On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 20:58:04 +0200, "Thierry"
wrote:


"Dave Holford" wrote in message
.. .

...

Thierry wrote:
Just out of curiosity - all these measurements used the same power
meter?

Yes of course.

What meter are you using? Brand and model number? Is it measuring
"average" power -- or "peak PEP" power?

Bob
k5qwg




I don't recall ever seeing 100W on SSB with my TS-430, TS-440 or TS-570
when speaking, a steady tone will do it of course.

Hi,

This is the first time that we note this problem too and the problem was
detected by chance... :-((
All users are exprimented OM some for decades and never observe this
effect... All told me that indeed their TX cannot emit its full power in SSB
but rather 50-60% in speaking normally. So we were very surprised than one
of us could reach the full power...

Our friend used a TS-840S and some olders and show us at the radioclub what
the matter with its TX.
He nearly reaches and sometimes exceed the 100W...in SSB, something we even
can't get using a yaesu 1000 MP of the last generation !

So as he recently bought the new TS570D he immediately noticed the
difference. Even using an electret microphone (using a battery and known to
boost emissions much more than a dynamic one) he cannot get the full power
of its older TX. Therefore we did some complementary measurements and have
searched for some information. Hence this post and some others

So at first sight I suspected an error in its reading procedure, etc. But
not at all...
Someone having read my TS570D review on Internet explained me that he knew
the problem and how to solve it.

I am waiting now more detail (how to increase the signal and what about QRM,
etc).

Thierry


Dave

"Dave Holford" wrote in message
...


Thierry wrote:

Just out of curiosity - all these measurements used the same power
meter?

Two external wattmeters where used.
One is an old one from Yaesu called YS 2000 max reading 2000 W and we
selected both RMS then PEP with a switch.
The other one is a more recent of my friend. I have not its specs for the
moment.

Thierry


I don't recall ever seeing 100W on SSB with my TS-430, TS-440 or TS-570
when speaking, a steady tone will do it of course.

I confirm, hence the "misunderstanding" we all had when our friend told us
that he can get 100W in SSB...

Thierry

Dave

"Dave Holford" wrote in message
...


Thierry wrote:

Just out of curiosity - all these measurements used the same power
meter?

Two external wattmeters where used.
One is an old one from Yaesu called YS 2000 max reading 2000 W and we
selected both RMS then PEP with a switch.
The other one is a more recent of my friend. I have not its specs for the
moment.

Thierry


I don't recall ever seeing 100W on SSB with my TS-430, TS-440 or TS-570
when speaking, a steady tone will do it of course.

I confirm, hence the "misunderstanding" we all had when our friend told us
that he can get 100W in SSB...

Thierry

Dave

"Thierry" wrote in message
...

"Ed G." wrote in message
. ..


Question for Thierry: Can I assume you have a "Peak" reading
wattmeter? Otherwise, you are aware, I hope, that most wattmeters are
"average" power reading and that they can not display the peak readings of
a SSB transmitted signal.... thus they will never display close to the
100watts of a 100watt rated SSB signal; unless you are modulating the
transmitter with a test tone audio source.

Hi Ed,

Yes for sure. But I think that it rather displays the "instantaneous"
modulation not an average because when I shout at the mic or using the key
the nidddle reaches immediately the maximum without delay and speaking
normally I emit about 40-60 watts only, moving up and down at the rate of my
words.


That would be the correct reading.

60W is perhaps a bit high, but if you have the compressor turned on
you might get 60W average. Usual peak to average for SSB is a factor
of two or even three.

--

... Hank

Hank: http://horedson.home.att.net
W0RLI: http://w0rli.home.att.net

"Thierry" wrote in message
...

"Ed G." wrote in message
. ..


Question for Thierry: Can I assume you have a "Peak" reading
wattmeter? Otherwise, you are aware, I hope, that most wattmeters are
"average" power reading and that they can not display the peak readings of
a SSB transmitted signal.... thus they will never display close to the
100watts of a 100watt rated SSB signal; unless you are modulating the
transmitter with a test tone audio source.

Hi Ed,

Yes for sure. But I think that it rather displays the "instantaneous"
modulation not an average because when I shout at the mic or using the key
the nidddle reaches immediately the maximum without delay and speaking
normally I emit about 40-60 watts only, moving up and down at the rate of my
words.


