wrote:

Also as sent over the land line the operator had
to listen for the gap between clicks NOT the sound of the clicks! Try
that folks!

Irrelevant as to what any telegraph operator did prior to
1900...except for historical notation.

On the contrary, the 'clicker' persisted in some parts of the US
railroad system into at least the 1930s. My wife's father had been a
telegrapher with the Delaware & Hudson, and on joining the US Army for
WW2 he was re-trained to International Morse. He spent the rest of the
war still pounding brass, just doing it differently than before.

However, he didn't go back to the D&H in 1945, so others must determine
exactly when the clicker did die out.


None of the participants
of any newsgroups were alive then and therefore none can be
"witnesses" to corroborate methods of early telegraph reception.

Call the surprise witness...

Witness relates that sometime around 1962, she visited Knott's Berry
Farm with her Dad, Mom and sister. This was back when it was a working
fruit farm, which had expanded into serving home style chicken dinners
and berry pies.

The family made a reservation for a chicken dinner, and because these
were so popular, the Farm had to give visitors something to do while
they were waiting for the second sitting. They hit on the idea of
re-creating an authentic Western ghost town, correct in every detail.

So it came to pass that the whole family wandered into the office at the
railroad station. There was the telegraph, clicking away... Dad froze
in intense concentration, and then doubled over with laughter! When he
got his breath back, he told Mom and the girls what the clicks were
saying:

"Eat chicken dinners"

"Eat chicken dinners"

"Eat chicken dinners"

"Eat chicken dinners"

Witness personally affirms that the message was delivered through the
clicking of the telegraph sounder.

Witness is now MM3YNW, and is standing watching me type this. Don't you
all think she should learn Morse to continue the family tradition?


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK

Witness is now MM3YNW, and is standing watching me type this. Don't you
all think she should learn Morse to continue the family tradition?
=============================
Yes ,I feel she should ,having done the FL primer .
Welcome to the AR community.

Frank KN6WH / GM0CSZ

From: Ian White GM3SEK on Sun, 18 Feb 2007
22:23:56 +0000

wrote:

Also as sent over the land line the operator had
to listen for the gap between clicks NOT the sound of the clicks! Try
that folks!

Irrelevant as to what any telegraph operator did prior to
1900...except for historical notation.

On the contrary, the 'clicker' persisted in some parts of the US
railroad system into at least the 1930s. My wife's father had been a
telegrapher with the Delaware & Hudson, and on joining the US Army for
WW2 he was re-trained to International Morse. He spent the rest of the
war still pounding brass, just doing it differently than before.

However, he didn't go back to the D&H in 1945, so others must determine
exactly when the clicker did die out.

What I described was PRIOR to 1900.

A few railroad carriers in the USA continued with manual
telegraphy until about 1960. But, in fairness to the
world of communications, those were rare.

The railroad system in the USA is not small and it is also
not the biggest carrier of freight over here. Outside of
the roll-on containers carried by rail between drop-off
and pick-up points, the majority of land freight here goes
by truck on our large highway system.

Most of the railways over here had begun converting to
data communications in various forms prior to 1940.


Call the surprise witness...

Witness relates that sometime around 1962, she visited Knott's Berry
Farm with her Dad, Mom and sister. This was back when it was a working
fruit farm, which had expanded into serving home style chicken dinners
and berry pies.

Knott's Berry Farm is a popular tourist spot in southern
California...relatively close to the original Disneyland.
It is roughly an hours' drive south from my Los Angeles
residence.

So it came to pass that the whole family wandered into the office at the
railroad station. There was the telegraph, clicking away... Dad froze
in intense concentration, and then doubled over with laughter! When he
got his breath back, he told Mom and the girls what the clicks were
saying:

"Eat chicken dinners"

No doubt. The Knotts place IS a tourist attraction. But,
that reproduction of a railroad station is nothing more
than a reproduction. It is not a working communications
station. There are several railway station reproductions
in the Greater Los Angeles area and parts of them on
various motion picture production lots. Perhaps the best
one is on the north side of Griffith Park (closest to my
southern home) which is also a railway museum.

