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Old January 26th 07, 03:23 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Posts: 28
Default Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?

All,

I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on
how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the
Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science
teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for
the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator.

She believes that the kids would be fascinated by the Morse code -
Dxing - Construction end of the hobby, even though Morse is no longer a
required test element.

The kids are mostly Navajo and thusly have a very limited technological
background (hence the reason for the club to stir the interest), so I
need something concrete with immediate payoff to keep their interest
hooked while getting them as ready as I can to write their Technician
exam. The nearest VEC is 4 hours away and I'd rather have as few fail
as possible.

I had thought to start an unlicensed micro-power code practice net
whose range would be limited to about a 30 mile radius, which is about
the size of the local reservation right next to the school.

What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for
the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a
battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with
myself as occasional net control.

My question is this: so long as final output to the antenna is within
the requirement of part 15 unlicensed operation, is part 15 unlicensed
operation allowed within a band normally governed under part 97?
Part 15 operation would easily cover a 30 mile radius on 80M.

If no, I'll run the net under part 15 on the edge of the AM band near
160M.

Thanks in advance,

The Eternal Squire

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Old January 26th 07, 03:35 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Default Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?

wrote:
All,


I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on
how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the
Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science
teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for
the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator.


She believes that the kids would be fascinated by the Morse code -
Dxing - Construction end of the hobby, even though Morse is no longer a
required test element.


The kids are mostly Navajo and thusly have a very limited technological
background (hence the reason for the club to stir the interest), so I
need something concrete with immediate payoff to keep their interest
hooked while getting them as ready as I can to write their Technician
exam. The nearest VEC is 4 hours away and I'd rather have as few fail
as possible.


I had thought to start an unlicensed micro-power code practice net
whose range would be limited to about a 30 mile radius, which is about
the size of the local reservation right next to the school.


What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for
the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a
battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with
myself as occasional net control.


My question is this: so long as final output to the antenna is within
the requirement of part 15 unlicensed operation, is part 15 unlicensed
operation allowed within a band normally governed under part 97?
Part 15 operation would easily cover a 30 mile radius on 80M.


If no, I'll run the net under part 15 on the edge of the AM band near
160M.


Thanks in advance,


The Eternal Squire


Wouldn't it be easier to just read part 15 rather than starting what
is bound to be a major flame war between the barracks lawyers?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
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Old January 26th 07, 04:01 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jan 2007
Posts: 5
Default Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?

writes:

All,

I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on
how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the
Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science
teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for
the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator.


[much snippage]...

I won't flame you at all -- I admire your elmering, and think it's a
great idea.

I'd be exteremely careful to make sure you meet the field-strength
requirements of Part-15 with whatever project you do -- it can be
remarkably easy to get foul of it and reliable measurements require
skill.

Besides 80m and the top of the AM ex-band you might also consider
the lowfer 1750m stuff ... Lots of kits out there for it, and an
active user community.

Of course getting them all licensed would be the best solutiuon ...

Junior high is probably just at the edge of where passing the novice
or tech written would be a cake-walk. As I used to joke to my
classes, "there's three parts to the written -- three engineering
formulae: E=IR ; c = f lambda ; 40inches in a meter., a handful of
common sense questions, and a few memorizable factoids" (band edges,
etc.)

I had a sixth grader of average intelligence in one class - it was a
little harder for her, but she passed it on her second try.

--
Lawrence Statton -
m s/aba/c/g
Computer software consists of only two components: ones and
zeros, in roughly equal proportions. All that is required is to
place them into the correct order.
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Old January 26th 07, 04:29 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Aug 2006
Posts: 28
Default Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?

I'm a bit more worried about having them memorize the Clapp, Colpitts,
and Pierce
Oscillators. Isn't that stuff still on Tech exam?

The Eternal Squire

On Jan 25, 8:01 pm, Lawrence Statton XE2/N1GAK
wrote:
writes:
All,


I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on
how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the
Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science
teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for
the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator.[much snippage]...


I won't flame you at all -- I admire your elmering, and think it's a
great idea.

I'd be exteremely careful to make sure you meet the field-strength
requirements of Part-15 with whatever project you do -- it can be
remarkably easy to get foul of it and reliable measurements require
skill.

Besides 80m and the top of the AM ex-band you might also consider
the lowfer 1750m stuff ... Lots of kits out there for it, and an
active user community.