That would be the correct reading.

60W is perhaps a bit high, but if you have the compressor turned on
you might get 60W average. Usual peak to average for SSB is a factor
of two or even three.

--

... Hank

Hank: http://horedson.home.att.net
W0RLI: http://w0rli.home.att.net

I am agree of course with your opinion.
If I follow strictly my idea my 570 will stay like it is, and until know I
have not made the modification
(For the ones who are interested in this mod I can send you the 2 JPG as
attachment. This fix is easy you only need a special cable to plug your mic
in the accessory plug if you want to preserve your default mic socket).

This is mainly my friend Al who want this mod because is older TS840S is
better excited and he wants to find again this power on his new rig 570 to
recah pileups, he says.

Personally, as I have told the mod is not really necessary for me as I can
use a linear if needed (although I use it very few excepting at night of
during very bad propa). But sometimes I cannot drive my amplifier due the
loss of power, my linear requesting at least 80W input to produce up to 2 kW
(that I never use, as usually I work at 500-800W output using the beam,
never more).

I retain also your comments about passive and active peak meters for the
next time. My old Yaesu YS 2000 wattmeter has to be replaced by a more
recent model and both reading, RMS and peak I have on my wattmeter, will be
necessary on my new one too.

Thierry
ON4SKY, LX3SKY

"Mark Keith" wrote in message
om...
"Thierry" wrote in message
...
Hi,

If you have an external wattmeter connected to your transmitter, can you
make a test at 100 Watts PEP and give me your true emitting power in
watts ?

Speaking normally (without shouting) in their mike with normal
compression
(10 over 25), some hams say that their wattmeter displays a power of
about
50-60 watts (of course in CW they reach 100 W)
But some arrive to move the niddle to about 100 watts in SSB using their
barefoot RTX...

This could be all over the map, depending on the type of wattmeter
used. Very few wattmeters are good at giving an accurate reading of
voice peaks. The meter movements are too slow. If someone see's the
full 100w on SSB, they either have an excellent peak reading
wattmeter, or they are overdriving their radio. I'd say the majority
#2...:/

It seems that some RTX can reach the nominal power doing a hardware
modification at the mike itself to increase the 60 w displayed in SSB to
about 100W. According these hams there is no disadvantage to make this
change.

There is no advantage either, if the mike circuit is capable of fully
driving the radio. The circuit you have is surely capable. All you
will end up doing is adding distortion, and lowering the setting you
keep your mike gain.

The problem mainly occurs of the Kenwood TS-570D (all the serie in fact)
using a handy mic or even a desk model (the ones sold by Kenwood).
The same problem occurs with the Yaesu 1000 MP (tested at 100 W).

I've never heard of any such problem. You are just being fooled by the
meter. Didn't this type thing come up a few weeks ago?
You have average reading meters, and you have type of peak reading
meters. With NORMAL drive, and average speach, you will usually see
only 25-35 watts on an average meter when doing 100w out. This is
normal!!! Don't try to pump up the gain to get more reading. You will
just overdrive.
Then you have passive peak reading meters. They are always sluggish,
and never read the full actual output. Most will average about 80w
peaks, with actual 100w peaks. All they are doing is adding a small
electrolytic cap to the meters to give some "hang time".
Then you have active peak reading meters. These will be the most
accurate, but still can't be taken as gospel as voice patterns vary.
If you can adjust your mike gain and be within the normal ALC specs
for that radio, you have enough mike drive.
If you can whistle hard into the mike, and get nearly 100w on the
meter, you have enough mike drive.
Don't worry about what you read on SSB. If you are doing 100w CW, you
should be doing it on SSB. Heck, When I run 1300w out, I usually see
only about 400w on average meter voice peaks. Don't think my voice
peaks are really 1300w? Go out and grab the end of my antenna, and get
back to me after the paramedics wake you up. :/ The bottom line.
Very, very few wattmeters are worth a hoot at measuring SSB voice
peaks. You are worrying about an issue that doesn't really exist.
Well, unless the rare case you do have a radio problem, but I doubt
it. A friend of mine runs a 570, and he's made no mention of this
"problem". Misunderstanding wattmeter action is very common among
newer hams. Thats why many overdrive, when they really are not
intending to. They are fooled by those dang blasted meters. MK

I am agree of course with your opinion.
If I follow strictly my idea my 570 will stay like it is, and until know I
have not made the modification
(For the ones who are interested in this mod I can send you the 2 JPG as
attachment. This fix is easy you only need a special cable to plug your mic
in the accessory plug if you want to preserve your default mic socket).

