Clipperton Island excursion, Banaba and others in the hopes that they may have top-notch operating skills and reasonable signals for the current somewhat-poor propagation conditions. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
That's an easy question to answer.
If you work them, NOTHING is wrong with them. If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them. Obviously, you didn't. 73, Jim KH2D |
That's an easy question to answer.
If you work them, NOTHING is wrong with them. If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them. Obviously, you didn't. 73, Jim KH2D |
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"Peter Dougherty" wrote in message
... said : That's an easy question to answer. If you work them, NOTHING is wrong with them. If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them. Obviously, you didn't. Actually, that's not quite correct. I worked all of the operations I'm referring to on at least one band/mode, with the exception of 3C0V. Given the problems they faced, I don't know if there is any blame on their part, so I won't comment. If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them. I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible. Yes, I'm thankful they heard me, yes I'm thankful that they spent their time and money to go, etc. But that doesn't mean that I thik they're all first-class operators. Here's one example that drives me nuts. If they're calling for North America only, where I'm situated, and they're going by numbers in the early days. Some EuroLids get in there and start shouting down everybody, and don't even bother with the correct number -- i.e. DX wants North America, number 2 only, and a gaggle of I, EA, CT, ON, OZ, etc, stations with every number under the sun calls in. That's bad enough. THEN, the DX station calls a loud EA5 when he was asking for W/VE 2's, sorry...I think that's just a plain old bad operator. Actually, TWO bad operators. In the ARRL-SSB contest last Sunday afternoon, I listened to EA9IE, Juan, handle a world-wide 20M pileup just spectacularly. He took a few seconds to tell off the lids who were calling out of turn. It just took about 4 or 5 and they got the message, and an otherwise extra-strength-Tylenol class pileup became very manageable. Kudos, Juan. Bob Furzer's done it too, as as Martti and members of his teams, albeit each in their own fashion. When I eventually become part of a DXpedition (money's too tight for the moment), I'll do the same. If I want 5s only, only fives will be called. Insistent 8s and 9s will be ignored or politely advised that they will not be called upon. If an operator behind the mic or key happens to be from Upper Dipthong and he favours other Upper Dipthongians over anybody else who is calling in their proper turn, or when asked, well, sorry...that's another Bad Operator. OK, anybody can miss a few here and there, and I'll not aim my displeasure on an operator who's having a Really Bad Day and makes a few mistakes. We're human. We can be forgiven for that kind of thing. I'm talking about operations that *regularly* do these things. I'm talking also about operations that simply don't understand the concept of going split over a range of frequencies, especially in the first few days of a major operation to a rare entity. Q rates become 1 or 2 a minute, bedlam reigns and ill-will is the order of the day. Other operators simply don't have enough skill with the English language to be part of an operation whose main operating language is English. Sorry, no offence, but it should be incumbant on a phone op behind the mic to a most-wanted DXpedition to have a reasonably-strong command of the English language. I'm not talking about a Shakespearean stage actor here, but just someone who can converse readily in English. I doff my hat to the big International operations who bring on board at least one JA operator to work the inevitable JA pileups. Many EU-originated operations don't do this for stateside hams. My reason for posting these messages isn't to direct anger toward any one operation. I'm hoping DXpeditioners or organizers of future trips may possibly obtain one or two clues that they never might have thought of otherwise, which may lessen the frustration of hams the world over who want a crack at them. I've always figured that whatever the ops do is ok. They give me a chance to work something new. Always rather work 'em on CW, but I'll do SSB if needed, and other modes given no other choice. Is nice when Martti is on the key, because after 50 years I know what he wants to hear and where he will be listening, and I can work him quick and get out of the way ;-) If it is someone who can only copy 10 WPM and listens only on his own frequency, I'll call him at 10 WPM on his own frequency, but ONLY when I'm pretty sure he can hear me. Relax, take it easy, don't panic, listen long enough to be SURE what the op wants ... then give it to them. Worked for XF4IH on six band/modes so far. Would have been 4 more, but they have not (yet) been listening in the general portions of some bands. -- ... Hank http://horedson.home.att.net http://w0rli.home.att.net |
On 13 Mar 2004 18:57:12 -0600, Peter Dougherty
wrote: My reason for posting these messages isn't to direct anger toward any one operation. I'm hoping DXpeditioners or organizers of future trips may possibly obtain one or two clues that they never might have thought of otherwise, which may lessen the frustration of hams the world over who want a crack at them. I'm afraid that's probably wishful thinking at best. We have been complaining about DXpeditions for years, and that doesn't seem to have improved the overall quality at all. Fact is, the people who go aren't necessarily only the Pro's. They are the people who want to go, who can afford to go, and who don't have other obligations that keep them from going. As far as the Dipthongians only working other Dipthongians, that's the way life is. They paid for the trip with Dipthongian Pesos, so they should be able to work whomever they please. One really silly notion you need to get rid of that may change your perspective on the whole game is the 'fact' that people go on DXpeditions to work the world, to help the little guys with 100 watts and a dipole get a 'new' one. That's crap. People go on DXpeditions because they think it's fun to go, they enjoy the adrenalin rush at the other end of the pileup - they do it for them, not for you or me....... Look up 'deserving' in the dictionary, and I'm sure you'll find it says nothing about ham radio. 73, Jim KH2D |
On 13 Mar 2004 18:57:12 -0600, Peter Dougherty
wrote: My reason for posting these messages isn't to direct anger toward any one operation. I'm hoping DXpeditioners or organizers of future trips may possibly obtain one or two clues that they never might have thought of otherwise, which may lessen the frustration of hams the world over who want a crack at them. I'm afraid that's probably wishful thinking at best. We have been complaining about DXpeditions for years, and that doesn't seem to have improved the overall quality at all. Fact is, the people who go aren't necessarily only the Pro's. They are the people who want to go, who can afford to go, and who don't have other obligations that keep them from going. As far as the Dipthongians only working other Dipthongians, that's the way life is. They paid for the trip with Dipthongian Pesos, so they should be able to work whomever they please. One really silly notion you need to get rid of that may change your perspective on the whole game is the 'fact' that people go on DXpeditions to work the world, to help the little guys with 100 watts and a dipole get a 'new' one. That's crap. People go on DXpeditions because they think it's fun to go, they enjoy the adrenalin rush at the other end of the pileup - they do it for them, not for you or me....... Look up 'deserving' in the dictionary, and I'm sure you'll find it says nothing about ham radio. 73, Jim KH2D |
Why is it that the "best operators" are found at home complaining
rather than on the expedition doing what they complain the other guys are not doing? Joe |
Why is it that the "best operators" are found at home complaining
