N9OGL wrote:
From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing
Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL

Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment


"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

Specifically:

(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or
indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;


Never? Who said "never"?


What is compensation? How about the public service event support where
the volunteers are expected to wear a hat or t-shirt? And the sponsors
give all the volunteers that piece of clothing. Must the Hams refuse?
What if the sponsors says "sorry, if you don't abide by our rules, we'll
have to do this some other way"?

Is accepting that glass of water compensation?

Better yet, during field day, I drank a lot of soda provided by some
club members. Is that compensation?

"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis
added) [97.1(a)]


Of course.

If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham
for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work.
You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial
basis, period

No money should ever change hands.


You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating.
The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or
material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised"
[97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so
on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)."

What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get
thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups
newsletters. Is this in violation?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It rather funny that K1MAN get's fined $21,000 for Pecuniary Interest
and the ARRL is allowed to do this. What go for one person should apply
to all. The ARRL should be fined by the FCC for doing this!

There is a significant difference between compensation (which the FCC
allows in some circumstances, and having expenses covered. For me to
move a station down to one of these states in trouble for a week or two
is going to put considerable expense on me. A kilobuck for a plane
ticket each way), a weeks worth of food, (probably around 150 if I'm
careful) and hotel expenses (say $700). Plus a weeks worth of vacation
means I'm giving up around 3-4 kilobucks depending on how you add it up.

Vacation isn't a compensable item IMO, but we simply aren't going to
get many people to help on-site during these disasters if there isn't
some form of compensation.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
N9OGL wrote:
From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing
Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL

Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment


"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

Specifically:

(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or
indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;


Never? Who said "never"?

the ARRL said so



What is compensation? How about the public service event support where
the volunteers are expected to wear a hat or t-shirt? And the sponsors
give all the volunteers that piece of clothing. Must the Hams refuse?

wearing thier unidform is more questionable but I would agree that it
certainly can be seen that way

What if the sponsors says "sorry, if you don't abide by our rules, we'll
have to do this some other way"?

Is accepting that glass of water compensation?

techinicaly yes


Better yet, during field day, I drank a lot of soda provided by some
club members. Is that compensation?

FD is a ham activity


"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis
added) [97.1(a)]


Of course.

If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham
for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work.
You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial
basis, period

No money should ever change hands.


You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating.
The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or
material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised"
[97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so
on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)."

What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get

techinaly yes

thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups
newsletters. Is this in violation?

not if we don't ask for them


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It rather funny that K1MAN get's fined $21,000 for Pecuniary Interest
and the ARRL is allowed to do this. What go for one person should apply
to all. The ARRL should be fined by the FCC for doing this!

There is a significant difference between compensation (which the FCC
allows in some circumstances, and having expenses covered. For me to
move a station down to one of these states in trouble for a week or two
is going to put considerable expense on me. A kilobuck for a plane
ticket each way), a weeks worth of food, (probably around 150 if I'm
careful) and hotel expenses (say $700). Plus a weeks worth of vacation
means I'm giving up around 3-4 kilobucks depending on how you add it up.

and the rules as written don't seem to allow it the ARRL has been
pushing the view that it is forbidden. That these rules are IMO wrong
alters not the facts of what the rules are

Vacation isn't a compensable item IMO, but we simply aren't going to
get many people to help on-site during these disasters if there isn't
some form of compensation.

- Mike KB3EIA -

an_old_friend wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

N9OGL wrote:

From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing
Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL

Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment


"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

Specifically:

(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or
indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;


Never? Who said "never"?


the ARRL said so

Then they are incorrect. Reading part 97, which shows specific
instances when compensation is allowable is right there in the rules.



What is compensation? How about the public service event support where
the volunteers are expected to wear a hat or t-shirt? And the sponsors
give all the volunteers that piece of clothing. Must the Hams refuse?


wearing thier unidform is more questionable but I would agree that it
certainly can be seen that way


What if the sponsors says "sorry, if you don't abide by our rules, we'll
have to do this some other way"?

Is accepting that glass of water compensation?


techinicaly yes


Better yet, during field day, I drank a lot of soda provided by some
club members. Is that compensation?


FD is a ham activity

But I was a Ham who got about 20 sodas free of charge that I wouldn't
have otherwise. Hey this years FD was around 10o degrees! 8^)


"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis
added) [97.1(a)]


Of course.


If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham
for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work.
You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial
basis, period

No money should ever change hands.



You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating.
The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or
material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised"
[97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so
on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)."