This is mainly my friend Al who want this mod because is older TS840S is
better excited and he wants to find again this power on his new rig 570 to
recah pileups, he says.

Personally, as I have told the mod is not really necessary for me as I can
use a linear if needed (although I use it very few excepting at night of
during very bad propa). But sometimes I cannot drive my amplifier due the
loss of power, my linear requesting at least 80W input to produce up to 2 kW
(that I never use, as usually I work at 500-800W output using the beam,
never more).

I retain also your comments about passive and active peak meters for the
next time. My old Yaesu YS 2000 wattmeter has to be replaced by a more
recent model and both reading, RMS and peak I have on my wattmeter, will be
necessary on my new one too.

Thierry
ON4SKY, LX3SKY

"Mark Keith" wrote in message
om...
"Thierry" wrote in message
...
Hi,

If you have an external wattmeter connected to your transmitter, can you
make a test at 100 Watts PEP and give me your true emitting power in
watts ?

Speaking normally (without shouting) in their mike with normal
compression
(10 over 25), some hams say that their wattmeter displays a power of
about
50-60 watts (of course in CW they reach 100 W)
But some arrive to move the niddle to about 100 watts in SSB using their
barefoot RTX...

This could be all over the map, depending on the type of wattmeter
used. Very few wattmeters are good at giving an accurate reading of
voice peaks. The meter movements are too slow. If someone see's the
full 100w on SSB, they either have an excellent peak reading
wattmeter, or they are overdriving their radio. I'd say the majority
#2...:/

It seems that some RTX can reach the nominal power doing a hardware
modification at the mike itself to increase the 60 w displayed in SSB to
about 100W. According these hams there is no disadvantage to make this
change.

There is no advantage either, if the mike circuit is capable of fully
driving the radio. The circuit you have is surely capable. All you
will end up doing is adding distortion, and lowering the setting you
keep your mike gain.

The problem mainly occurs of the Kenwood TS-570D (all the serie in fact)
using a handy mic or even a desk model (the ones sold by Kenwood).
The same problem occurs with the Yaesu 1000 MP (tested at 100 W).

I've never heard of any such problem. You are just being fooled by the
meter. Didn't this type thing come up a few weeks ago?
You have average reading meters, and you have type of peak reading
meters. With NORMAL drive, and average speach, you will usually see
only 25-35 watts on an average meter when doing 100w out. This is
normal!!! Don't try to pump up the gain to get more reading. You will
just overdrive.
Then you have passive peak reading meters. They are always sluggish,
and never read the full actual output. Most will average about 80w
peaks, with actual 100w peaks. All they are doing is adding a small
electrolytic cap to the meters to give some "hang time".
Then you have active peak reading meters. These will be the most
accurate, but still can't be taken as gospel as voice patterns vary.
If you can adjust your mike gain and be within the normal ALC specs
for that radio, you have enough mike drive.
If you can whistle hard into the mike, and get nearly 100w on the
meter, you have enough mike drive.
Don't worry about what you read on SSB. If you are doing 100w CW, you
should be doing it on SSB. Heck, When I run 1300w out, I usually see
only about 400w on average meter voice peaks. Don't think my voice
peaks are really 1300w? Go out and grab the end of my antenna, and get
back to me after the paramedics wake you up. :/ The bottom line.
Very, very few wattmeters are worth a hoot at measuring SSB voice
peaks. You are worrying about an issue that doesn't really exist.
Well, unless the rare case you do have a radio problem, but I doubt
it. A friend of mine runs a 570, and he's made no mention of this
"problem". Misunderstanding wattmeter action is very common among
newer hams. Thats why many overdrive, when they really are not
intending to. They are fooled by those dang blasted meters. MK