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#1
January 26th 07, 01:01 PM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
On Jan 25, 9:23 pm, wrote:
I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator. She believes that the kids would be fascinated by the Morse code - Dxing - Construction end of the hobby, even though Morse is no longer a required test element. The kids are mostly Navajo and thusly have a very limited technological background (hence the reason for the club to stir the interest), so I need something concrete with immediate payoff to keep their interest hooked while getting them as ready as I can to write their Technician exam. The nearest VEC is 4 hours away and I'd rather have as few fail as possible. I had thought to start an unlicensed micro-power code practice net whose range would be limited to about a 30 mile radius, which is about the size of the local reservation right next to the school. What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with myself as occasional net control. Ignoring your legal question, a suggestion: Radio isn't too impressive among kids these days. Especially in lesser-developed parts of the world (I honestly don't know how much that overlaps with these kids?) everybody has a cellphone anyways. So if Morse code is to be an attractor (and it is, being an arcane art with secret-code aspects, going to be somewhat attractive to at least some kids), start with wired operation. Yeah, it's really super-basic: battery, key, beeper, wires, maybe a blinking light bulb. But if you skip the basics (and it sounds like these kids may have already missed the basics) then they'll get nothing out of it anyway. I've worked with similar school-age kids in a vastly more developed/educated part of the U.S. and they generally don't know how to wire a light bulb to a battery even though they all know how to use a USB keychain to exchange MP3's via myspace accounts. If you're lucky, you'll find a one or two techie kids who take after the detailed radio interests not too different than your own. Otherwise, aim low, very very low in terms of complexity, in an effort to bring up the low end rather than cater to the one or two kids who would really benefit from your more advanced plans. Tim. |
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#2
January 26th 07, 03:39 PM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Tim Shoppa wrote:
... Ignoring your legal question, a suggestion: Radio isn't too impressive among kids these days. Especially in lesser-developed parts of the world (I honestly don't know how much that overlaps with these kids?) everybody has a cellphone anyways. Tim: I really find there is a LOT of interest in radio these days. Example: The wife and I got a pair of maxon 49.??? Mhz communicators, vox, etc. At first, we got them for the motorcycle we had, the head gear can be jammed under a helmet and the transceiver clipped on a belt, great for talking while going down the road. Lately, with the super walmart and all, we have been using them while shopping, it is always easy to locate her in the store and we can shop together even though we shop apart. Or, I can wait outside and just meet here when she is checking out. Point is, I can't get through the store without someone striking up a conversation over these things. If I mention other areas of radio I am involved in, it can easily turn into an hour conversation ... Point being, an interest in radio is actually easy to begin in others. Biggest problem I have noted is that people just don't talk anymore, with these "conversation starters" on, they do! Regards, JS |
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#4
January 26th 07, 06:37 PM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Paul W. Schleck wrote:
... I certainly hope Paul is an attorney, as if he speaks about the reservation, I hope he speaks with knowledge. Here is a paper which will demonstrate there is "quite a bit of controversy" over legality of 97 and 15 on reservations: http://www.fcc.gov/sptf/files/0801fcc.pdf Course, with some, an amateur license immediately makes them an authority in all areas ... Warmest regards, JS |
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#5
January 27th 07, 05:38 AM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 In John Smith I writes: Paul W. Schleck wrote: ... I certainly hope Paul is an attorney, as if he speaks about the reservation, I hope he speaks with knowledge. I am not a lawyer. When faced with legal questions about my own operation, or when trying to help keep apparently honest and sincere people like "Eternal Squire" stay out of trouble, I defer to the true experts. Existing, compiled, and expert advice like that provided at the ARRL TIS site I previously mentioned would seem to be a good place to start. I also value the insight provided here by Usenet participants who are attorneys with experience in communications law. I would certainly defer to their input on this matter, if offered (*). I also ask myself if I am obeying the spirit as well as the letter of any law or regulation. I don't feel it's within the scope of good amateur practice, personal ethical conduct, or even just overall "good neighbor" guidelines to be focusing on alleged loopholes such as being on a Native American Reservation, in international waters, or an "educational project." Often such excuses are transparent, self-serving, and not borne out in actual legal practice, regulations, treaties, enforcement, etc. Unless I had a