On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:56:50 GMT, "Dee D. Flint" wrote:

While not a violation of the international treaty, it would be a violation
of the current FCC rules. They are quite clear that Techs (at this time)
must have passed a code test to use HF.

NO! This is what the rules say:

s97.301(e) reads:

For a station having a control operator who has been
granted an operator license of Novice Class or Technician
Class and who has received credit for proficiency in
telegraphy in accordance with the international requirements.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
(followed by frequency table)


Now we have the new regs from WRC that are NOW in effect. They require no morse
code test except set down by the administration so a tech licensee should be in
compliance with the requirement set down in 97.301(e) There is no requirement
for morse code test except for the requirement by the international morse code
requirements.





The 'international requirements' (ITU-R s25.5) now read:

Administrations shall determine whether or not a person seeking a licence
to operate an amateur station shall demonstrate the ability to send and
receive texts in Morse code signals.


The ARRL tried to pull a fast one, but the way the FCC rules are written it
appears that it doesn't hold water with current regulations as set down by the
FCC.

Don't worry I'm going to get real legal advice on this.

1. FCC requires compliance with international morse code regulation.
2. The international morse code regulation is changed to something completely
different and no longer has any morse code proficiency requirement except what
the administration of that country requires.
3. The FCC, the administration of the USA, only requires the tech licensee to
comply with the morse code proficiency requirements required by international
requirements.
4. The international requirements have no requirement to know morse code.

This could be a legal loop hole.


--
The Radio Page Ham, Police Scanner, Shortwave and more.
http://www.kilowatt-radio.org/

Keith ) writes:
On 25 Jul 2003 20:01:38 GMT, (Michael Black) wrote:

What has changed is that the treaty agreement whereby all countries
issuing amateur radio licenses are obliged to have a code test of some
sort for operating below 30MHz (or, was it a higher frequency?) is now
gone.

Read the regulation. The regulation indicates that according to international
morse code requirements the CW requirement is required. Well the international
regulations do not require a morse code proficiency for HF access.
97.301(e)
I guess it all boils down to what "IS IS".

BTW, what do you care about US regs if you live in Canada?


By your interpretation, every ham in the world can start operating
on HF, no matter what their license restricts them to, merely because
the international agreement on this matter has been rescinded. Your false
interpretation would therefore apply to all countries. Besides, you
posted in newsgroups that are read by people in many countries, so
why shouldn't I comment.

The international agreement does not set the rules. While except for
Japan with their low power license I can't think of any country that
did not respect the treaty agreement, there wasn't much to keep countries
from not honoring the treaty, other than on a diplomatic level. If
someone operated on HF without passing a code test, they weren't
prosecuted by an international body, they were pursued by their
own country's enforcement body, which also set the rules that
the person was violating. Each country had to put in place rules that
reflect the agreement.

Those rules are still in effect, until they are changed.

"We had to put these rules in place because we honor the international
treaty."

That's a big difference from "You have to know morse code or else the
international boogy man will come down and toss you in jail".

The first is about implementing rules that honor an international agreement.
The second is some international law that you must respect directly.

Find some other section of your rules, and you're bound to find something
that tells you you can't operate HF with certain classes of licenses.
That's the rule that is in control. It's absolute, and not dependent
on some international treaty.

When I was a kid, there was no license here in Canada that let someone
operate without taking a code test. Some likely argued that the code
test was there because of the international agreement, but the rules
were quite clear, you couldn't operate unless you took a test, and part
of that test was a code test. Back in 1978, there was a code-free
license here, but only useable at 220MHz and up, and had a lot of
digital questions. The rules were clear; if you got that license
you could only operate on those VHF frequencies. Back in 1990, there was
restructuring, and there was a license which did not require a code test;
but it was also clear in setting out where you could operate.

For that matter, the US Technician license originally was VHF and UHF
only, yet there was a code test. Your FCC decided it was a necessary
requirement, even if the treaty did not require it in that case. It
was only in more recent decades, when 10meters was added, that the treaty
required a code test. Take away the code test, and the FCC limited
such licenses to VHF and above.

No, the rules are what counts, not some preamble.

Michael VE2BVW

On 25 Jul 2003 22:56:38 GMT, (Michael Black) wrote:

No, the rules are what counts, not some preamble.

The FCC rules are based on that international requirement.
Now the FCC could have said you must pass the 5 wpm test to operate on HF
frequencies. But they said based on the international proficiency requirements
a tech can operate on HF.

Today there are no international proficiency requirements for morse code.



--
The Radio Page Ham, Police Scanner, Shortwave and more.
http://www.kilowatt-radio.org/

Why don't petition the FCC to ask them if techs can now
use the novice portion of 10 meters. When the official
R&O comes out stating that I can, I will be on as soon
as it's legal, not one minute sooner, unless I learn CW.

I'm going out to enjoy a Friday night. Hamfest on Sunday.
Troll your heart out, Keith from Newsguy, that removed
his email from his killerwatt-radio web site, put all kinds
of strange sh!t in his meta-tags, and just basically puts
the same BS on his web page as you see here. Save yourself
a trip, folks, don't click his link. His attitude matches
that of Stew's!!!

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:57:38 -0400, Scott Unit 69
wrote:

Why don't petition the FCC to ask them if techs can now
use the novice portion of 10 meters.

I don't need to petition the FCC. I need a legal opinion from it. Of course,
time will tell where this goes.
Discussing and protesting rules is not ignoring them.
--
The Radio Page Ham, Police Scanner, Shortwave and more.
http://www.kilowatt-radio.org/

Keith,
And until it is formally accepted, it's still only
a recommendation, not law. Even with a treaty, a foreign
country still doesn't make law in this country. That's
a fact...
'Doc

Keith,
Nope. No matter how much you want it to be as you
say, it isn't. What ain't, ain't...
'Doc

Keith,
You're right, it will be reviewed soon. But until that
happens, nothing has changed. Giving bad advice isn't going
to change the fact...
'Doc

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Keith wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:56:50 GMT, "Dee D. Flint" wrote:
While not a violation of the international treaty, it would be a violation
of the current FCC rules. They are quite clear that Techs (at this time)
must have passed a code test to use HF.

NO! This is what the rules say:

s97.301(e) reads:
For a station having a control operator who has been
granted an operator license of Novice Class or Technician
Class and who has received credit for proficiency in
telegraphy in accordance with the international requirements.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
(followed by frequency table)

Now we have the new regs from WRC that are NOW in effect. They require no morse
code test except set down by the administration so a tech licensee should be in
compliance with the requirement set down in 97.301(e) There is no requirement
for morse code test except for the requirement by the international morse code
requirements.

Actually, this could be read in another way:

Since there is no international requirement that one can be in accordance with,
then the regulation is no longer operative at all and that means that novice
licensees and technician licensees with code credit have NO privileges below 30
MHz at all! :-(

International agreement has killed the "coded technician" license and has made
it indistinguishable (in operating privilege) from the "no-code technician"
license. ;-)


The 'international requirements' (ITU-R s25.5) now read:

Administrations shall determine whether or not a person seeking a licence
to operate an amateur station shall demonstrate the ability to send and
receive texts in Morse code signals.

The ARRL tried to pull a fast one, but the way the FCC rules are written it
appears that it doesn't hold water with current regulations as set down by the
FCC.

Don't worry I'm going to get real legal advice on this.

1. FCC requires compliance with international morse code regulation.

What regulation? ;-)

2. The international morse code regulation is changed to something completely
different and no longer has any morse code proficiency requirement except what
the administration of that country requires.

Then is it still an "international morse code regulation?"

3. The FCC, the administration of the USA, only requires the tech licensee to
comply with the morse code proficiency requirements required by international
requirements.

Of which there is no such thing, so there is no longer a "technician" license
that has any privilege below 30MHz.

4. The international requirements have no requirement to know morse code.

This could be a legal loop hole.

But not the one you think! 2x :-)

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:45:56 -0700, Keith
wrote:

That is what I'm talking about. There is no longer a international requirement
for morse code so tech's can pick up the microphone and talk on 10 meters.

Sure they can. So can someone with no license at all. And as FCC will
view the matter, the only difference is that a Tech is a licensed ham
who is supposed to know better, and thus will have no excuse.

Here in America the FCC has to issue a warning notice, then a violation notice
and the person cited can then simply demand a hearing before a administrative
law judge. The ALJ is a pretty informal process and you just need to cite the
rules and they are not very strict when it comes to matters like these.

Think so? Tell you what I think, I think you forgot to check your
facts again before opening your mouth to change which foot was in
there. The following is quoted from http://www.fcc.gov/oalj/ :

"The Office of Administrative Law Judges (OALJ) of the Federal
Communications Commission is responsible for conducting the hearings
ordered by the Commission. The hearing function includes acting on
interlocutory requests filed in the proceedings such as petitions to
intervene, petitions to enlarge issues, and contested discovery
requests. An Administrative Law Judge, appointed under the APA,
presides at the hearing during which documents and sworn testimony are
received in evidence, and witnesses are cross-examined. At the
conclusion of the evidentiary phase of a proceeding, the Presiding
Administrative Law Judge writes and issues an Initial Decision which
may be appealed to the Commission."

You call that an informal process?

Be advised that there are people currently behind bars because they
tangled with the FCC. The way you're going, you're going to be one of
them before the code test goes away. I suggest that you either find
out what you're talking about first, or stick to other newsgroups
where the participants don't know any better.

If you have a tech license and you operate outside your allowed bands like pop
up in the twenty meter band and keep it up they might come after you.

Make that "they will definitely come after you."

But if
you meet the international requirements and stay in the HF TECH bands it is not
a violation of the rules

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, it *is* a violation of the
rules, unless you have Element 1 credit. Have you ever bothered to
read the rules?

and no one can verify if you have passed a horse and
buggy CW test any god damn way.

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, this assertion is also
incorrect. Now go back to 11 meters where you belong, troll.

DE John, KC2HMZ