(Geoffrey S. Mendelson) ha scritto:

In article , Bob M. wrote:

The rest of your symptoms are very strange. I can offer no help at all.
Obviously something is wrong, but I can't even begin to tell you what to
look for.

They are very common. Kenwood potted the main PLL in a rubber compound
to isolate from thermal changes and mechanical shock. In plain English to
slow down the effect of temperature changes and prevent frequency jumping
if you tapped the radio, or when mobile went over a bump.

The problem is that over the years the rubber compound started to absorb
water from the air. If you were in a totaly dry enviornment this would
never happen. I have an R5000 (same problem). When I lived in the U.S. I
kept the radio in a basement that was so wet everything would rot in a
few days, so we kept a dehumidifier running and the basement was very
dry. The radio never had a problem.

After sitting in a box and then a freight container over the ocean, it
picked up enough moisture to fail in about 3 months.

The fix is simple in theory and is documented on the Kenwood web site.
You remove the shield from the main PLL, remove the rubber compound,
replace any parts damaged due to corrosion and readjust the PLL.

An experienced technician, such as Cliff at AAVID, can do it for
about $100 for parts and labor. Unless you have the correct tools
and equipment, I'm not sure you can do it, but many people have.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson 972-54-608-069
Icq/AIM Uin: 2661079 MSN IM: (Not for email)
Carp are bottom feeders, koi are too, and not surprisingly are ferrets.


Well, others already said that, but I have looked pratically
every board in the TS-450 and found no rubber compunds.
Indeed, now I know buch better my rig and I was amazed on how
well the parts are put and fixed and how it is easy to unmount
them.

What I found up to know is in another message.

"MD" ha scritto:


"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
...
In article , Bob M. wrote:

The rest of your symptoms are very strange. I can offer no help at all.
Obviously something is wrong, but I can't even begin to tell you what to
look for.

They are very common. Kenwood potted the main PLL in a rubber compound
to isolate from thermal changes and mechanical shock. In plain English to
slow down the effect of temperature changes and prevent frequency jumping
if you tapped the radio, or when mobile went over a bump.

The TS450's do NOT use the compund that caused so many problems in the
TS440's. I have owned both.

The fix is simple in theory and is documented on the Kenwood web site.
You remove the shield from the main PLL, remove the rubber compound,
replace any parts damaged due to corrosion and readjust the PLL.

AS I said there is no compound in the 450.


If you are experiencing a row of dots on your display, this is a sign your
VCO is out of lock. If you can borrow a service manual, it is very easy to
realign.



That's right!
In fact I read again carefully the istruction manual, while
looking for the service one. I was so used to the disabled beep,
frankly annoying, that I didn't hear the error message!

First of all, I replaced the lithium battery, but this in fact
has nothing to do with the symptoms. Anyway, I put a battery
holder in place of the soldered contacts, thus in the future it
will be a 5 minutes work to change the battery. Apparently, I
didn't damage any cmos circuit...

Then, when I powered the rig, all parameters were of course
reset, so the beep was enabled and I noticed that when the
display became a row of dots, the speaker played "UL" in Morse
code. This is the error message for "PLL unlocked".

I unmounted then the CAR board and opened the case of the PLL
board, which is right under the CAR (and both under the speaker).
I detached and attached again all connectors, to be sure it was
not a bad contact.

Then I measured the 5V and 8V pratically everywhere and the
voltages where there. Unfortunately I don't have a frequency
meter with me now and the only I have was bought at an hamfest -
never sure it worked well...
So I used an handheld, for higher frequencies, and another HF rig
I have, for the lower ones. Using these radios as probes, I found
that the VCO is probably working well: I tuned to 995 kHz and,
since the first IF is at 73.050 MHz, the VCO should be at exactly
74 MHZ. And there I found it!
Moving the tuning to 1995 kHz of course moved the VCO to 75 MHz
etc.

The PLL unit should also provide a fixed 64.220 MHz signal for
the second IF, and this one was missing! No signal, or probably
on a different frequency. This is the first real problem I have
noticed.

Then I checked on the CAR unit the 8.375 MHz for the third IF and
the 455 kHz for the sideband detector. Both were present, even if
peraphs somewhat lower in frequency (I estimated 453 kHz). This
could be the cause for the distorted reception in SSB.
Also the fixed 20 MHz signal was there.

So, what I need now is to know how to realign the PLL unit, to
obtain again the 64.220 MHz signal that is missing (but for this
I will also check again cables...).

Thanks for now to everybody.

I have also read the advice about sending the rig to a Kenwood
service center. Well, this is the first thing I tried, but
apparently it looks very complicated in my country to be serviced
by Kenwood at the moment...