What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get


techinaly yes


thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups
newsletters. Is this in violation?


not if we don't ask for them


What you are trying to do is hyper-interpret the rules. They aren't
made for what you are trying to do. They are made to keep people from
being paid for their volunteer work. This means money or goods changing
hands. It means advertising your business through your radio activities.
It doesn't mean me using my own vehicle and gas to get around the parade
in 100 degree heat, and getting a bottle of water from them.

But I can see it now.......

Dave works out of band French Amateurs, and I accepted a bottle of
water at a public service event. 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

N9OGL wrote:

From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing
Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL

Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment


"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

Specifically:

(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or
indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;


Never? Who said "never"?


the ARRL said so

Then they are incorrect. Reading part 97, which shows specific
instances when compensation is allowable is right there in the rules.

well if they are incorrect there and they may be then they being very
strange in endorsing it now


cut

"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis
added) [97.1(a)]


Of course.


If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham
for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work.
You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial
basis, period

No money should ever change hands.



You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating.
The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or
material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised"
[97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so
on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)."

What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get


techinaly yes


thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups
newsletters. Is this in violation?


not if we don't ask for them


What you are trying to do is hyper-interpret the rules. They aren't
made for what you are trying to do. They are made to keep people from
being paid for their volunteer work. This means money or goods changing
hands. It means advertising your business through your radio activities.
It doesn't mean me using my own vehicle and gas to get around the parade
in 100 degree heat, and getting a bottle of water from them.

I agree the rules are made for this occasion like many other rules in
DHS, FEMA, etc many rules are showing just how out of touch the planing
of the goverment is with needs of the people

I find it suspious that the ARRL is taking part in this when they have
published and pusshed the opinion that this ilegal for years

I can remeber the Former Central Divison Director (can't remeber his
name but he was from Springfield IL lecutureing some of us on the
repeater when we were discussing this subject, and then showing up at
the Ham club meeting to make sure we understood that that even that
soda is techicaly illegal

Major flip flop

But I can see it now.......

Dave works out of band French Amateurs, and I accepted a bottle of
water at a public service event. 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

N9OGL wrote:

From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing
Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL

Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment


"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

Specifically:

(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or
indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;


Never? Who said "never"?


the ARRL said so

Then they are incorrect. Reading part 97, which shows specific
instances when compensation is allowable is right there in the rules.



What is compensation? How about the public service event support where
the volunteers are expected to wear a hat or t-shirt? And the sponsors
give all the volunteers that piece of clothing. Must the Hams refuse?


wearing thier unidform is more questionable but I would agree that it
certainly can be seen that way


What if the sponsors says "sorry, if you don't abide by our rules, we'll
have to do this some other way"?

Is accepting that glass of water compensation?


techinicaly yes


Better yet, during field day, I drank a lot of soda provided by some
club members. Is that compensation?


FD is a ham activity

But I was a Ham who got about 20 sodas free of charge that I wouldn't
have otherwise. Hey this years FD was around 10o degrees! 8^)


"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis
added) [97.1(a)]


Of course.


If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham
for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work.
You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial
basis, period

No money should ever change hands.



You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating.
The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or
material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised"
[97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so
on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)."

What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get


techinaly yes


thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups
newsletters. Is this in violation?


not if we don't ask for them


What you are trying to do is hyper-interpret the rules. They aren't
made for what you are trying to do. They are made to keep people from
being paid for their volunteer work. This means money or goods changing
hands. It means advertising your business through your radio activities.
It doesn't mean me using my own vehicle and gas to get around the parade
in 100 degree heat, and getting a bottle of water from them.

I agree the rules are not set up for this just like FEMA and DHS and
other set of rules are not set up for this mess (katrina)

I don't agree with the rules as written but they are the rules

But I can see it now.......

Dave works out of band French Amateurs, and I accepted a bottle of
water at a public service event. 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

- Mike KB3EIA -

.... so, the general message here is, "Do as the FCC says--unless you are
arrl--then you can do as you see fit. However, no one else (not even
K1MAN) can do as the arrl does..."

I'll admit it is a bit confusing... unless you are the arrl--then you know
exactly what is going on--you are giving everyone a royal screwing and
either they are too stupid to care--or too stupid to have ethics!

John

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 14:40:50 -0700, N9OGL wrote:

From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing
Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL

Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment


"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis
added) [97.1(a)]

If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham
for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work.
You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial
basis, period
You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating.
The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or
material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised"
[97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so
on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It rather funny that K1MAN get's fined $21,000 for Pecuniary Interest
and the ARRL is allowed to do this. What go for one person should apply
to all. The ARRL should be fined by the FCC for doing this!


Todd N9OGL

Let us hope the newbies are smart enough to see the graft and corruption
which has entered arrl (and been there growing for decades) and just say
"HELL NO!"