rather than on the expedition doing what they complain the other guys are not doing? Joe |
Peter Dougherty wrote:
I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible. You're making some huge assumptions in your posts: That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls them and even those who don't. That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers, must speak English with a Brooklyn accent and must be familiar with the FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it). That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available. That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped, whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and effort" and that anyone should care about that. That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped. There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse. One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid. So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an S9+ signal??? You want fries with that? 73 ... WA7AA -- Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly |
Peter Dougherty wrote:
I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible. You're making some huge assumptions in your posts: That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls them and even those who don't. That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers, must speak English with a Brooklyn accent and must be familiar with the FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it). That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available. That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped, whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and effort" and that anyone should care about that. That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped. There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse. One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid. So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an S9+ signal??? You want fries with that? 73 ... WA7AA -- Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly |
Ah DX IS
I would say that 90% of the DXpeditions of late have been well run by good to excellent operators. About the same as 20 to 30 years ago. As far as packet clusters now a days dumbing down the DX world -- well before the clusters there were DX repeaters, local DX simplex freq spots, one ringers, LL calls and DX news bulletins. Only difference is now everyone gets the scoop for free. You don't get to honor roll by DX cluster spots only -- as those who have done it well know. Ya still gotta work em which we little guns know may take a LONG time and some real DXing skills. As far as the newbies (and oldies) calling over the DX or ignoring directive calls -- not much has changed there either -- same o same o. Recently I read a 30 year old DX club news letter complaining about the same procedures, lids, etc And it's the DXpeditions show. If they want to operate simplex, split, or work their home country first -- well they are calling the shots. There are plenty of resources on the web and publications on how to work DX and how to run a DXpedition. So ignorance reigns as it has since the beginning of DXCC. This entire thread could have been posted 30 years ago. Get over it and develop the skills that will net you that contact. -- Incognito By Necessity (:-( If you can't convince them, confuse them. - - -Harry S Truman |
Ah DX IS
I would say that 90% of the DXpeditions of late have been well run by good to excellent operators. About the same as 20 to 30 years ago. As far as packet clusters now a days dumbing down the DX world -- well before the clusters there were DX repeaters, local DX simplex freq spots, one ringers, LL calls and DX news bulletins. Only difference is now everyone gets the scoop for free. You don't get to honor roll by DX cluster spots only -- as those who have done it well know. Ya still gotta work em which we little guns know may take a LONG time and some real DXing skills. As far as the newbies (and oldies) calling over the DX or ignoring directive calls -- not much has changed there either -- same o same o. Recently I read a 30 year old DX club news letter complaining about the same procedures, lids, etc And it's the DXpeditions show. If they want to operate simplex, split, or work their home country first -- well they are calling the shots. There are plenty of resources on the web and publications on how to work DX and how to run a DXpedition. So ignorance reigns as it has since the beginning of DXCC. This entire thread could have been posted 30 years ago. Get over it and develop the skills that will net you that contact. -- Incognito By Necessity (:-( If you can't convince them, confuse them. - - -Harry S Truman |
Peter Dougherty wrote:
* No enough power/ERP to be heard in their target areas * No firm understanding of propagation * Trying to work a killer pileup simplex * Trying to work a killer pileup only up 5 (SSB), not over a range * Inexperienced operators (or downright LIDS in one case last year) * Not working by continents or "by the numbers" when things are bad * Or, if they do, taking calls from stations calling "out of turn" * Frequently not QSX on 40M SSB for the USA. * Not QSX in the US General portion of the bands once in a while. * Poor planning or logistics. Rare ones are rare for good reason. Sure, it'd be nice if every rare one was activated by a team of skilled operators with plenty of equipment. Sometimes, for reasons beyond the control of the ham community, that's not possible. I remember plenty of grumbling about TO4E's weird operating schedule -- as it turns out, any other schedule would have prevented the expedition altogether. My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2 meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down? -- Doug Smith W9WI Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66 http://www.w9wi.com |
Peter Dougherty wrote:
* No enough power/ERP to be heard in their target areas * No firm understanding of propagation * Trying to work a killer pileup simplex * Trying to work a killer pileup only up 5 (SSB), not over a range * Inexperienced operators (or downright LIDS in one case last year) * Not working by continents or "by the numbers" when things are bad * Or, if they do, taking calls from stations calling "out of turn" * Frequently not QSX on 40M SSB for the USA. * Not QSX in the US General portion of the bands once in a while. * Poor planning or logistics. Rare ones are rare for good reason. Sure, it'd be nice if every rare one was activated by a team of skilled operators with plenty of equipment. Sometimes, for reasons beyond the control of the ham community, that's not possible. I remember plenty of grumbling about TO4E's weird operating schedule -- as it turns out, any other schedule would have prevented the expedition altogether. My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2 meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down? -- Doug Smith W9WI Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66 http://www.w9wi.com |
Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2 meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down? No. But would you turn down spending a couple of hours playing with PED before that? What's been left out of this whole discussion is the aspect of *FUN*. Everybody wants to have some fun either working the DX or being the DX, but it certainly is a lot more fun to have split pile ups instead of a simplex ones. We should try to make the rare ones understand that it's really great fun working one station after the after, completely forgetting about time and space, ignoring bodily needs just to dig out that creepy /QRP among the warmonging kilowatt guys, giving tiny hints for the deserving with regard to your RX frequency (Remember that '73 de ZL9CI'?). The elation of running a real tail-end QSO on both sides, the adrenaline kick of having thousands of discplined JAs coming along like the pearls of a string (each of them being equally PW), the evil grin of deliberately ignoring the out-of-turn caller and virtually seeing his head turning red in frustration. Hearing the top DXer working you with a single call, knowing that he followed you for a couple of minutes and sent his call just once, but doing so with perfect timing and precise knowledge about his own TX frequency. Getting a feeling for propagation, noticing in awe that graylight propagation is not some mysterious thing, but a tantalizing phenomenon that makes your heart beat faster. The casual "tnx new one" after a quick 5nn. It's fun, guy, sheer fun and we should to everything to make those about to start a trip to a rare one understand the fun part of it. Peter Lemken DF5JT Berlin -- Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming, 'Wow, what a ride!' |
Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2 meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down? No. But would you turn down spending a couple of hours playing with PED before that? What's been left out of this whole discussion is the aspect of *FUN*. Everybody wants to have some fun either working the DX or being the DX, but it certainly is a lot more fun to have split pile ups instead of a simplex ones. We should try to make the rare ones understand that it's really great fun working one station after the after, completely forgetting about time and space, ignoring bodily needs just to dig out that creepy /QRP among the warmonging kilowatt guys, giving tiny hints for the deserving with regard to your RX frequency (Remember that '73 de ZL9CI'?). The elation of running a real tail-end QSO on both sides, the adrenaline kick of having thousands of discplined JAs coming along like the pearls of a string (each of them being equally PW), the evil grin of deliberately ignoring the out-of-turn caller and virtually seeing his head turning red in frustration. Hearing the top DXer working you with a single call, knowing that he followed you for a couple of minutes and sent his call just once, but doing so with perfect timing and precise knowledge about his own TX frequency. Getting a feeling for propagation, noticing in awe that graylight propagation is not some mysterious thing, but a tantalizing phenomenon that makes your heart beat faster. The casual "tnx new one" after a quick 5nn. It's fun, guy, sheer fun and we should to everything to make those about to start a trip to a rare one understand the fun part of it. Peter Lemken DF5JT Berlin -- Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming, 'Wow, what a ride!' |
Zoran Brlecic said :
You're making some huge assumptions in your posts: I'll state again in advance. These comments apply to DXpeditions of teams of operators to rare and very rare "most wanted" entities, not to a couple of guys going on holiday with 100W and wires who want to have some fun on the radio between bouts of excess partying and golfing, etc. That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls them and even those who don't. I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc, that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes, focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and I'm not in the EU. However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a valid complaint. That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity. I'm not saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they should be experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10 top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis. It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified people he or she can find. must speak English with a Brooklyn accent Heavens, no! I want to understand them!! Besides, I live in Queens...I hear enough of that every day, thanks very much. In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the operation. If the operation is from Spain, with the goal of working as many Spanish-speaking stations worldwide as possible, it would be insane to bring along a team of Brits who can speak a few phrase book sentences. To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$ rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it with reasonable clarity. and must be familiar with the FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it). Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300 (who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)? This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well. That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+ hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible. by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available. Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation. That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped, whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and effort" and that anyone should care about that. Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of New Bands out of their operation. If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9 operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them. Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc. That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped. There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation. It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts. If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine. C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation. There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse. One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid. I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO within those accepted parameters. So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an S9+ signal??? See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO* want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be grateful for the same chance. You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power. You want fries with that? Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
Zoran Brlecic said :
You're making some huge assumptions in your posts: I'll state again in advance. These comments apply to DXpeditions of teams of operators to rare and very rare "most wanted" entities, not to a couple of guys going on holiday with 100W and wires who want to have some fun on the radio between bouts of excess partying and golfing, etc. That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls them and even those who don't. I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc, that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes, focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and I'm not in the EU. However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a valid complaint. That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity. I'm not saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they should be experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10 top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis. It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified people he or she can find. must speak English with a Brooklyn accent Heavens, no! I want to understand them!! Besides, I live in Queens...I hear enough of that every day, thanks very much. In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the operation. If the operation is from Spain, with the goal of working as many Spanish-speaking stations worldwide as possible, it would be insane to bring along a team of Brits who can speak a few phrase book sentences. To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$ rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it with reasonable clarity. and must be familiar with the FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it). Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300 (who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)? This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well. That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+ hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible. by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available. Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation. That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped, whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and effort" and that anyone should care about that. Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of New Bands out of their operation. If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9 operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them. Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc. That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped. There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation. It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts. If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine. C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation. There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse. One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid. I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO within those accepted parameters. So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an S9+ signal??? See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO* want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be grateful for the same chance. You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power. You want fries with that? Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