James

"MD" ha scritto:


"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
...
In article , Bob M. wrote:

The rest of your symptoms are very strange. I can offer no help at all.
Obviously something is wrong, but I can't even begin to tell you what to
look for.

They are very common. Kenwood potted the main PLL in a rubber compound
to isolate from thermal changes and mechanical shock. In plain English to
slow down the effect of temperature changes and prevent frequency jumping
if you tapped the radio, or when mobile went over a bump.

The TS450's do NOT use the compund that caused so many problems in the
TS440's. I have owned both.

The fix is simple in theory and is documented on the Kenwood web site.
You remove the shield from the main PLL, remove the rubber compound,
replace any parts damaged due to corrosion and readjust the PLL.

AS I said there is no compound in the 450.


If you are experiencing a row of dots on your display, this is a sign your
VCO is out of lock. If you can borrow a service manual, it is very easy to
realign.



That's right!
In fact I read again carefully the istruction manual, while
looking for the service one. I was so used to the disabled beep,
frankly annoying, that I didn't hear the error message!

First of all, I replaced the lithium battery, but this in fact
has nothing to do with the symptoms. Anyway, I put a battery
holder in place of the soldered contacts, thus in the future it
will be a 5 minutes work to change the battery. Apparently, I
didn't damage any cmos circuit...

Then, when I powered the rig, all parameters were of course
reset, so the beep was enabled and I noticed that when the
display became a row of dots, the speaker played "UL" in Morse
code. This is the error message for "PLL unlocked".

I unmounted then the CAR board and opened the case of the PLL
board, which is right under the CAR (and both under the speaker).
I detached and attached again all connectors, to be sure it was
not a bad contact.

Then I measured the 5V and 8V pratically everywhere and the
voltages where there. Unfortunately I don't have a frequency
meter with me now and the only I have was bought at an hamfest -
never sure it worked well...
So I used an handheld, for higher frequencies, and another HF rig
I have, for the lower ones. Using these radios as probes, I found
that the VCO is probably working well: I tuned to 995 kHz and,
since the first IF is at 73.050 MHz, the VCO should be at exactly
74 MHZ. And there I found it!
Moving the tuning to 1995 kHz of course moved the VCO to 75 MHz
etc.

The PLL unit should also provide a fixed 64.220 MHz signal for
the second IF, and this one was missing! No signal, or probably
on a different frequency. This is the first real problem I have
noticed.

Then I checked on the CAR unit the 8.375 MHz for the third IF and
the 455 kHz for the sideband detector. Both were present, even if
peraphs somewhat lower in frequency (I estimated 453 kHz). This
could be the cause for the distorted reception in SSB.
Also the fixed 20 MHz signal was there.

So, what I need now is to know how to realign the PLL unit, to
obtain again the 64.220 MHz signal that is missing (but for this
I will also check again cables...).

Thanks for now to everybody.

I have also read the advice about sending the rig to a Kenwood
service center. Well, this is the first thing I tried, but
apparently it looks very complicated in my country to be serviced
by Kenwood at the moment...

James

Don't know about BPL, but VDSL goes from 138KHz to 12MHz and has 4096 tones. Not as much potential for a problem, as it's all twisted pair rather than power lines.

Frank Dresser wrote:

"Walter Treftz" wrote in message
...
Here's what we do --- we built a (legal) KW rig into a van, install a
vertical-
radiating antenna, cut out the roof and replace it with a fiberglass
sheet. Drive directly underneath a power line with BPL running. Run lots
of QSO's, and
have at it. We're legal. Induced RF just might make them think twice
about it.
Yes, I know Ashcrofts boys are reading this --- Hi, muthers -- I live at

the callbook address. Bring some beer when you come visiting.
N4GL


Do you mean the way CBers made channel 5 unwatchable 25 years ago?

I don't know much about BPL, but I think the TV analogy might hold. Given
the bandwidth of BPL, there must be dozens, maybe hundreds of channels on
the powerline. Can every one, or most of them, be wiped out? I'm thinking
somebody came up with some pretty robust ways to deal with interference.

But what if it does stop BPL? BPL isn't being backed because it's a
technically elegant system. It's being backed by politics. Rural areas
were critically important in the last Presidential election, and any
candidiate would love to say something like "MY OPPONENT IS STOPPING ONE
FORM OF HIGH SPEED INTERNET DISTRIBUTION ON BEHALF OF HIS PALS IN THE
TELECOMMUNCATIONS INDUSTRY, BUT I PROMISE TO BRING IT IN, RIGHT ON YOUR
POWER LINE, AS SOON AS I'M ELECTED!!" Of course, that would be a political
misrepresentation, but politicans get away with worse every day. Politics
turns into a numbers game.

How many politicians or bureaucrats are saying anything negative about this
goofy scheme? Politicians may not know physics, but they do know how to
count.