Knotts also has several buggies and a reproduction of an
"old west" stagecoach. Neither of which are used in any
public transportation outside of the park. In the motion
picture industry here (very big) there is a mild
contention as to which craftsmen build the "best
stagecoaches" (using modern materials having better
characteristics). Those can be made to "break apart"
safely for the cameras and stunt people riding them.
However, stagecoaches have not been used for public
transportation here for decades.


Witness personally affirms that the message was delivered through the
clicking of the telegraph sounder.

I have nothing against that. In nearby Anaheim, Disneyland
still has a flight to the moon experience (in Tomorrowland)
yet it never leaves the ground. One can also take a ride in
a "submarine" but not go more than a few feet below
the water's surface.

Witness is now MM3YNW, and is standing watching me type this. Don't you
all think she should learn Morse to continue the family tradition?

That is up the family suddenly thrust upon this (non)
discussion.

I was unaware that "wives and families" suddenly had some
impact on what is known about telegraphic communications
history in its half century before "radio" was demonstrated
as a communications medium.

I first "fired up" on HF in February 1953, part of my being
assigned to a US Army communications station in Tokyo. That
was a small 1 KW HF transmitter using TTY FSK. There were
three dozen other transmitters there; six more would be
added by 1955. NONE of the radio circuits of this 3rd
largest Army station used any OOK CW mode of modulation.
In my subsequent career change after service into
electronics design engineer I've never had a requirement
to use OOK CW on radio. Until 2005 when my wife and I bought
a new car having a keyless entry radio-on-a-chain-fob. That
fob transmitter is OOK CW. But, its data rate is beyond
human cognition, ANY human.

In 1969 my father and father-in-law were still alive. Both
watched, in widely separated geographical locations (in
the comfort of their homes), LIVE video from the moon as
the first two humans stepped onto the lunar surface. Both
my father and father-in-law were born in the year 1900...
one year before Marconi's trans-Atlantic test radio
transmission and three years before the Wright Brothers
demonstrated the first heavier than air flight. Both
astronauts plus Collins in the lunar orbiter were in
constant touch with earth by radio...for both
communications and telemetry, guided there by computers
of several kinds, on earth as well as in the reentry
and descent/ascent capsule.

I have nothing against telegraphic skills nor anyone using
those for personal pleasure. However, in the light of
advancement of the electronic arts, communications, radio,
methods that ALL of us can share, I think there is an
over-much emphasis by radio hobbyists on telegraphic arts.
Manual telegraphy IS a historic first but it has been
supplanted in practical communications means at our
disposal...on land, in the air, on the sea, and in space.

I think we should be looking FORWARD to the future, not
back to the past. Others disagree. I leave it at that.

On Feb 18, 11:15�pm, "
wrote:
From: Ian White GM3SEK on Sun, 18 Feb 2007
22:23:56 +0000

* *The railroad system in the USA is not small and it is also
* *not the biggest carrier of freight over here.

Actually, that depends on how you define "biggest".

*Outside of
* *the roll-on containers carried by rail between drop-off
* *and pick-up points, the majority of land freight here goes
* *by truck on our large highway system.

Freight transportation professionals measure by the unit
of ton-mile. By that measure, rail is the #1 provider of US
freight transportation.

* *Most of the railways over here had begun converting to
* *data communications in various forms prior to 1940.

That's true. Some manual Morse telegraphy survived into the
1960s, but in general the use of teletype and voice comms
had become standard by the 1950s. Also, much of the need
for telegraph communications was eliminated by changes to
the dispatching systems in use.


* *I first "fired up" on HF in February 1953, part of my being
* *assigned to a US Army communications station in Tokyo. *

A station that was maintained by several hundred Army personnel.

That
* *was a small 1 KW HF transmitter using TTY FSK. *There were
* *three dozen other transmitters there; six more would be
* *added by 1955. *NONE of the radio circuits of this 3rd
* *largest Army station used any OOK CW mode of modulation.

However, that was one station in one place. It was not necessarily
representative of all military radio communications at the time, nor
of amateur radio communications, then or now.

* *In my subsequent career change after service into
* *electronics design engineer I've never had a requirement
* *to use OOK CW on radio. *

You have also never been a radio amateur. Nor a professional
radio operator.

Until 2005 when my wife and I bought
* *a new car having a keyless entry radio-on-a-chain-fob. *That
* *fob transmitter is OOK CW. *But, its data rate is beyond
* *human cognition, ANY human.