John

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 11:37:48 -0700, N9OGL wrote:

NEWINGTON, CT, Sep 2, 2005--The Corporation for National and Community
Service (CNCS) will provide a $100,000 grant supplement to ARRL to
support Amateur Radio's emergency communication operators in states
affected by Hurricane Katrina. The grant will help to fund "Ham Aid," a
new League program to support Amateur Radio volunteers deployed in the
field in disaster-stricken areas. ARRL Chief Development Officer Mary
Hobart, K1MMH, expressed gratitude to CNCS for its generous response.
Ham Aid, she said, offers a unique opportunity to support individual
radio amateurs helping to bridge the communication gap Hurricane
Katrina has caused.

"For the first time in ARRL history, we will be able to reimburse some
of the expenses that hams incur in response to a disaster," she said.
"We only wish that we could justify an expense reimbursement program
like this every time Amateur Radio Emergency Service volunteers are
called upon to help in a disaster or emergency, sometimes placing
themselves in harm's way."

In addition to providing emergency communication within and outside the
affected areas, Amateur Radio Emergency Service (ARES) members and
individual radio amateurs are supplementing the communication needs of
emergency management and relief agencies, including the American Red
Cross and The Salvation Army. Hobart said it's only due to the scope of
the unprecedented and tragic Katrina disaster that CNCS agreed to help
support dedicated Amateur Radio volunteers.

"But," she added, "we'd like to think of this grant as a token of
appreciation and a recognition of Amateur Radio's value in past
emergencies and disasters, such as 9/11."

Hobart says ARRL's Ham Aid program already has received some
substantial private donations. Those and the CNCS grant, she said,
provide a way for the League to "support our Field Organization as
never before."

The CNCS Ham Aid grant is effective for operations established and
documented as of September 1, 2005, and the aid is earmarked for
Hurricane Katrina deployments only at this point. Guidelines are being
established that will permit volunteers who have been involved in bona
fide field support operations on or after September 1 to provide
communication support to apply for a reimbursement voucher on a per
diem basis.

Trained Amateur Radio operators will be on site for the duration of
this disaster response, which could run into several weeks or months.
"Many will leave their jobs and families and travel on their own
expense, using their own equipment," Hobart points out.

Corporation funds may also sustain the Ham Aid program and help to
rebuild the emergency communications capabilities in Louisiana,
Mississippi and Alabama to ensure that the Gulf Coast is prepared,
should disaster strike again.

The CNCS grant is an extension of ARRL's three year Homeland Security
training grant, which has provided certification in emergency
communication protocols to nearly 5500 Amateur Radio volunteer over the
past three years.

"CNCS grants helped make it possible for the ARRL to train America's
hams and make them the best all-volunteer emergency radio service ever
seen," Hobart said. "Now they are making it possible for the hams to
use that training."

"N9OGL" wrote in message
oups.com...
NEWINGTON, CT, Sep 2, 2005--The Corporation for National and Community
Service (CNCS) will provide a $100,000 grant supplement to ARRL to
support Amateur Radio's emergency communication operators in states
affected by Hurricane Katrina.

Isn't that nice....

"For the first time in ARRL history, we will be able to reimburse some
of the expenses that hams incur in response to a disaster," she said.

Obviously this woman don't know just how cheap hams
can be. They better have a great accounting system on hand
and/or have the radios nailed down and/or etched with
property and S/N tags else their gonna be up for sale on
e-Bay in a few months!

"We only wish that we could justify an expense reimbursement program
like this every time Amateur Radio Emergency Service volunteers are
called upon to help in a disaster or emergency, sometimes placing
themselves in harm's way."

Just put a big truck well stocked with *free* coffee and doughnuts
and it will attract them like iron filings to an alinco magnet.

(Been listening to 75M between all the traffic nets at night. Sounds like
the musings in an all-white redneck bar from one end of the band to the
other. How amusing and expected)

Food, caps, tee-shirts, food, and bottle water is one thing, but money
is another. My point in all of this is K1MAN was fined by the FCC for
Pecuniary Interest and now the ASSHOLE RADIO RELAY LEAGUE is going to
do the samething. What go for one person should apply for all. The MAIN
problem I see here is the definition of the term noncommercial, and
seems that there is two tems on what noncommercial means.

Todd N9OGL

"N9OGL" wrote

now the ASSHOLE RADIO RELAY LEAGUE

Todd,

Up until this point, the conversation on this topic was reasoned and balanced.
But you've chosen to resort to your habitual trash mouth mode, so you can find
any further comments from me posted at http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy .

With warmest kind wishes,
de Hans, K0HB