John Siegel wrote:


Scott wrote:
I would have to say yes, since CW has always been allowed on ALL
amateur bands, from the bottom end to the top end of each.

Scott
N0EDV

julian814 wrote:

Now that code has been dropped from the license requirement, what will
happen to the CW frequencies? Will people still be able to use Morse
Code on them?


Ralph Glatt

FYI - THat is no longer 100% true since the spot frequencies on 60M are
USB only.
And 6 and 2 are the only places with CW only bands.

Wonder if A2 operation with USB tone modulated code would be legal on
these bands?

ken scharf wrote:
Wonder if A2 operation with USB tone modulated code would be legal on
these bands?

Probably not. Unless of course, you retitled it "pentature encoded tone
shift digital modulation". Morse code is really 5 different bits of
information, dit, dah, between character space, between letter space,
and a between word/empty space. If you count the space between messages
as a seperate data point, then it becomes hexature encoded.

Bear in mind Morse code was designed to be used in a mechanical punched
tape sending device. It was never meant to be sent or received by hand.
It was just by accident that an operator found out he could copy the message
directly into his head by listening to the sound of the pen.

Vail, not Morse, replaced the tape sender with a hand key, and dropped
the pen from the receiver.

Like "diHydrogen monOxide", it could become popular on the Internet.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

On Feb 16, 2:00?am, (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote:
ken scharf wrote:
Wonder if A2 operation with USB tone modulated code would be legal on
these bands?

Bear in mind Morse code was designed to be used in a mechanical punched
tape sending device. It was never meant to be sent or received by hand.
It was just by accident that an operator found out he could copy the message
directly into his head by listening to the sound of the pen.

Ahem...small disagreement there. Morse's original "code" was
all numeric and the receiver was an inked trace on paper tape.

Vail, not Morse, replaced the tape sender with a hand key, and dropped
the pen from the receiver.

Alfred Vail's family was Morse's financial benefactor. The Vail
locomotive works tried to get the ink pen receiver to work
reliably and couldn't. At the same time Morse was having
trouble organizing his all-number "code" to cover enough
English language common phrases. According to the Vail
family website information, Alfred Vail suggested to Morse that
the whole English alphabet should be part of the "code."
Alfred suggested copying the frequency of letters of a printer's
type case as a way to make the most-used characters take
the least time to send.

Eventually, long after the hand key and acoustic "sounder"
were in common use, the ink-printed-on-paper-tape (or drum)
came back for very long circuits such as under-ocean lines.


Like "diHydrogen monOxide", it could become popular on the Internet.

Good stuff! I have a couple glasses of dihydrogen monoxide
every day! :-)

I even shower with it! :-)

wrote:
On Feb 16, 2:00?am, (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote:
ken scharf wrote:
Wonder if A2 operation with USB tone modulated code would be legal on
these bands?

Bear in mind Morse code was designed to be used in a mechanical punched
tape sending device. It was never meant to be sent or received by hand.
It was just by accident that an operator found out he could copy the message
directly into his head by listening to the sound of the pen.

Ahem...small disagreement there. Morse's original "code" was
all numeric and the receiver was an inked trace on paper tape.

Vail, not Morse, replaced the tape sender with a hand key, and dropped
the pen from the receiver.

Alfred Vail's family was Morse's financial benefactor. The Vail
locomotive works tried to get the ink pen receiver to work
reliably and couldn't. At the same time Morse was having
trouble organizing his all-number "code" to cover enough
English language common phrases. According to the Vail
family website information, Alfred Vail suggested to Morse that
the whole English alphabet should be part of the "code."
Alfred suggested copying the frequency of letters of a printer's
type case as a way to make the most-used characters take
the least time to send.

Eventually, long after the hand key and acoustic "sounder"
were in common use, the ink-printed-on-paper-tape (or drum)
came back for very long circuits such as under-ocean lines.


Like "diHydrogen monOxide", it could become popular on the Internet.

Good stuff! I have a couple glasses of dihydrogen monoxide
every day! :-)

I even shower with it! :-)




Also the "Morse" code invented by the man of the same name is NOT the
same cypher (it's NOT really a code!) that we hams use over the air. WE
use what's actually called the "international radio telegraph" cypher
(code). True Morse has characters based on dots, dashes, long dashes,
and variable spaces! Also as sent over the land line the operator had
to listen for the gap between clicks NOT the sound of the clicks! Try
that folks!

