DB,

Ditto That!

Roger, Thank You for Your Service to Our Country.

A Christmas and New Years
* * * THANK YOU ! * * *
To All Our Men and Women
Serving in & out of Uniform
through-out the World;
including here in the Homeland.

May they All Be Home by Next Christmas - amen, Amen. AMEN !

~ RHF
..
..
= = = Dave Bushong
= = = wrote in message et...
Sorry for top-posting Roger, but I wanted to say "thank you" for your
having been in the US Military.

Salute!!! (to you)

Dave
KZ1O


..

"Stinger" wrote:

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk
anti-war movement that persists (though
times have changed) to this day.


A "knee-jerk" anti-war movement? The Vietnam war lasted 15 years (25 years
if you count the advisors sent in the 50's), about ten years longer than
WWII. The war started while I was a young child playing with toys in my
backyard and I was able to join the military as a young adult before the war
ended. Any response in the latter years of that war (the period with the
most wide-spread peace movement) could hardly be described as "knee-jerk."


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Please gentlemen, it's been along time since I was in the service.
My son was in Desert Storm. He is my Hero!
I served under President Eisenhower.

--
Set wards, light torches, unfurl banners, play a joyous tune.
Yes! Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow --- You know the rest!
The lot of all living things. To bide a bit, and pass!
Leaving only foot steps in the sands of time!

Happy Holidays to all! Celebrate as you will!
May the Gods be kind to you and yours!



"RHF" wrote in message
om...
DB,

Ditto That!

Roger, Thank You for Your Service to Our Country.

A Christmas and New Years
* * * THANK YOU ! * * *
To All Our Men and Women
Serving in & out of Uniform
through-out the World;
including here in the Homeland.

May they All Be Home by Next Christmas - amen, Amen. AMEN !

~ RHF
.
.
= = = Dave Bushong
= = = wrote in message
et...
Sorry for top-posting Roger, but I wanted to say "thank you" for your
having been in the US Military.

Salute!!! (to you)

Dave
KZ1O


.

"Stinger" wrote in message . ..
Kennedy was a fascinating figure --
--basically groomed from birth by a scheming father for the presidency,
--a womanizer,
--the visionary that sent us to the moon and started the Peace Corps,
--and the sort of legend that can only be made by dying young.

However, Kennedy also gave us LBJ,
--who gave us the welfare state that has arguably destroyed the family
structure of black Americans over the last 35 years,
--who ramped up the Vietnam War,
--and didn't try to win it -- betraying the trust of our servicemen,

What do you mean didn't try to win it? You stupid sonofabitch. Where'd
you pick up that useless piece of information? Recite your little
schpeel to the thousands of GI's wounded in Nam and the thousands more
with psychological scars. They'd kick your little faggot white bread
ass back to you higher institute of learning they never got to go to
because they were forced to ship out 2 months after graduating high
school.

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk anti-war movement that persists
(though times have changed) to this day.

What in the **** are you talking about? You weren't even alive during
Nam little fella. If it wasn't for that anti war movement we would
still be pumping lives and money into Vietnam and you'd be dead right
now because as soon as you were 18 they would have shipped your ass
over there and then shipped it back in a body bag 6 months later.


JMO,

Better to keep your mouth shut then to let everyone know how clueless
you are.


-- Stinger

"CQScanman" wrote in message
"Stinger" wrote in message

snip
What do you mean didn't try to win it? You stupid sonofabitch. Where'd
you pick up that useless piece of information? Recite your little
schpeel to the thousands of GI's wounded in Nam and the thousands more
with psychological scars. They'd kick your little faggot white bread
ass back to you higher institute of learning they never got to go to
because they were forced to ship out 2 months after graduating high
school.

The men who were there know what happened!
With civilians directing the operations who were
more intent on body count that control of a territory.
Take if one day, stop, do a body count,
retake the same territory tomorrow.