Of course getting them all licensed would be the best solutiuon ...

Junior high is probably just at the edge of where passing the novice
or tech written would be a cake-walk. As I used to joke to my
classes, "there's three parts to the written -- three engineering
formulae: E=IR ; c = f lambda ; 40inches in a meter., a handful of
common sense questions, and a few memorizable factoids" (band edges,
etc.)

I had a sixth grader of average intelligence in one class - it was a
little harder for her, but she passed it on her second try.

--
Lawrence Statton - s/aba/c/g
Computer software consists of only two components: ones and
zeros, in roughly equal proportions. All that is required is to
place them into the correct order.


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Old January 26th 07, 05:44 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jan 2007
Posts: 6
Default Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?


wrote in message
ups.com...

My question is this: so long as final output to the antenna is within
the requirement of part 15 unlicensed operation, is part 15 unlicensed
operation allowed within a band normally governed under part 97?
Part 15 operation would easily cover a 30 mile radius on 80M.


http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...7cfr15_06.html

Part 15.223 says in part...

"Subpart C_Intentional Radiators
Sec. 15.223 Operation in the band 1.705-10 MHz.

(a) The field strength of any emission within the band 1.705-10.0
MHz shall not exceed 100 microvolts/meter at a distance of 30 meters.
However, if the bandwidth of the emission is less than 10% of the center
frequency, the field strength shall not exceed 15 microvolts/meter or
(the bandwidth of the device in kHz) divided by (the center frequency of
the device in MHz) microvolts/meter at a distance of 30 meters,
whichever is the higher level."

For CW operation, your bandwidth is zero for all practical purposes. You
will therefore be allowed 15 uV/m at 30 meters.

From this I made a very crude estimate of your allowed transmitter output
power. Assuming your transmitter antenna is 100% efficient and radiates
hemispherically, your transmitter output power is allowed to be no more than
about 1.7 nanowatts (1.7e-9 watts). For ideal circumstances (0 dB receiver
antenna gain, 100% efficient receiver antenna), you would get less than 5 uV
at a receiver 400 meters away. I stress that this is for ideal
circumstances. If your transmitting antenna is less efficient, you can run
more power, but less of your power gets launched. How efficient is that
antenna, anyway? On the other hand, your antenna may have some directivity
which would further limit your power.

This is making my head hurt.

All that can really be said about this estimate is that, to be safe, you
should not have much more than about 2 nanowatts output power unless you
have the ability to measure the field strength according to regulations.

Good luck with your project.

73,
John


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Old January 26th 07, 06:04 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Posts: 322
Default Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?

) writes:

What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for
the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a
battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with
myself as occasional net control.

The last thing in the world you want to do is give them the ability to
send and receive. Because then you'll get a bunch of senders and nobody
who can receive.

I made the same mistake when I was ten and got a morse code set. Two
units connected by wires, and you could switch between a morse sounder,
a light bulb or a buzzer. It was great for sending away, but the problem
was there was nobody to receive. And sending didn't mean a
thing in learning to receive.

I think it's correct to believe that youngsters would be interested
in morse code, a "secret language" at an age when "secret language"
means something.

But I don't see this helping.

You need to send to them, something they don't need licenses for or
a worry about whether the transmitter needs a license or not. But
then, they do need receivers. Only later will they have the ability
to communicate with morse code.

They don't need license-free transmitters to get a feel for ham
radio. They can talk (and if they know morse code, send) as third
parties over your station. You can build up simple receivers for
them, or better yet get them interested in building their own simple
receivers, and then listen to a ham band or your code practice
transmissions.

Building the receivers is a way to get them enthused about the hobby,
if done right. Again, getting the thing to work is a sense of
accomplishment, and it doesn't matter how simple the receiver might
be.

Charles Kitchin has had some simple regen receivers in QST in recent
years, using easy to get parts. I looked at one and everything could
come out of a good junk box. He had one that used a color subcarrier
crystal, again an easy to get part and which made it easy to tune. At
least one of the articles is at the ARRL website for all to access. Do
a websearch on his name, and you'll find that various clubs have done
it as a group project.

But also, when amateur radio is taught in schools, it always looks
good, because so many pass the test. I'm not so sure so many stick
with the hobby. Some of what's appealing about the hobby is that it's
not for everyone. I passed the test when I was 12, and it was something
to boast about at school, if school hadn't ended just before I got
the test results. I'm not convinced it would have had the same appeal
if it had been a regular school thing.