Doug Smith W9WI said :
Sure, it'd be nice if every rare one was activated by a team of skilled operators with plenty of equipment. Sometimes, for reasons beyond the control of the ham community, that's not possible. When it's beyond their control, well, so be it. That's life. If it's NOT beyond their control, however, then there's room for improvement or a better performance. I remember plenty of grumbling about TO4E's weird operating schedule -- as it turns out, any other schedule would have prevented the expedition altogether. TO4E's biggest problem was a lost barrel of fuel for the generator. That fault lies where it may. Once the were dealt the hand they got, it was up to them to do their best with it. Did they do their best with it? I'll leave that decision up to you. My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2 meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down? ....and our sked will be when?? grin I would hope departure date you'd have something a little better than the 680, but even if you didn't, you'd likely have done enough reading on good DXpedition operating procedures to know how to manage the pileups that will happen should that magical event ever happen. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
Doug Smith W9WI said :
Sure, it'd be nice if every rare one was activated by a team of skilled operators with plenty of equipment. Sometimes, for reasons beyond the control of the ham community, that's not possible. When it's beyond their control, well, so be it. That's life. If it's NOT beyond their control, however, then there's room for improvement or a better performance. I remember plenty of grumbling about TO4E's weird operating schedule -- as it turns out, any other schedule would have prevented the expedition altogether. TO4E's biggest problem was a lost barrel of fuel for the generator. That fault lies where it may. Once the were dealt the hand they got, it was up to them to do their best with it. Did they do their best with it? I'll leave that decision up to you. My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2 meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down? ....and our sked will be when?? grin I would hope departure date you'd have something a little better than the 680, but even if you didn't, you'd likely have done enough reading on good DXpedition operating procedures to know how to manage the pileups that will happen should that magical event ever happen. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
"Incognito" said :
Ah DX IS It is indeed, but there's no rule that says we can't try our best to help mold it in a certain way, and that's been the intent of this thread. I would say that 90% of the DXpeditions of late have been well run by good to excellent operators. I disagree. The BIG DXpeditons, yes. PW0T, K1B, TI9M, XR0X (which I never worked, by the way), Mali last summer (which I also never worked), etc. All good. But there have been a spate of others that were poorly conceived and even more poorly executed. These are the ones that I'm commenting on. Operations that could have and should have done things differently. About the same as 20 to 30 years ago. Wasn't around 30 years ago, but 20+, yes, indeed. Ya still gotta work em which we little guns know may take a LONG time and some real DXing skills. And lots of fun -- and heartbreak -- in the process! That's what keeps the game fun. As far as the newbies (and oldies) calling over the DX or ignoring directive calls -- not much has changed there either -- same o same o. Recently I read a 30 year old DX club news letter complaining about the same procedures, lids, etc Sad to see so little has changed. But the OPERATORS should know better and NOT give the go-ahead to some lid who calls out of turn, unless it's to shut him up and not log him! Even then, it sets a bad precident, and just invites more lids to ignore the operator. And it's the DXpeditions show. If they want to operate simplex, split, or work their home country first -- well they are calling the shots. And that one sentence is why I started this thread. I wrote it in the fervent hope that some ham, somewhere in Upper Slobovia or Lower Dipthong who is planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will read these words and hopefully do things a little differently. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
"Incognito" said :
Ah DX IS It is indeed, but there's no rule that says we can't try our best to help mold it in a certain way, and that's been the intent of this thread. I would say that 90% of the DXpeditions of late have been well run by good to excellent operators. I disagree. The BIG DXpeditons, yes. PW0T, K1B, TI9M, XR0X (which I never worked, by the way), Mali last summer (which I also never worked), etc. All good. But there have been a spate of others that were poorly conceived and even more poorly executed. These are the ones that I'm commenting on. Operations that could have and should have done things differently. About the same as 20 to 30 years ago. Wasn't around 30 years ago, but 20+, yes, indeed. Ya still gotta work em which we little guns know may take a LONG time and some real DXing skills. And lots of fun -- and heartbreak -- in the process! That's what keeps the game fun. As far as the newbies (and oldies) calling over the DX or ignoring directive calls -- not much has changed there either -- same o same o. Recently I read a 30 year old DX club news letter complaining about the same procedures, lids, etc Sad to see so little has changed. But the OPERATORS should know better and NOT give the go-ahead to some lid who calls out of turn, unless it's to shut him up and not log him! Even then, it sets a bad precident, and just invites more lids to ignore the operator. And it's the DXpeditions show. If they want to operate simplex, split, or work their home country first -- well they are calling the shots. And that one sentence is why I started this thread. I wrote it in the fervent hope that some ham, somewhere in Upper Slobovia or Lower Dipthong who is planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will read these words and hopefully do things a little differently. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote: You want fries with that? Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can scan to find the QSO in the online logs..... Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio..... 73, Jim KH2D |
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote: You want fries with that? Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can scan to find the QSO in the online logs..... Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio..... 73, Jim KH2D |
Well here are 14 well run DXpeditions -- you work em ???
URL: http://www.425dxn.org/trophy_2003/ -- Incognito By Necessity (:-( If you can't convince them, confuse them. - - -Harry S Truman wrote in message .. . On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic wrote: You want fries with that? Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can scan to find the QSO in the online logs..... Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio..... 73, Jim KH2D |
Well here are 14 well run DXpeditions -- you work em ???