* *In 1969 my father and father-in-law were still alive. *Both
* *watched, in widely separated geographical locations (in
* *the comfort of their homes), LIVE video from the moon as
* *the first two humans stepped onto the lunar surface. *Both
* *my father and father-in-law were born in the year 1900...
* *one year before Marconi's trans-Atlantic test radio
* *transmission and three years before the Wright Brothers
* *demonstrated the first heavier than air flight. *Both
* *astronauts plus Collins in the lunar orbiter were in
* *constant touch with earth by radio...for both
* *communications and telemetry, guided there by computers
* *of several kinds, on earth as well as in the reentry
* *and descent/ascent capsule.

Of what relevance is that to amateur radio?

* *I have nothing against telegraphic skills nor anyone using
* *those for personal pleasure. *

Many of your statements elsewhere on Usenet contradict that.

However, in the light of
* *advancement of the electronic arts, communications, radio,
* *methods that ALL of us can share, I think there is an
* *over-much emphasis by radio hobbyists on telegraphic arts.

IOW, it's OK with you if someone uses it, as long as they don't
emphasize it.

* *Manual telegraphy IS a historic first but it has been
* *supplanted in practical communications means at our
* *disposal...on land, in the air, on the sea, and in space.

Morse Code is also practical communications. And it is widely
used in amateur radio today.

* *I think we should be looking FORWARD to the future, not
* *back to the past. *Others disagree. *I leave it at that.

What does "FORWARD to the future" really mean in that context?

Jim, N2EY

On Feb 19, 10:02?am, wrote:

Policy matters-arguments-discussions belong on
rec.radio.amateur.policy.

This newsgroup is for experimentation and building
radio-electronics in the home workshop.

On Feb 19, 6:53�pm, "
wrote:
On Feb 19, 10:02?am, wrote:

(whole lot of stuff that was snipped)


* *Policy matters-arguments-discussions belong on
* *rec.radio.amateur.policy.

Is this a moderated newsgroup?

Are you the moderator?

* *This newsgroup is for experimentation and building
* *radio-electronics in the home workshop.

Really?

The post of yours that I replied to contained comments
on the railroad system, landline telegraph communications,
Knott's Berry Farm and other tourist attractions, stagecoaches, wives-
and-families, your lack of use of
Morse Code in military communications, your parents
watching the lunar landings on TV, and keyless auto security systems.

I don't see a single word from you in that posting
about "experimentation and building radio-electronics
in the home workshop."

It also contained this personal policy statement from you:

"I have nothing against telegraphic skills nor anyone using
those for personal pleasure. However, in the light of
advancement of the electronic arts, communications,
radio, methods that ALL of us can share, I think there
is an over-much emphasis by radio hobbyists on
telegraphic arts. Manual telegraphy IS a historic first
but it has been supplanted in practical communications
means at our disposal...on land, in the air, on the sea,
and in space.

I think we should be looking FORWARD to the future, not
back to the past. Others disagree. I leave it at that."

Sure sounds like you were having a policy discussion
to me!

Jim, N2EY




*

On Feb 19, 6:24 pm, wrote:
On Feb 19, 6:53?pm, "
wrote:

On Feb 19, 10:02?am, wrote:

(whole lot of stuff that was snipped)



? ?Policy matters-arguments-discussions belong on
? ?rec.radio.amateur.policy.

Is this a moderated newsgroup?

Are you the moderator?



? ?This newsgroup is for experimentation and building
? ?radio-electronics in the home workshop.

Really?

The post of yours that I replied to contained comments
on the railroad system, landline telegraph communications,
Knott's Berry Farm and other tourist attractions, stagecoaches, wives-
and-families, your lack of use of
Morse Code in military communications, your parents
watching the lunar landings on TV, and keyless auto security systems.

I don't see a single word from you in that posting
about "experimentation and building radio-electronics
in the home workshop."

It also contained this personal policy statement from you:

"I have nothing against telegraphic skills nor anyone using
those for personal pleasure. However, in the light of
advancement of the electronic arts, communications,
radio, methods that ALL of us can share, I think there
is an over-much emphasis by radio hobbyists on
telegraphic arts. Manual telegraphy IS a historic first
but it has been supplanted in practical communications
means at our disposal...on land, in the air, on the sea,
and in space.

I think we should be looking FORWARD to the future, not
back to the past. Others disagree. I leave it at that."

Sure sounds like you were having a policy discussion
to me!

Jim, N2EY





? - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Here is an example of my second biggest peeve of these groups (the
first being spam). It's ego posts. LenAnderson seems to be intent on
demonstrating that he is the final authority; with an encyclopedic
knowledge of all he is typing about. And a few put-downs here and
there. Example: Ken Scharf made an interesting comment: "Also as sent
over the land line the operator had to listen for the gap between
clicks NOT the sound of the clicks! Try that folks!" Professor
Anderson had to reply with: "Irrelevant as to what any telegraph
operator did prior to
1900...except for historical notation." I applaud Ian White for
his gentle rebuttal of Anderson; but of course "Professor" Anderson
cannot be treated in such a manner. But I liked Jim, N2EY's
"comeback" better. Even though it was a bit off topic, this was a
nice discussion before the history lessons. I love history and I
believe that it is extremely important (under taught) but I perceive
that the spirit here was not to teach and inform. I am rather new to
these google groups, usually not having to time to sit here sorting
through posts and typing in some myself. But I have recently become
somewhat disabled (military service). I have a life-long interest in
vintage electronics, collect short-wave radios, and designed and built
my own receiver. I came to these Google groups looking to receive and
to share. It is distressing to witness ego flare-ups. Does this
happen often here? I've seen it a few times on other groups, and on
Yahoo.
Say, can anyone point me to some information on creating my own filter
chokes? Is there a source that anyone knows of for silicon-iron core
plates? Thanks
By the way, I despise flaming and I came a bit close to flaming
Anderson, but couldn't help but say something about a monologue like
his.

From: "tack" on 21 Feb 2007 09:56:32 -0800

Here is an example of my second biggest peeve of these groups (the
first being spam). It's ego posts. LenAnderson seems to be intent on
demonstrating that he is the final authority; with an encyclopedic
knowledge of all he is typing about.

If that is your perception as "the truth," then I submit
that "truth" is not correct.

REC.RADIO.AMATEUR.HOMEBREW is chartered for designing,
building radio equipment in the hobbyist's workshop; i.e.,
away from work in radio-electronics. You can read the
FORMAL definition of it all you want and not come away
with a much-different opinion.

What seems to be at question is whether or not KNOWLEDGE
should be shared. Plus, who is the "qualified" judge of
such knowledge. I've never claimed to be any ultimate
judge or lawgiver of historical data. However, I've
accumulated a number of decades of both professional
(paid for services) and hobby experience (no pay for
anything unless negative money outflow is a value) that
stretches back to 1947. It is my personal opinion that
radio-electronics is a totally-fascinating field of
technology...so much so that I changed my career goals
in life to electronics engineering after release from
my US Army service. I've never been disappointed in that
decision.

NO ONE here has any life experience in anything (including
telegraphy) prior to the year 1900. ALL that any of us
have for information on such long-ago times is historical
descriptions. One of the problems with such historical
information is WHO (or which organization) wrote it. An
example is "morse code." Samuel F. B. Morse's "code" was
originally all-numeric. That included the famous first
message communicated by the Morse-Vail Telegraph Company
from Washington, DC, to Baltimore, MD, in 1844. Morse's
financial "angel" to the development of the telegraph
system was the Vail family who got their money from rail-
way equipment building. Alfred Vail would, according to
the Vail descendents' website information and several
other sources including the Radio Club of America, later
suggest changing from an all-numerica code to one which
included representation of the letters and common
punctuation of the English language as well as Arabic
numerals. This was pivotal in the success of the Morse-
Vail telegraph system since, in effect, the code could be
generated-sent-received and near-immediately transcribed
into a common language.

There was no need of phrase books to translate phrases
and words into a numeric code, then re-translate it on
reception. But that was only the second of two
innovations. The real first was described in the Morse-
Vail Telegraph Patent as the "relay." That relay was
quite similar to what is in wide use in electrical and
electronic equipment today...a 'sensitive' (low-power)
electromagnet mechanically and magnetically coupled to
an electrical contact. That contact could substitute
for the transmitting key/switch and thus power a second
telegraph line through a local battery and extend that
telegraph line farther than the original circuit. Up
to three such relays could be used given the
technological limits of early electrical apparatus.
It is my opinion (not "ego") that the telegraph Relay
was the primary key to the success of the Morse-Vail
Telegraph system. That basic telegraph system spread
throughout the world during all of the later 1800s.