So often amateur radio benefits those school kids as a catalyst for
other things. And thus it's important that in this case getting the
ham license isn't the end goal. Getting them interested in learning,
getting them interested in building, even getting them interested
in communicating should be the goal. If they get something out of
building a simple radio receiver, then that's more important than
passing a test but getting nothing.

So letting them be third parties on your radio, and talking to distant
places, or even other reserves, is beneficial, whether or not it
leads them to getting a license. Getting them interested in building,
be it a radio receiver or some other gadget that can be made with
junk parts, is beneficial in itself. (And maybe a reservation isn't
the home of much electronic trash, but it's generally so easy to
get that they could learn from the act of taking things apart.)
Build up various means of sending morse code, and use that as
demonstration of things, rather than seeing morse code as the goal.
You can send morse by radio, and light, but you can also modulate
a light so you get a tone with morse code out of the speaker at
the receiving end. During WWII there was various activity using
the earth to send and receiver (since ham licenses were in suspension),
and that's another neat thing. You need to show them that there
are neat things, before they can pursue those things.

These things are the lure to get them interested in amateur radio.
They help to make going after the license appealing. But if it's
done right, they will benefit long before they make a decision about
getting a ham license.


Michael VE2BVW
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Old January 26th 07, 08:16 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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Posts: 49
Default Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?

In fourth grade (1952) a camp counselor had built a voice radio transmitter
that put out a signal on the broadcast band that we could hear all over the
campground. Was it illegal? HELL yes, it put out almost a watt into a
random wire antenna. Could it be heard a couple of miles away? HELL no. It
was a watt into a junk antenna.

That illegal transmitter put this kid into a 50 year career as an
electronics engineer with a lot of stops along the way.

My advice ... build a VOICE transmitter that has a couple of miles range and
let the kids have fun with it.

Licenses, we don't need no steenking licenses...

Jim


wrote in message
ups.com...
All,

I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on
how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the
Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science
teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for
the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator.



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Old January 26th 07, 02:01 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.homebrew
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First recorded activity by RadioBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 263
Default Where does part 97 end and part 15 begin?

On Jan 25, 9:23 pm, wrote:
I have a situation, and would like some opinions rather than flames on
how to handle it. My wife teaches at a public school just off the
Easter Arizona Navajo reservation. Lately, a junior school science
teacher is starting up a science club and has asked me to provide for
the amateur radio side of the club and be its control operator.

She believes that the kids would be fascinated by the Morse code -
Dxing - Construction end of the hobby, even though Morse is no longer a
required test element.

The kids are mostly Navajo and thusly have a very limited technological
background (hence the reason for the club to stir the interest), so I
need something concrete with immediate payoff to keep their interest
hooked while getting them as ready as I can to write their Technician
exam. The nearest VEC is 4 hours away and I'd rather have as few fail
as possible.

I had thought to start an unlicensed micro-power code practice net
whose range would be limited to about a 30 mile radius, which is about
the size of the local reservation right next to the school.

What I want to do is provide each kid with a popcorn CW transceiver for
the colorburst frequency (3579 khz), a key, a short random wire, and a
battery. That way they could practice amongst themselves with
myself as occasional net control.


Ignoring your legal question, a suggestion:

Radio isn't too impressive among kids these days. Especially in
lesser-developed parts of the world (I honestly don't know how much
that overlaps with these kids?) everybody has a cellphone anyways.

So if Morse code is to be an attractor (and it is, being an arcane art
with secret-code aspects, going to be somewhat attractive to at least
some kids), start with wired operation. Yeah, it's really super-basic:
battery, key, beeper, wires, maybe a blinking light bulb. But if you
skip the basics (and it sounds like these kids may have already missed
the basics) then they'll get nothing out of it anyway.

I've worked with similar school-age kids in a vastly more
developed/educated part of the U.S. and they generally don't know how
to wire a light bulb to a battery even though they all know how to use
a USB keychain to exchange MP3's via myspace accounts.

If you're lucky, you'll find a one or two techie kids who take after
the detailed radio interests not too different than your own.
Otherwise, aim low, very very low in terms of complexity, in an effort
to bring up the low end rather than cater to the one or two kids who
would really benefit from your more advanced plans.

Tim.

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