My brother (a Marine) spent two terms in 'nam!
I bet him the policy was to maintain a status quo,
not victory, He argued that our military could kick
their butts. I agreed and pointed out that the Military
was not given the go ahead to act in a reasonable military manner,
it was all politics! After he returned, he bought me a steak dinner.
(I provided him a house while he finished at the University)

Your language and manners need mending sir!

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk anti-war movement that persists
(though times have changed) to this day.

What in the **** are you talking about? You weren't even alive during
Nam little fella. If it wasn't for that anti war movement we would
still be pumping lives and money into Vietnam and you'd be dead right
now because as soon as you were 18 they would have shipped your ass
over there and then shipped it back in a body bag 6 months later.

Better to keep your mouth shut then to let everyone know how clueless
you are.

You should take our own advice!

I am Not a "Little Fella" and I DO know what I am talking about!
The Anti war movement attacked the Veterans when they returned
and ridiculed them.
Demonstrators and draft dodgers were uniformly COWARDS!

No, demonstrators assured defeat, and the deaths of thousands of
Vietnamese who didn't get out!

Three men in my Brothers outfit died in the fighting.
Many more suffered from the drugs made so plentiful for them to
fight the depression of the conditions they were forced to be in.

One Marine squad on a flanking patrol destroyed an entire
Vietcong infantry company in twenty minute fire fight.
All the Marines involved were wounded, seven of the nine died of their
wounds.
I personally knew one of the survivors He is now a police officer.
That squad killed 135 of the enemy.

Politicians should never be allowed near a battle field unless in Chains!

As one who was there, the administration put so many "Uhh Uhh's" on the
rules of engagement that we had no chance of winning the war. Winning the
battle, and fighting with the bravest guys you ever saw, made no difference
when Macnamara and Johnson boasted that we "couldn't bomb a ****house with
out Whitehouse approval."

Battle is a fluid situation, you have to improvise. When you first have to
check back with the White House before bombing anybody you loose. Why the
hell didn't they bomb the hell out of Hanoi? This is where the Russians were
bringing in all the supplies to support Uncle Ho.

Johnson was scared we may hit a Russian ship, or bring the Chinese into the
mix. I was all for nuking the whole damn bunch.

So, the writer that stated we did not want to win is anything but a "stupid
son of a bitch" , he has an excellent handle on the realities of the
political side of the conflict.


"CQScanman" wrote in message
m...
"Stinger" wrote in message
. ..
Kennedy was a fascinating figure --
--basically groomed from birth by a scheming father for the
presidency,
--a womanizer,
--the visionary that sent us to the moon and started the Peace
Corps,
--and the sort of legend that can only be made by dying young.

However, Kennedy also gave us LBJ,
--who gave us the welfare state that has arguably destroyed the
family
structure of black Americans over the last 35 years,
--who ramped up the Vietnam War,
--and didn't try to win it -- betraying the trust of our servicemen,

What do you mean didn't try to win it? You stupid sonofabitch. Where'd
you pick up that useless piece of information? Recite your little
schpeel to the thousands of GI's wounded in Nam and the thousands more
with psychological scars. They'd kick your little faggot white bread
ass back to you higher institute of learning they never got to go to
because they were forced to ship out 2 months after graduating high
school.

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk anti-war movement that persists
(though times have changed) to this day.

What in the **** are you talking about? You weren't even alive during
Nam little fella. If it wasn't for that anti war movement we would
still be pumping lives and money into Vietnam and you'd be dead right
now because as soon as you were 18 they would have shipped your ass
over there and then shipped it back in a body bag 6 months later.


JMO,

Better to keep your mouth shut then to let everyone know how clueless
you are.


-- Stinger

I'll tell you what I mean, "You stupid sonofabitch."

I mean that thousands of good American soldiers were wasted as cannon
fodder, betrayed by LBJ and his cronies. I was there, jackass.

We stopped bombing Hanoi, etc. while arguing for years on the shape of the
table they would be using at the peace talks. Meanwhile my buddies were
getting killed.