From: ken scharf on Sat, Feb 17 2007 9:17 am

wrote:
On Feb 16, 2:00?am, (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote:
ken scharf wrote:
Wonder if A2 operation with USB tone modulated code would be legal on
these bands?

Bear in mind Morse code was designed to be used in a mechanical punched
tape sending device. It was never meant to be sent or received by hand.
It was just by accident that an operator found out he could copy the message
directly into his head by listening to the sound of the pen.

Ahem...small disagreement there. Morse's original "code" was
all numeric and the receiver was an inked trace on paper tape.

Vail, not Morse, replaced the tape sender with a hand key, and dropped
the pen from the receiver.

Alfred Vail's family was Morse's financial benefactor. The Vail
locomotive works tried to get the ink pen receiver to work
reliably and couldn't. At the same time Morse was having
trouble organizing his all-number "code" to cover enough
English language common phrases. According to the Vail
family website information, Alfred Vail suggested to Morse that
the whole English alphabet should be part of the "code."
Alfred suggested copying the frequency of letters of a printer's
type case as a way to make the most-used characters take
the least time to send.

Eventually, long after the hand key and acoustic "sounder"
were in common use, the ink-printed-on-paper-tape (or drum)
came back for very long circuits such as under-ocean lines.


Also the "Morse" code invented by the man of the same name is NOT the
same cypher (it's NOT really a code!) that we hams use over the air.

Irrelevant in the historical context of 1844 (163 years ago)
and the beginning of the Morse-Vail Telegraph Company...or
the period of 52 years of landline telegraphy before the
first demonstration of radio as a communications medium in
1896 (in Italy and Russia). In that period between 1844
and the "turn of the Century" (1899-1900) landline telegraphy
became a mature financial success and was duplicated (in
"technology") around the world, partly on the Morse-Vail
innovation-invention of the "relay." That "relay" enabled
a single telegraph circuit to extend over three times its
un-relayed length and reduced the capital investment of the
telegraph companies.

Underwater telegraph lines proved a financial success despite
the high cost of such telegrams. But, technically, such under-
water lines suffered high line losses, necessitating the
return to galvanometer-like ink pens at the receiving end...
the original intent of Morse's telegraph system.

The word "code" is a very, very general descriptor of any
system that uses a REPRESENTATION of a language or
communication data. Other examples are the so-called Baudot
code (5-level) or ASCII, the American Standard Code for
Information Interchange (8-level) in teleprinting systems.
The word "cypher" also has many meanings (including old
references to mathematical operations) but, in the modern
sense becomes more allied with cryptographic methods of
obscuring the meaning of communications. See 'crypto'
references to differences of "cyphertext" and "cleartext."

In the half-century prior to 1900 ("turn of the century"
in the phrase of older times), a great number of different
"dialects" of the "morse code" were generated, mostly to
fit the languages of its users. By that turn of the century
time land and sea telegraph systems had multiplied and
were confounded by all the various languages and dialects
of the telegraphic code. That was resolved somewhat by an
international standards group called by the French acronym
CCITT. The CCITT resolved a great number of communications
means, protocols, tariffs, and methodologies to enable a
quicker 'throughput' of communications between countries.
What eventually came out of the CCITT telegraph standards
work as the "international telegraph code" was based on
the English alphabet, numerical notation, and punctuation.
That wasn't because English was a "better" language but
simply that it was the MOST USED language for international
telegraphy AT THE TIME. Note that the teleprinter codes
were also standardized on the 5-level system. Teleprinter
systems would eventually dominate and succeed telegraphy
systems for international communications.

Geoffrey and I were communicating on the OLD technology of
(largely) manual telegraphy systems. It is not demeaning
to say that such pre-1900 technology was PRIMITIVE. It
was. There were no vacuum tubes to amplify anything and
certainly no "radio" (until 1896 public demonstrations).
Exactly what the early manual telegraphers did is relatively
unimportant to the modern-day radio-electronics amateur
radio world. Whatever they did was a relative success over
a half-century of use and growth. But, that success was
based on PRIMITIVE electrical technology.

What seems to be overlooked in early telegraphic technology
is the remarkable innovation of the RELAY. A simple electro-
magnet driving a contact. Make the electromagnet sensitive
enough to work with a 30-mile stretch of wires...wires NOT
made to uniform standards which had not yet been developed.
This simple relay could form an UNATTENDED telegraph station
along a route, having its own battery for powering the out-
going line to the next station, keyed by the relay contacts.
Up to three unattended relays could be used on one
circuit...reaching up to 100 miles in length before the
circuit characteristics began causing errors in transmission.
No real time of transmission ensued, something that had to
be considered with attended stations and the operator copying
down one telegram, then resending it manually to the next
station. Think of the telegraphic relay as a predecessor
to the modern-day radio REPEATER. Same unattended method
of relaying a communication, almost in real time.

WE
use what's actually called the "international radio telegraph" cypher
(code). True Morse has characters based on dots, dashes, long dashes,
and variable spaces!

That code is fully described as to dots, dashes, and spacing
in the referenced document given in the "Definitions" section
of Part 97, Title 47 C.F.R., as it applies to USA radio
amateurs. I have a copy of that, purchased from the ITU.
Interestingly, that same document does not define the
equivalent rate-of-transmission...although the USA amateur
radio regulations imply that it does.

Also as sent over the land line the operator had
to listen for the gap between clicks NOT the sound of the clicks! Try
that folks!

Irrelevant as to what any telegraph operator did prior to
1900...except for historical notation. None of the participants
of any newsgroups were alive then and therefore none can be
"witnesses" to corroborate methods of early telegraph reception.

Perhaps the first appearance of the "BFO" in radio reception
was an experiment by early radio innovator Reginald Fessenden.
Fessenden ran a low-power Spark transmitter next to his early
receiving detector and noted that detector sensitivity was
increased (his major area of experimental research at the
time. He did not coin any term such as "beat frequency
oscillator;" that came later after Armstrong invented the
"super-heterodyne" receiver (name in reference to Fessenden's
experiment notation) with a fixed-tuned IF.

To simulate the "listening between clicks" on a radio, simply
turn the BFO OFF with a strong "CW" signal coming in. That
isn't a good duplication because there is a slight hiss of the
distant carrier when it is on, perhaps a tiny bit of hum. If
the distant signal is weak, the spaces between carrier-on
dots and dashes would have some random noise. Either way, it
is not a good way to "copy CW" without that BFO.

---

The start of this thread was a question on whether or not FCC
06-178 that goes into effect on 23 Feb 07 will "eliminate the
CW bands." It will not as is noted in FCC 06-178. Let's not
deviate into esoteric realms of potential flame-war ignition
about "true morse code." USA amateur radio regulations are
rather specific on the relative lengths and spacing of
International Morse Code as defined by the ITU.

As to "homebrew" subjects, I submit that the Morse-Vail
telegraph patent was an example of that in their "relay."
Electro-magnets were known in 1844. Wire characteristics
and early DC batteries were known. The telegraph patent
connected them all in that "relay," something that no one
else seems to have done at the time. Now, I consider that
to be in the best spirit of "homebrewing." Innovation,
doing what had not been done before. Others mileage may
vary...

wrote:

Also as sent over the land line the operator had
to listen for the gap between clicks NOT the sound of the clicks! Try
that folks!

Irrelevant as to what any telegraph operator did prior to
1900...except for historical notation.

On the contrary, the 'clicker' persisted in some parts of the US
railroad system into at least the 1930s. My wife's father had been a
telegrapher with the Delaware & Hudson, and on joining the US Army for
WW2 he was re-trained to International Morse. He spent the rest of the
war still pounding brass, just doing it differently than before.

However, he didn't go back to the D&H in 1945, so others must determine
exactly when the clicker did die out.


None of the participants
of any newsgroups were alive then and therefore none can be
"witnesses" to corroborate methods of early telegraph reception.

Call the surprise witness...

Witness relates that sometime around 1962, she visited Knott's Berry
Farm with her Dad, Mom and sister. This was back when it was a working
fruit farm, which had expanded into serving home style chicken dinners
and berry pies.

The family made a reservation for a chicken dinner, and because these
were so popular, the Farm had to give visitors something to do while
they were waiting for the second sitting. They hit on the idea of
re-creating an authentic Western ghost town, correct in every detail.

So it came to pass that the whole family wandered into the office at the
railroad station. There was the telegraph, clicking away... Dad froze
in intense concentration, and then doubled over with laughter! When he
got his breath back, he told Mom and the girls what the clicks were
saying:

"Eat chicken dinners"

"Eat chicken dinners"

"Eat chicken dinners"

"Eat chicken dinners"

Witness personally affirms that the message was delivered through the
clicking of the telegraph sounder.

Witness is now MM3YNW, and is standing watching me type this. Don't you
all think she should learn Morse to continue the family tradition?


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK

Witness is now MM3YNW, and is standing watching me type this. Don't you
all think she should learn Morse to continue the family tradition?
=============================
Yes ,I feel she should ,having done the FL primer .
Welcome to the AR community.

Frank KN6WH / GM0CSZ

From: Ian White GM3SEK on Sun, 18 Feb 2007
22:23:56 +0000

wrote:

Also as sent over the land line the operator had
to listen for the gap between clicks NOT the sound of the clicks! Try
that folks!

Irrelevant as to what any telegraph operator did prior to
1900...except for historical notation.

On the contrary, the 'clicker' persisted in some parts of the US
railroad system into at least the 1930s. My wife's father had been a
telegrapher with the Delaware & Hudson, and on joining the US Army for
WW2 he was re-trained to International Morse. He spent the rest of the
war still pounding brass, just doing it differently than before.

However, he didn't go back to the D&H in 1945, so others must determine
exactly when the clicker did die out.

What I described was PRIOR to 1900.

A few railroad carriers in the USA continued with manual
telegraphy until about 1960. But, in fairness to the
world of communications, those were rare.

The railroad system in the USA is not small and it is also
not the biggest carrier of freight over here. Outside of
the roll-on containers carried by rail between drop-off
and pick-up points, the majority of land freight here goes
by truck on our large highway system.

Most of the railways over here had begun converting to
data communications in various forms prior to 1940.


Call the surprise witness...

Witness relates that sometime around 1962, she visited Knott's Berry
Farm with her Dad, Mom and sister. This was back when it was a working
fruit farm, which had expanded into serving home style chicken dinners
and berry pies.

Knott's Berry Farm is a popular tourist spot in southern
California...relatively close to the original Disneyland.
It is roughly an hours' drive south from my Los Angeles
residence.

So it came to pass that the whole family wandered into the office at the
railroad station. There was the telegraph, clicking away... Dad froze
in intense concentration, and then doubled over with laughter! When he
got his breath back, he told Mom and the girls what the clicks were
saying:

"Eat chicken dinners"

No doubt. The Knotts place IS a tourist attraction. But,
that reproduction of a railroad station is nothing more
than a reproduction. It is not a working communications
station. There are several railway station reproductions
in the Greater Los Angeles area and parts of them on
various motion picture production lots. Perhaps the best
one is on the north side of Griffith Park (closest to my
southern home) which is also a railway museum.

Knotts also has several buggies and a reproduction of an
"old west" stagecoach. Neither of which are used in any
public transportation outside of the park. In the motion
picture industry here (very big) there is a mild
contention as to which craftsmen build the "best
stagecoaches" (using modern materials having better
characteristics). Those can be made to "break apart"
safely for the cameras and stunt people riding them.
However, stagecoaches have not been used for public
transportation here for decades.


Witness personally affirms that the message was delivered through the
clicking of the telegraph sounder.

I have nothing against that. In nearby Anaheim, Disneyland
still has a flight to the moon experience (in Tomorrowland)
yet it never leaves the ground. One can also take a ride in
a "submarine" but not go more than a few feet below
the water's surface.

Witness is now MM3YNW, and is standing watching me type this. Don't you
all think she should learn Morse to continue the family tradition?

That is up the family suddenly thrust upon this (non)
discussion.

I was unaware that "wives and families" suddenly had some
impact on what is known about telegraphic communications
history in its half century before "radio" was demonstrated
as a communications medium.

I first "fired up" on HF in February 1953, part of my being
assigned to a US Army communications station in Tokyo. That
was a small 1 KW HF transmitter using TTY FSK. There were
three dozen other transmitters there; six more would be
added by 1955. NONE of the radio circuits of this 3rd
largest Army station used any OOK CW mode of modulation.
In my subsequent career change after service into
electronics design engineer I've never had a requirement
to use OOK CW on radio. Until 2005 when my wife and I bought
a new car having a keyless entry radio-on-a-chain-fob. That
fob transmitter is OOK CW. But, its data rate is beyond
human cognition, ANY human.

In 1969 my father and father-in-law were still alive. Both
watched, in widely separated geographical locations (in
the comfort of their homes), LIVE video from the moon as
the first two humans stepped onto the lunar surface. Both
my father and father-in-law were born in the year 1900...
one year before Marconi's trans-Atlantic test radio
transmission and three years before the Wright Brothers
demonstrated the first heavier than air flight. Both
astronauts plus Collins in the lunar orbiter were in
constant touch with earth by radio...for both
communications and telemetry, guided there by computers
of several kinds, on earth as well as in the reentry
and descent/ascent capsule.

I have nothing against telegraphic skills nor anyone using
those for personal pleasure. However, in the light of
advancement of the electronic arts, communications, radio,
methods that ALL of us can share, I think there is an
over-much emphasis by radio hobbyists on telegraphic arts.
Manual telegraphy IS a historic first but it has been
supplanted in practical communications means at our
disposal...on land, in the air, on the sea, and in space.

I think we should be looking FORWARD to the future, not
back to the past. Others disagree. I leave it at that.

On Feb 18, 11:15�pm, "
wrote:
From: Ian White GM3SEK on Sun, 18 Feb 2007
22:23:56 +0000

* *The railroad system in the USA is not small and it is also
* *not the biggest carrier of freight over here.

Actually, that depends on how you define "biggest".

*Outside of
* *the roll-on containers carried by rail between drop-off
* *and pick-up points, the majority of land freight here goes
* *by truck on our large highway system.

Freight transportation professionals measure by the unit
of ton-mile. By that measure, rail is the #1 provider of US
freight transportation.

* *Most of the railways over here had begun converting to
* *data communications in various forms prior to 1940.

That's true. Some manual Morse telegraphy survived into the
1960s, but in general the use of teletype and voice comms
had become standard by the 1950s. Also, much of the need
for telegraph communications was eliminated by changes to
the dispatching systems in use.


* *I first "fired up" on HF in February 1953, part of my being
* *assigned to a US Army communications station in Tokyo. *

A station that was maintained by several hundred Army personnel.

That
* *was a small 1 KW HF transmitter using TTY FSK. *There were
* *three dozen other transmitters there; six more would be
* *added by 1955. *NONE of the radio circuits of this 3rd
* *largest Army station used any OOK CW mode of modulation.

However, that was one station in one place. It was not necessarily
representative of all military radio communications at the time, nor
of amateur radio communications, then or now.

* *In my subsequent career change after service into
* *electronics design engineer I've never had a requirement
* *to use OOK CW on radio. *

You have also never been a radio amateur. Nor a professional
radio operator.

Until 2005 when my wife and I bought
* *a new car having a keyless entry radio-on-a-chain-fob. *That
* *fob transmitter is OOK CW. *But, its data rate is beyond
* *human cognition, ANY human.

* *In 1969 my father and father-in-law were still alive. *Both
* *watched, in widely separated geographical locations (in
* *the comfort of their homes), LIVE video from the moon as
* *the first two humans stepped onto the lunar surface. *Both
* *my father and father-in-law were born in the year 1900...
* *one year before Marconi's trans-Atlantic test radio
* *transmission and three years before the Wright Brothers
* *demonstrated the first heavier than air flight. *Both
* *astronauts plus Collins in the lunar orbiter were in
* *constant touch with earth by radio...for both
* *communications and telemetry, guided there by computers
* *of several kinds, on earth as well as in the reentry
* *and descent/ascent capsule.

Of what relevance is that to amateur radio?

* *I have nothing against telegraphic skills nor anyone using
* *those for personal pleasure. *

Many of your statements elsewhere on Usenet contradict that.

However, in the light of
* *advancement of the electronic arts, communications, radio,
* *methods that ALL of us can share, I think there is an
* *over-much emphasis by radio hobbyists on telegraphic arts.

IOW, it's OK with you if someone uses it, as long as they don't
emphasize it.

* *Manual telegraphy IS a historic first but it has been
* *supplanted in practical communications means at our
* *disposal...on land, in the air, on the sea, and in space.

Morse Code is also practical communications. And it is widely
used in amateur radio today.

* *I think we should be looking FORWARD to the future, not
* *back to the past. *Others disagree. *I leave it at that.

What does "FORWARD to the future" really mean in that context?

Jim, N2EY

On Feb 19, 10:02?am, wrote:

Policy matters-arguments-discussions belong on
rec.radio.amateur.policy.

This newsgroup is for experimentation and building
radio-electronics in the home workshop.