lot of legal resources at my disposal (pro bono counsel, etc.), I would probably not seek to try and make myself a legal test case, as some on the newsgroups seem bent on doing. I would hope that "Eternal Squire", whose post implies that he is a licensed radio amateur, is thinking along these same lines, also. I offered my layperson's advice in that context. Here is a paper which will demonstrate there is "quite a bit of controversy" over legality of 97 and 15 on reservations: http://www.fcc.gov/sptf/files/0801fcc.pdf I read the above transcript you provided. I note with interest that my friend, fellow ham, and Usenet peer Carl Stevenson (WK3C) was a member of this workshop. I'd certainly defer to his technical expertise. However, the gist I got from the transcript, and from asking legal experts, is that case law is mixed on the subject of whether what happens on a reservation is strictly an internal, tribal matter. That no one present at the workshop wanted to venture an authoritative answer doesn't meant that there aren't those involved in enforcement who could give one. Radio transmitters and casinos are given as principal examples where case law, practice, and jurisdictional agreements go against the assertion that on a reservation, U.S. law does not apply. Course, with some, an amateur license immediately makes them an authority in all areas ... It was a question about amateur radio, asked in an amateur radio newsgroup. I suggested that he seek expert advice, such as that summarized at the ARRL TIS web site I linked previously. No more, and no less. Warmest regards, JS (*) I did ask one of the experts in communications law that I know personally. He offered the following observations: "I would add something to the extent that you have been advised by a communications attorney with over 50 years' experience in FCC regulatory matters that unless there is a specific treaty granting a tribe authority to regulate amateur radio transmissions on a reservation, and there isn't, FCC law and jurisdiction prevail. There are agreements giving tribes authority to determine who may operate a broadcast station from a reservation, but the FCC must regulate the technical parameters (frequency, power, location) to be observed and grant the callsign and make all necessary international notifications. Similarly, in international waters or airspace, the country of registration of the vessel or aircraft retains jurisdiction, and any country may lodge a complaint of violation of the International Radio Regulations with the country of registration if that is the case. If the vessel or aircraft is 'unregistered', any country has the authority to blast it out of the water or the air, although that is a drastic measure. The International Radio Regulations do, however. oblige all countries to not condone or support any radio (or TV) broadcasting from international waters or airspace." As this seems to be drifting into a *.policy area, and not *.homebrew, I've set followups as appropriate. Feel free to override my default if you must. - -- Paul W. Schleck, K3FU http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/ Finger for PGP Public Key -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (SunOS) iD8DBQFFuuMd6Pj0az779o4RAidgAJ4tmvrsIgefuGREQz/Eqw20LljowACfRg1f glmhM6RbiJJcbgT3quj9GmM= =Dai7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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#6
January 27th 07, 06:00 AM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Paul W. Schleck wrote:
... Well, I must admit, anyone affiliated with the ARRL turns me off, as it does many. Although they cannot, possibly, be held directly and solely responsible for bringing amateur radio to the brink of disaster it now hangs at, they certainly have never helped much, well, other than themselves. However, I would strongly suggest anyone to investigate all of the options open to an Indian reservation, the laws which govern them are much different than those governing all other areas of the USA. If I read that paper correctly (mentioned in my earlier post), the FCC would seem to be mostly interested in the rf which left the borders of the reservation. I know ripples of shock went through the population of California when they were allowed to operate gambling casinos. Something most did not expect. I would not be surprised if further surprises along those same line do not await us ... Now, as to the rest, I am simply not impressed nor interested ... Regards, JS |
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#7
January 27th 07, 07:16 PM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
Paul,
Its my opinion, the fact that these childrens' homes are on Navajo Land is legally irrelevant. From what I understand, Native territories are jurisdictions having roughly equal standing to the states, but just like states are still subject to the Constitution and to Acts of Congress, such as the one authorizing the FCC and parts 15 and 97. As for using a pseudonym, I use that rather than my name or call for obvious reasons of personal safety for myself and my family. Cheers, The Eternal Squire On Jan 26, 10:38 pm, Paul W. Schleck wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In John Smith I writes: Paul W. Schleck wrote: ... I certainly hope Paul is an attorney, as if he speaks about the reservation, I hope he speaks with knowledge.I am not a lawyer. When faced with legal questions about my own operation, or when trying to help keep apparently honest and sincere people like "Eternal Squire" stay out of trouble, I defer to the true experts. Existing, compiled, and expert advice like that provided at the ARRL TIS site I previously mentioned would seem to be a good place to start. I also value the insight provided here by Usenet participants who are attorneys with experience in communications law. I would certainly defer to their input on this matter, if offered (*). I also ask myself if I am obeying the spirit as well as the letter of any law or regulation. I don't feel it's within the scope of good amateur practice, personal ethical conduct, or even just overall "good neighbor" guidelines to be focusing on alleged loopholes such as being on a Native American Reservation, in international waters, or an "educational project." Often such excuses are transparent, self-serving, and not borne out in actual legal practice, regulations, treaties, enforcement, etc. Unless I had a lot of legal resources at my disposal (pro bono counsel, etc.), I would probably not seek to try and make myself a legal test case, as some on the newsgroups seem bent on doing. I would hope that "Eternal Squire", whose post implies that he is a licensed radio amateur, is thinking along these same lines, also. I offered my layperson's advice in that context. Here is a paper which will demonstrate there is "quite a bit of controversy" over legality of 97 and 15 on reservations: http://www.fcc.gov/sptf/files/0801fcc.pdfI read the above transcript you provided. I note with interest that my friend, fellow ham, and Usenet peer Carl Stevenson (WK3C) was a member of this workshop. I'd certainly defer to his technical expertise. However, the gist I got from the transcript, and from asking legal experts, is that case law is mixed on the subject of whether what happens on a reservation is strictly an internal, tribal matter. That no one present at the workshop wanted to venture an authoritative answer doesn't meant that there aren't those involved in enforcement who could give one. Radio transmitters and casinos are given as principal examples where case law, practice, and jurisdictional agreements go against the assertion that on a reservation, U.S. law does not apply. Course, with some, an amateur license immediately makes them an authority in all areas ...It was a question about amateur radio, asked in an amateur radio newsgroup. I suggested that he seek expert advice, such as that summarized at the ARRL TIS web site I linked previously. No more, and no less. Warmest regards, JS(*) I did ask one of the experts in communications law that I know personally. He offered the following observations: "I would add something to the extent that you have been advised by a communications attorney with over 50 years' experience in FCC regulatory matters that unless there is a specific treaty granting a tribe authority to regulate amateur radio transmissions on a reservation, and there isn't, FCC law and jurisdiction prevail. There are agreements giving tribes authority to determine who may operate a broadcast station from a reservation, but the FCC must regulate the technical parameters (frequency, power, location) to be observed and grant the callsign and make all necessary international notifications. Similarly, in international waters or airspace, the country of registration of the vessel or aircraft retains jurisdiction, and any country may lodge a complaint of violation of the International Radio Regulations with the country of registration if that is the case. If the vessel or aircraft is 'unregistered', any country has the authority to blast it out of the water or the air, although that is a drastic measure. The International Radio Regulations do, however. oblige all countries to not condone or support any radio (or TV) broadcasting from international waters or airspace." As this seems to be drifting into a *.policy area, and not *.homebrew, I've set followups as appropriate. Feel free to override my default if you must. - -- Paul W. Schleck, K3FU /~pschleck/ Finger for PGP Public Key -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (SunOS) iD8DBQFFuuMd6Pj0az779o4RAidgAJ4tmvrsIgefuGREQz/Eqw20LljowACfRg1f glmhM6RbiJJcbgT3quj9GmM= =Dai7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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#8
January 27th 07, 09:20 PM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 In . com writes: Paul, Its my opinion, the fact that these childrens' homes are on Navajo Land is legally irrelevant. I agree. I was just rebutting the bad advice given here that you should try to focus on legal loopholes or otherwise "stretch" the law in some way. Especially when that advice is based on an incomplete or inexpert knowledge of the law, whose misunderstanding could have expensive consequences. I know that hams in general are an honorable lot, and as a whole would not attempt to think or act that way. I'm glad that we are thinking along the same lines. Which is one of the reasons that I believed that you were sincere, and a licensed amateur radio operator. From what I understand, Native territories are jurisdictions having roughly equal standing to the states, but just like states are still subject to the Constitution and to Acts of Congress, such as the one authorizing the FCC and parts 15 and 97. Treaties with Native American tribes, and resulting laws and inter-jurisdictional agreements bear out that viewpoint, according to the expert that I consulted, and quoted in my previous post. So, the one remaining question would appear to be your original one, which was where does Part 15 leave off and Part 97 begin? I think that the ARRL TIS site that I linked previously is a good place to start. I invite everyone to consider the excellent advice offered at that site, including links to FCC documents, independent of prejudicial dislike of the involved sources or personalities. As for using a pseudonym, I use that rather than my name or call for obvious reasons of personal safety for myself and my family. That's too bad that Usenet has degraded to the point that we actually fear for the safety of ourselves and our families when we participate here, and merely state our intentions to operate lawfully, and not tolerate unlawful behavior. I'm honestly surprised that these are controversial viewpoints in some quarters. Personally, in nearly 17 years of participating on-line, I've never felt the need to use a pseudonym, or feared for my safety. However, I respect the reasonable personal choices of others in this regard. - -- 73, Paul W. Schleck, K3FU http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/ Finger for PGP Public Key -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (SunOS) iD8DBQFFu8Cy6Pj0az779o4RAmvfAJ43WI9vMFjgeqA8+TOb/qWjmltMrQCgg5X1 0qp7+liEHUDgsygkj0fuRx4= =Q/nQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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#9
January 26th 07, 07:35 PM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
wrote in message
ups.com... All, I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the Eastern Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator. She believes that the kids would be fascinated by the Morse code - DXing - Construction end of the hobby, even though Morse is no longer a required test element. The kids are mostly Navajo and thusly have a very limited technological background (hence the reason for the club to stir the interest), so I need something concrete with immediate payoff to keep their interest hooked while getting them as ready as I can to write their Technician exam. The nearest VEC is 4 hours away and I'd rather have as few fail as possible. The Navajo people have a proud heritage for their WW2 participation in usage of their language for communication in the Pacific (Japanese could not break it). See movie - Windtalkers (and a couple of others). CW may be of interest to some - in that it is also a human translated code -- that was a foreign to 19th century US citizens -- as Arabic is to many 21st century Americans today. You should contact the VEC to see what accommodations they could make -- to assist you for testing. Good luck with it. w9gb |
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#10
January 27th 07, 07:50 PM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?
I had thought to start an unlicensed micro-power code practice net whose range would be limited to about a 30 mile radius, which is about the size of the local reservation right next to the school. What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with myself as occasional net control. My question is this: so long as final output to the antenna is within the requirement of part 15 unlicensed operation, is part 15 unlicensed operation allowed within a band normally governed under part 97? Part 15 operation would easily cover a 30 mile radius on 80M. If no, I'll run the net under part 15 on the edge of the AM band near 160M. Thanks in advance, The Eternal Squire I have been thinking about this for a while before making this reply. I would strongly suggest looking at the lowfer band. 160Kc to 190Kc The limitations are relatively straight forward. Maximum length of feed line, and antenna are 15meters. Maximum power input to the final amp stage is 1W. No other real limitations besides the fact that out of band emissions have to be below a specific point. That is about a 50 foot long antenna. There isn't much of a chance that they will try to string one up longer than that, unless they were really industrious. And they can learn about antenna loading, to get a better transmitted signal/range. The one watt input power level is easy to determine. If the input is 10V then adjust the current to a maximum of 100mA. They can use any mode of communication they want. CW, AM, SSB, FM, PSK31, BPSK, MFSK The sky is the limit as for as modes. If they have computers, most of the digital modes can be implemented with soundcard based communications software that is available as freeware Look up "MULTIPSK" They can set up beacons for propagation checks, or talk to each other in real time. 30 miles is an easy distance to reach with basic loaded antennas. Especially with PSK31 and CW. It will allow them to learn how to build receiving antennas. And if they can't reach, or hear someone on the other side of the reservation, then it will allow them to learn the basics of traffic handling by the stations in the middle relaying information from one station to another. It will also teach them the basics of the narrower bandwidth/greater range relationship. With the low bandwidth BPSK, PSK31 modes, they will easily communicate across the reservation even if they can barely hear each other on voice. You can either get kit equipment for receiving or transmitting, which is widely available on line. Or you can design and build your own. If they are lucky, they may even hear stations, and beacons from hundreds of miles away. Or even thousands. There is nothing like the thrill of DX. |
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