-- Stinger

" wrote in message
m...
"Stinger" wrote in message
. ..
Kennedy was a fascinating figure --
--basically groomed from birth by a scheming father for the
presidency,
--a womanizer,
--the visionary that sent us to the moon and started the Peace
Corps,
--and the sort of legend that can only be made by dying young.

However, Kennedy also gave us LBJ,
--who gave us the welfare state that has arguably destroyed the
family
structure of black Americans over the last 35 years,
--who ramped up the Vietnam War,
--and didn't try to win it -- betraying the trust of our servicemen,

What do you mean didn't try to win it? You stupid sonofabitch. Where'd
you pick up that useless piece of information? Recite your little
schpeel to the thousands of GI's wounded in Nam and the thousands more
with psychological scars. They'd kick your little faggot white bread
ass back to you higher institute of learning they never got to go to
because they were forced to ship out 2 months after graduating high
school.

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk anti-war movement that persists
(though times have changed) to this day.

What in the **** are you talking about? You weren't even alive during
Nam little fella. If it wasn't for that anti war movement we would
still be pumping lives and money into Vietnam and you'd be dead right
now because as soon as you were 18 they would have shipped your ass
over there and then shipped it back in a body bag 6 months later.


JMO,

Better to keep your mouth shut then to let everyone know how clueless
you are.


-- Stinger

No, Dwight, I agree with your assessment of the Vietnam war.

The knee-jerk anti-war movement I'm speaking about is the one currently
hampering our efforts to eradicate terrorism, that is funded to a large part
by nostalgic nam-era activists.

-- Stinger

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Stinger" wrote:

--and giving credence to a knee-jerk
anti-war movement that persists (though
times have changed) to this day.


A "knee-jerk" anti-war movement? The Vietnam war lasted 15 years (25
years
if you count the advisors sent in the 50's), about ten years longer than
WWII. The war started while I was a young child playing with toys in my
backyard and I was able to join the military as a young adult before the
war
ended. Any response in the latter years of that war (the period with the
most wide-spread peace movement) could hardly be described as "knee-jerk."


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) The Anti war movement attacked the
Veterans when they returned and ridiculed
them. (snip)


That's a myth, Roger. Soldiers heading for Vietnam flew out on military
aircraft departing from military bases and returned from Vietnam on military
aircraft landing at military bases. The soldiers returning from Vietnam were
very rarely close enough to civilian demonstrators to even be attacked or
ridiculed. I joined the military in 1970 and traveled, in uniform,
throughout the country to various training facilities that year. I was never
attacked or ridiculed. Instead, the vast majority, in all age groups, were
friendly to me and respectful of the job our military was doing. Americans
had doubts about that war, but it was not directed towards the soldiers.


(snip) Politicians should never be allowed
near a battle field unless in Chains!


And that sentence shows your lack of understanding of the wider
implications of that war. We had just ended a major conflict with the
Chinese in Korea just a few years earlier - a conflict we didn't win. That
same China now had nuclear weapons, an even larger military, and was not
exactly thrilled that we attacking another of it's neighbors. A major
escalation of the Vietnam war, which would have been necessary to win it,
would have certainly caused China to openly join the conflict, with
potentially devastating results for this country. Our government did the
best it could do, within the constraints of the realities of the times.

As for the soldiers, many of the things they were complaining about (the
operation tempo, shortages of food and supplies, and so on) were the result
of faults within the military, not the civilian government. And, since the
civilian government rarely selected the daily targets for patrols or
missions (the civilian government set the wider strategic goals, leaving the
daily activities to the military leaders there), many of the screw-ups in
those daily activities were the result of military leaders also. In the end,
the military just used the civilian government as a convenient scapegoat to
hide their own screw-ups and failures whenever possible.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Roger Gt" wrote:

(snip) The Anti war movement attacked the
Veterans when they returned and ridiculed
them. (snip)


That's a myth, Roger. Soldiers heading for Vietnam flew out on military
aircraft departing from military bases and returned from Vietnam on
military
aircraft landing at military bases. The soldiers returning from Vietnam
were
very rarely close enough to civilian demonstrators to even be attacked or
ridiculed. I joined the military in 1970 and traveled, in uniform,
throughout the country to various training facilities that year. I was
never
attacked or ridiculed. Instead, the vast majority, in all age groups, were
friendly to me and respectful of the job our military was doing. Americans
had doubts about that war, but it was not directed towards the soldiers.