Frank Dresser

Don't know about BPL, but VDSL goes from 138KHz to 12MHz and has 4096 tones. Not as much potential for a problem, as it's all twisted pair rather than power lines.

Frank Dresser wrote:

"Walter Treftz" wrote in message
...
Here's what we do --- we built a (legal) KW rig into a van, install a
vertical-
radiating antenna, cut out the roof and replace it with a fiberglass
sheet. Drive directly underneath a power line with BPL running. Run lots
of QSO's, and
have at it. We're legal. Induced RF just might make them think twice
about it.
Yes, I know Ashcrofts boys are reading this --- Hi, muthers -- I live at

the callbook address. Bring some beer when you come visiting.
N4GL


Do you mean the way CBers made channel 5 unwatchable 25 years ago?

I don't know much about BPL, but I think the TV analogy might hold. Given
the bandwidth of BPL, there must be dozens, maybe hundreds of channels on
the powerline. Can every one, or most of them, be wiped out? I'm thinking
somebody came up with some pretty robust ways to deal with interference.

But what if it does stop BPL? BPL isn't being backed because it's a
technically elegant system. It's being backed by politics. Rural areas
were critically important in the last Presidential election, and any
candidiate would love to say something like "MY OPPONENT IS STOPPING ONE
FORM OF HIGH SPEED INTERNET DISTRIBUTION ON BEHALF OF HIS PALS IN THE
TELECOMMUNCATIONS INDUSTRY, BUT I PROMISE TO BRING IT IN, RIGHT ON YOUR
POWER LINE, AS SOON AS I'M ELECTED!!" Of course, that would be a political
misrepresentation, but politicans get away with worse every day. Politics
turns into a numbers game.

How many politicians or bureaucrats are saying anything negative about this
goofy scheme? Politicians may not know physics, but they do know how to
count.

Frank Dresser

Don't know about BPL, but VDSL goes from 138KHz to 12MHz and has 4096 tones. Not as much potential for a problem, as it's all twisted pair rather than power lines.

Frank Dresser wrote:

"Walter Treftz" wrote in message
...
Here's what we do --- we built a (legal) KW rig into a van, install a
vertical-
radiating antenna, cut out the roof and replace it with a fiberglass
sheet. Drive directly underneath a power line with BPL running. Run lots
of QSO's, and
have at it. We're legal. Induced RF just might make them think twice
about it.
Yes, I know Ashcrofts boys are reading this --- Hi, muthers -- I live at

the callbook address. Bring some beer when you come visiting.
N4GL


Do you mean the way CBers made channel 5 unwatchable 25 years ago?

I don't know much about BPL, but I think the TV analogy might hold. Given
the bandwidth of BPL, there must be dozens, maybe hundreds of channels on
the powerline. Can every one, or most of them, be wiped out? I'm thinking
somebody came up with some pretty robust ways to deal with interference.

But what if it does stop BPL? BPL isn't being backed because it's a
technically elegant system. It's being backed by politics. Rural areas
were critically important in the last Presidential election, and any
candidiate would love to say something like "MY OPPONENT IS STOPPING ONE
FORM OF HIGH SPEED INTERNET DISTRIBUTION ON BEHALF OF HIS PALS IN THE
TELECOMMUNCATIONS INDUSTRY, BUT I PROMISE TO BRING IT IN, RIGHT ON YOUR
POWER LINE, AS SOON AS I'M ELECTED!!" Of course, that would be a political
misrepresentation, but politicans get away with worse every day. Politics
turns into a numbers game.

How many politicians or bureaucrats are saying anything negative about this
goofy scheme? Politicians may not know physics, but they do know how to
count.

Frank Dresser

Don't know about BPL, but VDSL goes from 138KHz to 12MHz and has 4096 tones. Not as much potential for a problem, as it's all twisted pair rather than power lines.

Frank Dresser wrote:

"Walter Treftz" wrote in message
...
Here's what we do --- we built a (legal) KW rig into a van, install a
vertical-
radiating antenna, cut out the roof and replace it with a fiberglass
sheet. Drive directly underneath a power line with BPL running. Run lots
of QSO's, and
have at it. We're legal. Induced RF just might make them think twice
about it.
Yes, I know Ashcrofts boys are reading this --- Hi, muthers -- I live at

the callbook address. Bring some beer when you come visiting.
N4GL


Do you mean the way CBers made channel 5 unwatchable 25 years ago?

I don't know much about BPL, but I think the TV analogy might hold. Given
the bandwidth of BPL, there must be dozens, maybe hundreds of channels on
the powerline. Can every one, or most of them, be wiped out? I'm thinking
somebody came up with some pretty robust ways to deal with interference.