URL: http://www.425dxn.org/trophy_2003/ -- Incognito By Necessity (:-( If you can't convince them, confuse them. - - -Harry S Truman wrote in message .. . On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic wrote: You want fries with that? Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can scan to find the QSO in the online logs..... Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio..... 73, Jim KH2D |
"Incognito" said :
Well here are 14 well run DXpeditions -- you work em ??? URL: http://www.425dxn.org/trophy_2003/ Worked a good number of them; 8 or 9, I think. I can't hear southeast Asia from here, so I couldn't get Pratas, Myanmar or Cocos-Keeling. Never got through to 3C0V and was on business in the UK while Mali was happening. Of the rest, I won't work an operation on bands/modes I already have confirmed, so I sat out a few of those (Tunisia and Marquesas come to mind). I don't agree with the positioning of a few of them on that list, and I certainly would not have ranked 3C0V that high, nor TO4E, nor VP6DIA, though they all deserved to be on that list if for nothing else going to entities that were desperately needed. Points for effort and all that. ST0RY was pretty good from what I remember, but I have Sudan on 10, 15 and 20, the only bands I could have gotten them on. Never heard them on 12 or 17, though I was trying. From my personal experience, I would have ranked AH3D highest. They were absolutely first-rate. They were well-ordered with a good signal and even when it was a madhouse for the first few days, they always ran a good crisp-clean operation. I think it took me 2 days to get through for the first time, and I got them on three bands, total. Understand, of course, that the 425 list is Italian/EU centric, and I wonder how well they were able to get a signal from Johnston into the EU. I like any operation that has worked through their piles so quickly that in the waning days they're essentially begging. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
"Incognito" said :
Well here are 14 well run DXpeditions -- you work em ??? URL: http://www.425dxn.org/trophy_2003/ Worked a good number of them; 8 or 9, I think. I can't hear southeast Asia from here, so I couldn't get Pratas, Myanmar or Cocos-Keeling. Never got through to 3C0V and was on business in the UK while Mali was happening. Of the rest, I won't work an operation on bands/modes I already have confirmed, so I sat out a few of those (Tunisia and Marquesas come to mind). I don't agree with the positioning of a few of them on that list, and I certainly would not have ranked 3C0V that high, nor TO4E, nor VP6DIA, though they all deserved to be on that list if for nothing else going to entities that were desperately needed. Points for effort and all that. ST0RY was pretty good from what I remember, but I have Sudan on 10, 15 and 20, the only bands I could have gotten them on. Never heard them on 12 or 17, though I was trying. From my personal experience, I would have ranked AH3D highest. They were absolutely first-rate. They were well-ordered with a good signal and even when it was a madhouse for the first few days, they always ran a good crisp-clean operation. I think it took me 2 days to get through for the first time, and I got them on three bands, total. Understand, of course, that the 425 list is Italian/EU centric, and I wonder how well they were able to get a signal from Johnston into the EU. I like any operation that has worked through their piles so quickly that in the waning days they're essentially begging. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
Peter Dougherty wrote:
I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc, that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes, focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and I'm not in the EU. However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a valid complaint. No, you wouldn't. The "objectives" are subjective to begin with, and even though most of them encompass "working as many as possible", this typically means within the ability, capacity, moods and limitations of the operators. Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be interested. I know I wouldn't; hell, collecting napkins would be more exciting. Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work. We have a choice of waiting our turn or walking away. We certainly don't have a right to complain on the air, jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently. That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity. As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy dx-ped. I'm not saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they should be experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10 top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis. I'll take both and work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other time. Where's the urgency? It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified people he or she can find. Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a hobby, after all. Let me just say that I personally spend an disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it seriously. In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the operation. And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases. If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests for 160m, RTTY, QSL info, listening for "my friend", etc. To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$ rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it with reasonable clarity. I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit. Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300 (who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)? This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well. OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it, other than the free Internet steam venting? You talk about such operations causing "more ill-will than goodwill". I say, good for them and the more the better. Dxing is supposed to be a game of chance, patience and skills, not an instant gratification for the gimme generation. What about rare DXCC entities with native ops? Should they all follow our demand for first class skills or risk being dismissed as "bad op", "lid", "deaf", "horrible", "idiot", "$$$", etc. (all of these courtesy of the Cluster police). That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+ hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible. I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal instead, so this is a moot point. by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available. Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation. What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be serious? Remember again that this is not a business... That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped, whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and effort" and that anyone should care about that. Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of New Bands out of their operation. Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped. Alternatively, present a valid case for the compensation that a dx-ped should be legally obligated to, should they fail to QSO the plaintiffs who invested their time and energy in this endeavor. Can you hear yourself? If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9 operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them. Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc. And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or "poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct? What makes you think anyone owes you a QSO? That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped. There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation. You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become. It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts. If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine. C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation. And so it won't. Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the dx-peds be? I, for example, believe that all people should respect each others' rights without exceptions, but I won't act surprised and slighted when I encounter racist bigots and religious lunatics - I'll try to reason with them or cross to the other side of the street. There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse. One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid. I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO within those accepted parameters. If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with which I agree to a point. So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an S9+ signal??? See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO* want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be grateful for the same chance. You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power. Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well, I'll have my 200 footer next year. 73 ... WA7AA You want fries with that? Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you. Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew? -- Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly |
Peter Dougherty wrote:
I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc, that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes, focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and I'm not in the EU. However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a valid complaint. No, you wouldn't. The "objectives" are subjective to begin with, and even though most of them encompass "working as many as possible", this typically means within the ability, capacity, moods and limitations of the operators. Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be interested. I know I wouldn't; hell, collecting napkins would be more exciting. Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work. We have a choice of waiting our turn or walking away. We certainly don't have a right to complain on the air, jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently. That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity. As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy dx-ped. I'm not saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they should be experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10 top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis. I'll take both and work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other time. Where's the urgency? It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified people he or she can find. Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a hobby, after all. Let me just say that I personally spend an disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it seriously. In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the operation. And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases. If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests for 160m, RTTY, QSL info, listening for "my friend", etc. To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$ rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it with reasonable clarity. I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit. Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300 (who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)? This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well. OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it, other than the free Internet steam venting? You talk about such operations causing "more ill-will than goodwill". I say, good for them and the more the better. Dxing is supposed to be a game of chance, patience and skills, not an instant gratification for the gimme generation. What about rare DXCC entities with native ops? Should they all follow our demand for first class skills or risk being dismissed as "bad op", "lid", "deaf", "horrible", "idiot", "$$$", etc. (all of these courtesy of the Cluster police). That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+ hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible. I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal instead, so this is a moot point. by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available. Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation. What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be serious? Remember again that this is not a business... That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped, whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and effort" and that anyone should care about that. Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of New Bands out of their operation. Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped. Alternatively, present a valid case for the compensation that a dx-ped should be legally obligated to, should they fail to QSO the plaintiffs who invested their time and energy in this endeavor. Can you hear yourself? If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9 operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them. Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc. And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or "poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct? What makes you think anyone owes you a QSO? That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped. There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation. You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become. It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts. If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine. C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation. And so it won't. Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the dx-peds be? I, for example, believe that all people should respect each others' rights without exceptions, but I won't act surprised and slighted when I encounter racist bigots and religious lunatics - I'll try to reason with them or cross to the other side of the street. There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse. One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid. I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO within those accepted parameters. If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with which I agree to a point. So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an S9+ signal??? See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO* want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be grateful for the same chance. You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power. Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well, I'll have my 200 footer next year. 73 ... WA7AA You want fries with that? Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you. Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew? -- Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly |
Zoran Brlecic said :
Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be interested. I'm not saying we should always have 10 or 15 major operations going at any one time, but I am asking that in the future, when DXpedition planners are planning something big to an entity only up every decade or more, that they please put some of their energy into making a schedule that will permit NA, EU and JA (the three principal targets of any major operation) a good chance to work them on every possible band they operate on. Sometimes it's impossible (never in darkness at the same time as a target, MUF well below 24 MHz, etc), and that's the way it goes, but if it's possible, please try to plan the best times, and keep to those objectives. Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work. Not saying it should be a rule or regulation; It's mrerely a plea from a somewhat latecomer to the world of DXing (antenna restrictions over the last 22 years). I had a pretty good total in Canada when I lived there, but now I'm living in the US, so I had to start everything over when I got my US call in 2002. We certainly don't have a right to complain on the air, If we're not QRMing them (or anybody else), yes we do. Wonderful thing, that first amendment. jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently. Agreed. That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity. As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy dx-ped. Then you must be in ham-heaven with some of this current crop, and may you enjoy your challenges to the fullest degree possible. My steeeenking opeeenion is that I'd rather see better ops at the pointy ends of the pileup. ...work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other time. Where's the urgency? We're at the beginning of the decline of cycle 23. We have *maybe* 12-18 months of good or even marginal propagation left before a long, quiet five-to-six year hiatus. While I hope I'm still around and in good health when cycle 24 kicks up, I'd rather get some rare entities now if I can. There are also plenty of older hams who may not see cycle 24, and for their sakes, I hope they can work these rare entities while they can. You tell me...what was the rush to work the P5? It's entirely likely we'll never see another P5 in many of our lifetimes. I came into the game too late to get KP1 or KP5 -- unless there's a complete change of heart in Washington (unlikely), those entities are off-limits forever. You never know if a politically unstable entity that today permits (or tolerates) amateur radio may become more entrenched and bans it outright. I'm not picking one example here, rather I'm speaking metaphorically. However, I'd venture to say, we won't see a 3C0 operation again for a very long time It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified people he or she can find. Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a hobby, after all. It's a hobby I take very seriously, yes. For a DXpedition leader, it IS a job in the sense that they're managing large sums of money, human resources, handling interesting global logistical problems that would give most corporate shipping managers fits, fundraising, etc, etc. Let me just say that I personally spend an disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it seriously. I'm somewhat competitive in nature and I enjoy taking DX seriously. If I ever can field a good contest station, or be part of a good contest group easily from where I'm located, I'll take that equally seriously. And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases. If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests for 160m, RTTY, QSL info The need for good language skills comes from the need to control pileups. Any numbnuts can say fivenineqrz, but it helps if they can understand the frequently silly phonetics I've heard and all the nonsense that I'm sure they have to put up with. It IS a legitimate question to ask if they're going to show up on a different band or mode if you happen to need them on it and aren't sure if they're able to help. listening for "my friend", etc. Dont get me started on that one...This is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves. Gaaah. I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit. There's a difference between the two types of operation, although they are becomming increasingly similar. At the very least, though, they have to be able to clearly understand the calling stations. Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300 (who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)? This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well. OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it, other than the free Internet steam venting? Well, I'll admit to some of that being the case. What I "propose" is just this -- I'm hoping some future DXpeditioners reading this thread will please take heed of the points that have been made. Maybe, just *maybe* ONE future DXpeditioner will indeed take these points to heart and will field a better operation as a result. I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal instead, so this is a moot point. They may not plan to have a crappy signal, but they often *do* have just that -- and not just because propagation is bad. This can be because they don't take along reliable amps, generators, spare parts/tubes or any combination of these. Some use compromised antennas for any number of reasons that perhaps more planning--or fundraising--could solve. Maybe some don't want to trudge equipment up to a good vantage point of the QTH and just "make do" with a poorer solution. Who knows why. Some times it can't be helped. Some times they can get a good signal to EU and JA, but nothing to the US (or some combination of these factors). So be it. What I'm taking issue with is those operations that *can* help it, just choose not to, or who *could* be better but haven't taken enough things into considerations. What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be serious? A serious operation is something that costs at least fifty to a hundred grand, takes months to plan and execute and goes to a highly-desired entity. If the members who do this don't approach the venture with some business savvy, they're setting themselves up for failure to begin with, in my opinion. Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped. Please. Don't be ridiculous about it. I don't want anything in amateur radio operations to be "guaranteed," except perhaps that my equipment won't short out and electrocute me when I plug it in, and that it will be reparired free if it's defective and I bought it new. Out of a DXpedition, I simply want a fair shot at possibly making a contact. True, nothing in the rules, spoken or non, says anybody HAS to do this, but I'm asking operations in the fututre to *please* be considerate and play as fairly as possible by putting out a good signal, working split, not taking out of turn callers, etc, etc, etc. The don't HAVE to, but I think we all can agree that it would be nice if they WOULD. And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or "poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct? Poor condx are beyond anybody's ability to overcome. Mother Nature holds all the cards here. Mother nature, on the other hand, doesn't sit and work fat EU signals all day long when W6s and W7s are screaming their lungs off on those days there's no propagation to JA. What makes you think anyone owes you a QSO? Nobody. See above. You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become. In that case, I'll take banal, thanks g. You go enjoy your napkin collection; I'll happily work as many new ones as propagation, my equipment and time allows. Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the dx-peds be? We should all strive to be the best and do the best that we can. I live my life with that aim every day. I may not always succeed, but I always strive to be the best that I can be at whatever. I appreciate those who run operations as well as possible. If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with which I agree to a point. Absolutely, and once we can afford to move from our rented apartment to a house where I can set up what I want, I'll do just that. But even if I can work the worst, ill-planned, crappily-executed DXpedition and get Upper Dipthong confirmed on all bands and modes, that won't make the operation any better, and I'll still not have a lot of kind words to say about it. It's not about whether *I* can work them or not. It's about how good a chance the average station has, and how well the operators take into consideration the needs of their audience. Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well, I'll have my 200 footer next year. Best of luck in doing so. You're also extremely fortunate to be living on the west coast, however, where you have a *much* greater shot at working the rare Asian and south pacific entities that are never even a blip on my S-meter. Granted, I have an advantage on 80M, but I think I'd rather have west-coast DX than east. Unfortunately, my Real Life is on the east coast. sigh. Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew? Freedom Fries. Puh-leeze. They were actually invented in Belgium, but still. My wife was born in Paris; I was born in Montreal. You'll never hear any French bashing from this ham, despite how much I occasionally disagree with the governments of those places. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
Zoran Brlecic said :
Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be interested. I'm not saying we should always have 10 or 15 major operations going at any one time, but I am asking that in the future, when DXpedition planners are planning something big to an entity only up every decade or more, that they please put some of their energy into making a schedule that will permit NA, EU and JA (the three principal targets of any major operation) a good chance to work them on every possible band they operate on. Sometimes it's impossible (never in darkness at the same time as a target, MUF well below 24 MHz, etc), and that's the way it goes, but if it's possible, please try to plan the best times, and keep to those objectives. Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work. Not saying it should be a rule or regulation; It's mrerely a plea from a somewhat latecomer to the world of DXing (antenna restrictions over the last 22 years). I had a pretty good total in Canada when I lived there, but now I'm living in the US, so I had to start everything over when I got my US call in 2002. We certainly don't have a right to complain on the air, If we're not QRMing them (or anybody else), yes we do. Wonderful thing, that first amendment. jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently. Agreed. That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity. As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy dx-ped. Then you must be in ham-heaven with some of this current crop, and may you enjoy your challenges to the fullest degree possible. My steeeenking opeeenion is that I'd rather see better ops at the pointy ends of the pileup. ...work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other time. Where's the urgency? We're at the beginning of the decline of cycle 23. We have *maybe* 12-18 months of good or even marginal propagation left before a long, quiet five-to-six year hiatus. While I hope I'm still around and in good health when cycle 24 kicks up, I'd rather get some rare entities now if I can. There are also plenty of older hams who may not see cycle 24, and for their sakes, I hope they can work these rare entities while they can. You tell me...what was the rush to work the P5? It's entirely likely we'll never see another P5 in many of our lifetimes. I came into the game too late to get KP1 or KP5 -- unless there's a complete change of heart in Washington (unlikely), those entities are off-limits forever. You never know if a politically unstable entity that today permits (or tolerates) amateur radio may become more entrenched and bans it outright. I'm not picking one example here, rather I'm speaking metaphorically. However, I'd venture to say, we won't see a 3C0 operation again for a very long time It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified people he or she can find. Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a hobby, after all. It's a hobby I take very seriously, yes. For a DXpedition leader, it IS a job in the sense that they're managing large sums of money, human resources, handling interesting global logistical problems that would give most corporate shipping managers fits, fundraising, etc, etc. Let me just say that I personally spend an disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it seriously. I'm somewhat competitive in nature and I enjoy taking DX seriously. If I ever can field a good contest station, or be part of a good contest group easily from where I'm located, I'll take that equally seriously. And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases. If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests for 160m, RTTY, QSL info The need for good language skills comes from the need to control pileups. Any numbnuts can say fivenineqrz, but it helps if they can understand the frequently silly phonetics I've heard and all the nonsense that I'm sure they have to put up with. It IS a legitimate question to ask if they're going to show up on a different band or mode if you happen to need them on it and aren't sure if they're able to help. listening for "my friend", etc. Dont get me started on that one...This is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves. Gaaah. I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit. There's a difference between the two types of operation, although they are becomming increasingly similar. At the very least, though, they have to be able to clearly understand the calling stations. Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300 (who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)? This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well. OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it, other than the free Internet steam venting? Well, I'll admit to some of that being the case. What I "propose" is just this -- I'm hoping some future DXpeditioners reading this thread will please take heed of the points that have been made. Maybe, just *maybe* ONE future DXpeditioner will indeed take these points to heart and will field a better operation as a result. I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal instead, so this is a moot point. They may not plan to have a crappy signal, but they often *do* have just that -- and not just because propagation is bad. This can be because they don't take along reliable amps, generators, spare parts/tubes or any combination of these. Some use compromised antennas for any number of reasons that perhaps more planning--or fundraising--could solve. Maybe some don't want to trudge equipment up to a good vantage point of the QTH and just "make do" with a poorer solution. Who knows why. Some times it can't be helped. Some times they can get a good signal to EU and JA, but nothing to the US (or some combination of these factors). So be it. What I'm taking issue with is those operations that *can* help it, just choose not to, or who *could* be better but haven't taken enough things into considerations. What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be serious? A serious operation is something that costs at least fifty to a hundred grand, takes months to plan and execute and goes to a highly-desired entity. If the members who do this don't approach the venture with some business savvy, they're setting themselves up for failure to begin with, in my opinion. Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped. Please. Don't be ridiculous about it. I don't want anything in amateur radio operations to be "guaranteed," except perhaps that my equipment won't short out and electrocute me when I plug it in, and that it will be reparired free if it's defective and I bought it new. Out of a DXpedition, I simply want a fair shot at possibly making a contact. True, nothing in the rules, spoken or non, says anybody HAS to do this, but I'm asking operations in the fututre to *please* be considerate and play as fairly as possible by putting out a good signal, working split, not taking out of turn callers, etc, etc, etc. The don't HAVE to, but I think we all can agree that it would be nice if they WOULD. And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or "poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct? Poor condx are beyond anybody's ability to overcome. Mother Nature holds all the cards here. Mother nature, on the other hand, doesn't sit and work fat EU signals all day long when W6s and W7s are screaming their lungs off on those days there's no propagation to JA. What makes you think anyone owes you a QSO? Nobody. See above. You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become. In that case, I'll take banal, thanks g. You go enjoy your napkin collection; I'll happily work as many new ones as propagation, my equipment and time allows. Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the dx-peds be? We should all strive to be the best and do the best that we can. I live my life with that aim every day. I may not always succeed, but I always strive to be the best that I can be at whatever. I appreciate those who run operations as well as possible. If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with which I agree to a point. Absolutely, and once we can afford to move from our rented apartment to a house where I can set up what I want, I'll do just that. But even if I can work the worst, ill-planned, crappily-executed DXpedition and get Upper Dipthong confirmed on all bands and modes, that won't make the operation any better, and I'll still not have a lot of kind words to say about it. It's not about whether *I* can work them or not. It's about how good a chance the average station has, and how well the operators take into consideration the needs of their audience. Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well, I'll have my 200 footer next year. Best of luck in doing so. You're also extremely fortunate to be living on the west coast, however, where you have a *much* greater shot at working the rare Asian and south pacific entities that are never even a blip on my S-meter. Granted, I have an advantage on 80M, but I think I'd rather have west-coast DX than east. Unfortunately, my Real Life is on the east coast. sigh. Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew? Freedom Fries. Puh-leeze. They were actually invented in Belgium, but still. My wife was born in Paris; I was born in Montreal. You'll never hear any French bashing from this ham, despite how much I occasionally disagree with the governments of those places. 73 de Peter, W2IRT (ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX) Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net |
Peter Dougherty wrote:
Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well, I'll have my 200 footer next year. Best of luck in doing so. You're also extremely fortunate to be living on the west coast, however, where you have a *much* greater shot at working the rare Asian and south pacific entities that are never even a blip on my S-meter. Granted, I have an advantage on 80M, but I think I'd rather have west-coast DX than east. Unfortunately, my Real Life is on the east coast. sigh. Uhm... you might want to reconsider this one. I also lived in Canada (VA3GW) for eight years, so I know first hand the difference in propagation. Of course, every part of the world has condx somewhere, but at least on the East Coast you have free access to Europe almost all the time, while EU signals are ancient history here on 10-15m, and on 17 and lower they suffer from the auroral path attenuation, i.e. nothing heard. Maybe no big deal for casual dxing, but there is no way in hell anyone from the left coast ever wins any contest over the East Coasters. Right now, there are days when I literally hear nothing on the bands (granted, I only monitor 17m and up on account of the pathetic wire that passes off as an antenna). Those napkins are starting to look good. I like the weather much more than VE3, though... Go, Raptors. 73 ... Zoran WA7AA -- Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly |
Peter Dougherty wrote:
Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well, I'll have my 200 footer next year. Best of luck in doing so. You're also extremely fortunate to be living on the west coast, however, where you have a *much* greater shot at working the rare Asian and south pacific entities that are never even a blip on my S-meter. Granted, I have an advantage on 80M, but I think I'd rather have west-coast DX than east. Unfortunately, my Real Life is on the east coast. sigh. Uhm... you might want to reconsider this one. I also lived in Canada (VA3GW) for eight years, so I know first hand the difference in propagation. Of course, every part of the world has condx somewhere, but at least on the East Coast you have free access to Europe almost all the time, while EU signals are ancient history here on 10-15m, and on 17 and lower they suffer from the auroral path attenuation, i.e. nothing heard. Maybe no big deal for casual dxing, but there is no way in hell anyone from the left coast ever wins any contest over the East Coasters. Right now, there are days when I literally hear nothing on the bands (granted, I only monitor 17m and up on account of the pathetic wire that passes off as an antenna). Those napkins are starting to look good. I like the weather much more than VE3, though... Go, Raptors. 73 ... Zoran WA7AA -- Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly |
Oh, I'll get hammered for this but here goes. I'd argue that the skill
level of the operator is inversely proportional to the width of the split. Martti might ask for stations to call up 5 to 10, or maybe 5 to 15. He has a very high q/minute rate. When some ops say listening up, and they really mean listening up 5 to 50, their rates go the the dumper because they are spinning the dial way up trying to find one they can make out and sometimes call a guy who could care less, stepping on other operators all the while. |
Oh, I'll get hammered for this but here goes. I'd argue that the skill
level of the operator is inversely proportional to the width of the split. Martti might ask for stations to call up 5 to 10, or maybe 5 to 15. He has a very high q/minute rate. When some ops say listening up, and they really mean listening up 5 to 50, their rates go the the dumper because they are spinning the dial way up trying to find one they can make out and sometimes call a guy who could care less, stepping on other operators all the while. |
Walt Davidson wrote:
EU signals are ancient history here on 10-15m Oh really? I worked a whole bunch of W6, W7 and VE7 on 15m in the ARRL DX Contest - both the CW and the SSB sections. How many have you worked outside of contests? 73 ... WA7AA -- Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly |
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