I don't doubt that the majority were polite and respectful. It is in the
nature of most patriotic Americans to respect the Military service, with
many being drafted and understanding the nature of the task!
And I am glad you had it easy, there was no excuse for the unruly behavior.

BUT 'This' MYTH I saw myself, watched repeated and got involved in breaking
up a few or the attacks!
They did not occur at return points for the military, but at schools when
the Vets would enroll and attend, and sometimes in other groups when some
one identified a member of the military in the immediate area. Sometimes it
was verbal, but I saw at least twenty fist fights. The worst one was when a
gang of about fifty demonstrators tried to prevent an ex Marine from going
to class because the demonstration was "shutting down" the school.. It was
only heated discussion, until some jackass decided that since the Jar-Head
wouldn't do what they told him they would restrain him. He was gentle, no
fatalities, fifteen taken for medical attention. NEVER JUMP a mud Marine!
The crowd scattered when he started breaking bones. Arms and Collar bones
break pretty easily and put unruly people down. Since I was older and
dressed in a suit I was identified as staff, funny, since I was only a
sophomore, but I came over to the school from work, I had to wear a suit in
my job! Because of this I helped cool off some other confrontations that
might have escalated into violence. Couldn't get the police or school
security to do anything, they got scarce at the sight of a crowd!

My brother told me that while he was flying home (civilian air lines) he
encountered people who spit on him. He avoided them. He returned to Vietnam
for another tour before he got out.

(snip) Politicians should never be allowed
near a battle field unless in Chains!

And that sentence shows your lack of understanding of the wider
implications of that war. We had just ended a major conflict with the
Chinese in Korea just a few years earlier - a conflict we didn't win. That
same China now had nuclear weapons, an even larger military, and was not
exactly thrilled that we attacking another of it's neighbors. A major
escalation of the Vietnam war, which would have been necessary to win it,
would have certainly caused China to openly join the conflict, with
potentially devastating results for this country. Our government did the
best it could do, within the constraints of the realities of the times.

Never jump to conclusions without all the facts. There may be nothing there
to land on.
The theory that China would have joined the war was never a factor, except
in the eyes of the peaceniks since the Chinese WERE FINANCING the war!!!
They also supplied most of the Munitions used! They had whole divisions in
Korea! There were Chinese Military Advisors we captured and released in the
Field. The Marines were ordered NOT to take Chinese prisoners.

BUT civilian politicos are not Generals, lacking the training and skills
required in warfare, and often have wrong headed motivations. I am very
well educated on the political scene of the time, and My job was to design
weapons systems for use in the battle, or I would have been in the military
then. I had been out ten years when the heavy fighting began. (reserves)

As for the soldiers, many of the things they were complaining about (the
operation tempo, shortages of food and supplies, and so on) were the
result
of faults within the military, not the civilian government. And, since the
civilian government rarely selected the daily targets for patrols or
missions (the civilian government set the wider strategic goals, leaving
the
daily activities to the military leaders there), many of the screw-ups in
those daily activities were the result of military leaders also. In the
end,
the military just used the civilian government as a convenient scapegoat
to
hide their own screw-ups and failures whenever possible.

There was a change of our tactics due to the change in the warfare tactics
used in Vietnam, no question! And in all wars there are screw-ups. Some of
which cause casualties. BUT interference by non military government
personal was a major factor in the length of the conflict and the level of
losses we sustained.

All Soldiers complain, even when there is nothing real to complain about.
It's the nature of the Job and the pressure on the individual.

Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/