But what if it does stop BPL? BPL isn't being backed because it's a
technically elegant system. It's being backed by politics. Rural areas
were critically important in the last Presidential election, and any
candidiate would love to say something like "MY OPPONENT IS STOPPING ONE
FORM OF HIGH SPEED INTERNET DISTRIBUTION ON BEHALF OF HIS PALS IN THE
TELECOMMUNCATIONS INDUSTRY, BUT I PROMISE TO BRING IT IN, RIGHT ON YOUR
POWER LINE, AS SOON AS I'M ELECTED!!" Of course, that would be a political
misrepresentation, but politicans get away with worse every day. Politics
turns into a numbers game.

How many politicians or bureaucrats are saying anything negative about this
goofy scheme? Politicians may not know physics, but they do know how to
count.

Frank Dresser

Don't know about BPL, but VDSL goes from 138KHz to 12MHz and has 4096 tones. Not as much potential for a problem, as it's all twisted pair rather than power lines.

Frank Dresser wrote:

"Walter Treftz" wrote in message
...
Here's what we do --- we built a (legal) KW rig into a van, install a
vertical-
radiating antenna, cut out the roof and replace it with a fiberglass
sheet. Drive directly underneath a power line with BPL running. Run lots
of QSO's, and
have at it. We're legal. Induced RF just might make them think twice
about it.
Yes, I know Ashcrofts boys are reading this --- Hi, muthers -- I live at

the callbook address. Bring some beer when you come visiting.
N4GL


Do you mean the way CBers made channel 5 unwatchable 25 years ago?

I don't know much about BPL, but I think the TV analogy might hold. Given
the bandwidth of BPL, there must be dozens, maybe hundreds of channels on
the powerline. Can every one, or most of them, be wiped out? I'm thinking
somebody came up with some pretty robust ways to deal with interference.

But what if it does stop BPL? BPL isn't being backed because it's a
technically elegant system. It's being backed by politics. Rural areas
were critically important in the last Presidential election, and any
candidiate would love to say something like "MY OPPONENT IS STOPPING ONE
FORM OF HIGH SPEED INTERNET DISTRIBUTION ON BEHALF OF HIS PALS IN THE
TELECOMMUNCATIONS INDUSTRY, BUT I PROMISE TO BRING IT IN, RIGHT ON YOUR
POWER LINE, AS SOON AS I'M ELECTED!!" Of course, that would be a political
misrepresentation, but politicans get away with worse every day. Politics
turns into a numbers game.

How many politicians or bureaucrats are saying anything negative about this
goofy scheme? Politicians may not know physics, but they do know how to
count.

Frank Dresser

Don't know about BPL, but VDSL goes from 138KHz to 12MHz and has 4096 tones. Not as much potential for a problem, as it's all twisted pair rather than power lines.

Frank Dresser wrote:

"Walter Treftz" wrote in message
...
Here's what we do --- we built a (legal) KW rig into a van, install a
vertical-
radiating antenna, cut out the roof and replace it with a fiberglass
sheet. Drive directly underneath a power line with BPL running. Run lots
of QSO's, and
have at it. We're legal. Induced RF just might make them think twice
about it.
Yes, I know Ashcrofts boys are reading this --- Hi, muthers -- I live at

the callbook address. Bring some beer when you come visiting.
N4GL


Do you mean the way CBers made channel 5 unwatchable 25 years ago?

I don't know much about BPL, but I think the TV analogy might hold. Given
the bandwidth of BPL, there must be dozens, maybe hundreds of channels on
the powerline. Can every one, or most of them, be wiped out? I'm thinking
somebody came up with some pretty robust ways to deal with interference.

But what if it does stop BPL? BPL isn't being backed because it's a
technically elegant system. It's being backed by politics. Rural areas
were critically important in the last Presidential election, and any
candidiate would love to say something like "MY OPPONENT IS STOPPING ONE
FORM OF HIGH SPEED INTERNET DISTRIBUTION ON BEHALF OF HIS PALS IN THE
TELECOMMUNCATIONS INDUSTRY, BUT I PROMISE TO BRING IT IN, RIGHT ON YOUR
POWER LINE, AS SOON AS I'M ELECTED!!" Of course, that would be a political
misrepresentation, but politicans get away with worse every day. Politics
turns into a numbers game.

How many politicians or bureaucrats are saying anything negative about this
goofy scheme? Politicians may not know physics, but they do know how to
count.

Frank Dresser

Don't know about BPL, but VDSL goes from 138KHz to 12MHz and has 4096 tones.
Not as much potential for a problem, as it's all twisted pair rather than
power lines.

And even at that, the VDSL industry has responded to the multiple presentations
I have given to their committees and put in 30 dB notches on amateur spectrum.

It will not be perfect, but those notches will help a lot.

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI