Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws. The
reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated). Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet as
you browse. I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups (attempted
incoming spyware).

Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming out
almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim

"Chris" wrote in message
...
Every time another IE hole is discovered, the **** heads say things
like "It isn't the browser; it's the user," and then they go right on
using IE. Now the Computer Emergency Response Team (CERT) has joined
the chorus of people which includes places like TechTV and has said
that IE is just plain insecure. See

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun25.html,

and be sure to read all of the way to the bottom of the article.

It's not that I care about the **** heads themselves, it's that they
allow themselves to be compromised, and then the rest of us have to
pay for it in some way.

Are you getting too much spam? Blame the infected **** heads whose
computers are acting as spam relays.

Is your ISP putting restrictions on email that really hurt? Blame the
infected **** heads again for overloading your ISP's servers or
networks.

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.711 / Virus Database: 467 - Release Date: 6/25/04

"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...
Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws.
The
reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated). Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet
as
you browse. I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups
(attempted
incoming spyware).

Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking
daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming
out
almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.




Three cheers for Mr. Hampton. Spear a few elitists. I know for a fact
that *nix systems are every bit as vulnerable as Windoze systems, since my
spouse does computer repairs for the US military, and almost everything they
use is a *nix based system. They have problems with hackers on a regular
basis, even through their substantial firewalls.

Point being, the only way you can begin to be sure you are protected is to
have a good firewall and A/V, and keep them running and up to date. The only
times I have EVER had problems with unauthorized ingress to my system have
been when both my firewall and A/V have been down (after a hardware failure
usually)...

Brenda Ann Dyer wrote:
"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...

Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws.

The

reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated). Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet

as

you browse. I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups

(attempted

incoming spyware).

Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking

daily

(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming

out

almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.





Three cheers for Mr. Hampton. Spear a few elitists. I know for a fact
that *nix systems are every bit as vulnerable as Windoze systems, since my
spouse does computer repairs for the US military, and almost everything they
use is a *nix based system. They have problems with hackers on a regular
basis, even through their substantial firewalls.

Point being, the only way you can begin to be sure you are protected is to
have a good firewall and A/V, and keep them running and up to date. The only
times I have EVER had problems with unauthorized ingress to my system have
been when both my firewall and A/V have been down (after a hardware failure
usually)...


Point is, you are willing to accept software that has the problems in
the first place. Demand competently written software.

- mike -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ...

Point is, you are willing to accept software that has the problems in
the first place. Demand competently written software.

- mike -


Mike,

My only point is that other software *also* has holes. The only reason
Internet Explorer has been singled out is that it is so popular and
widespread. Heck, there may be some folks with the old TRS-80 model 1 with
a modem and bulletin board software. I'd bet there are no viruses written
for it. I wonder why ... LOL.

I.E. is a big and tempting target, but not any more or less buggy than other
browsers (or, as I mentioned, Windoze vs other systems). Other operating
systems may be more stable (such as Linux), but have security problems as
well.

Best regards from Rochester, NY
Jim



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.713 / Virus Database: 469 - Release Date: 6/30/04

Jim Hampton wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ...

Point is, you are willing to accept software that has the problems in
the first place. Demand competently written software.

- mike -



Mike,

My only point is that other software *also* has holes. The only reason
Internet Explorer has been singled out is that it is so popular and
widespread. Heck, there may be some folks with the old TRS-80 model 1 with
a modem and bulletin board software. I'd bet there are no viruses written
for it. I wonder why ... LOL.

I.E. is a big and tempting target, but not any more or less buggy than other
browsers (or, as I mentioned, Windoze vs other systems). Other operating
systems may be more stable (such as Linux), but have security problems as
well.

Hey Jim. I think IE is not only a big target, it is an easy one too.
It's integration with the OS looks good on the surface but is a fatal flaw.

I don't think I can convince too many people of that tho', as the
arguments are getting redundant at this point. If you wish, use IE and
Outlook, just be sure to never ever miss an update, and hope the update
works for you. I'll do a different path.

So I'll just have to say "Practice safe computing, in whatever form you
may wish, and all be careful, eh"?


- Mike KB3EIA -

Jim Hampton wrote:
Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws. The
reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

The so called integration that IE and Outlook have with the operating
system makes for more security flaws than other systems. All the bad
guys have to have is access to the machine - Internet Explorer - then
access to the OS - that integration, through either a door put in there
purposely or inadvertently, and there you have it. It isn't a good
system security wise. And we should demand more. The typical PC user
apparently doesn't have very high expectations.


Other systems have the occasional flaw, just not so darn many of them.


BUT!


The real disservice that computer geeks have foisted on the world is
the idea of "one platform, one OS".

The PC world is going to treat us to the computer equivalent of the
Irish Potato Famine one of these days. We are inbred, we are
monoculture. We all have the same vulnerabilities.

What we need is machines that are enough different that what takes one
out does not take all the others out. We also need operators that are
not so far into the woods that they can't see the trees.



*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated).

I need that on my PC's. My Mac doesn't.


Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet as
you browse.

I need that on my PC's for sure.


I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups (attempted
incoming spyware).

Oh yes. It is amazing the source of some of the spyware.


Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming out
almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

Here is another problem though. These updates not only protect your
computer by patching security holes, they sometimes protect your
computer by causing it to cease operating. (a computer that doesn't work
catches no virii) On my PC, I will usually wait a few days in order to
hear what problems the "updates" are causing.


If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus here and there despite
my running a proxy server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's all
the time.

I use both PC's and Macs extensively, so I feel I can comment
knowledgeably. Using a PC is getting to be operations under siege. What
the PC users consider to be normal operations is not what normal
operations should be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the work I
need to do without all the fuss and muss. (p.s. - you should see all the
cool ham radio software that is out for OSX!)

And my final note is that you have done just what the original poster
noted in his post. (albeit his more crudely) That is to blame it on the
user. That doesn't flush. Don't blame the victim. We can't expect all
users to be IT professionals or even highly competent.

If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking
daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser...

..... and herein lies another problem: Microsoft
won't keep any of the old updates available. I had to reload
Windows 98 (you can KEEP XP) and now I find
that almost none of the older "security upgrades" are available.
Or at least, I can't find them. Not only that, but this stupid OS
is probably telling the database I still have the upgrades
when I don't. This seriously sucks. Or I may just not know
how to go about it. That's certainly possible.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:


If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.


Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????

Get it?

Fred Garvin wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:



If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.



Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????


I got taken out of context there, Fred. I was responding to the blame
the victim comments. I do use Microsoft's OS's from XP to Win95 (Yet!)
Mostly because it's part of my job. But I don't use the triumvirate. I
only use the OS. If you are using IE and Outlook in addition to the OS,
then you're asking for trouble.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:10:15 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:

Fred Garvin wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:



If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.



Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????


I got taken out of context there, Fred. I was responding to the blame
the victim comments. I do use Microsoft's OS's from XP to Win95 (Yet!)
Mostly because it's part of my job. But I don't use the triumvirate. I
only use the OS. If you are using IE and Outlook in addition to the OS,
then you're asking for trouble.


I apologize then. Sorry about that.