Let's consider INNOVATION and its relation to "radio" and
this morse code. The first radio-as-a-communications-means
was demonstrated in 1896, in Italy and in Russia. Morse
code was used in the on-off "radio wave" switching. Why
that? For one thing, that on-off code was already so
mature (52 years) and widespread that many "dialects" of
that representational code existed worldwide. Early radio
was so technologically-primitive that simple on-off
switching was the only PRACTICAL means to communicate.
On-off switching. That is what the Morse-Vail Telegraph
used in its RELAY contacts. The only technological
difference was that "radio" eliminated the wires using
electromagnetic wave propagation to carry the
communication. That was a revolutionary step for mariners
and quickly adopted. They could now 'signal' beyond the
visible horizon, something they were never able to do
quickly before this revolution.

But, in the midst of this revolutionary step of over-the-
horizon near-instant communications, the Mythos developed
about the Mode of "morse." Few could grasp the basic
principles of this new "radio" but they could identify
with the human-sensed on-off patterns and seeming magic
of the patterns translatable to human-understood speech.
Was the morse code the essential element to success of
early radio? Not precisely. Those early damped-wave
(spark-induced) "RF generators" and the gigantic rotary
alternators (operating at VLF) were still turned all-on
or all-off. What was essential for the speed of early
radio was in using an on-off representation for the
characters of a written language. The Morse-Vail
Telegraph used English. They were the first success
even though many had tried by various means prior to
1844. Had someone else in another country (and other
language) been first and innovative enough, the name
of the code could have been entirely different.

Innovation. Sometimes a necessity in hobby work. Some
parts may not be available yet their type would enable
simple operation and building. The hobbyist must
innovate to find substitutes. Sometimes that can be
done by others and thus worthy of spreading information
around. That's what newsgroups like this are good
for...informing others of something useful in the
hobby of designing-building-repairing of radio-
electronics.

Yes, there ARE diversions in this newsgroup into non-
hobby subjects. Especially so in the USA amateur radio
"revolution" of the elimination of morse code testing
for a US amateur radio license. Many are emotionally
wounded by that decision but that is just unfortunate
for them. Progress goes on, innovation continues, the
technology and ways to use that are evolving, changing.
But, some want to "rewrite" history (or selectively
use certain parts while omitting other parts) to make
their own personal point about something dear to their
hearts. James Miccolis is one of those over in RRAP.
He has an archived decade of experience in "correcting"
others in RRAP who do not agree with his one-sided
views of amateur radio.

For my part, I like to contribute information on
designing-building-repairing of radio-electronics. I
try to be accurate when doing so. No, I'm not
presumptuous about "knowing everything" since I don't.
I'm still learning things and eagerly do that...in
between trying to keep up with the constantly-
changing-state of the electronics art. We are all
diverse and many of us in here come from differing
occupations involving electronics. Yet I think that
ALL who really like to get involved in the technology
of radio-electronics DO want to contribute when we
can. It IS a fascinating field of technology.


By the way, I despise flaming and I came a bit close to flaming
Anderson, but couldn't help but say something about a monologue like
his.

"Flaming" happens. It is the nature of the beast.
You've already done what you despise but that doesn't
bother me. After 23 years of doing computer-modem
communications, I've seen much worse. :-)

"Monologues?" :-) Yes, others get that impression.
Sometimes one has to spend time "connecting the dots"
(so to speak) in order to prove a point to one-sided
others. Note: Explanations sometimes require more than
three sentences in a paragraph. I was influenced by the
enjoyable PBS series "Connections" by James Burke. There
is a huge MASS of inter-related technology that has been
developing among humans for centuries. I think it worthy
to examine as much of that as it applies as possible.
Others do not. shrug

Regards,
Leonard H. Anderson (real person, not a pseudonym)

ex-RA16408336

On Feb 21, 12:56�pm, "tack" wrote:

Say, can anyone point me to some information
on creating my own filter
chokes?

What size? Do you mean the type commonly used in
hollow-state gear - several henries at a couple of dozen
to a couple of hundred milliamps, insulated for hundreds
or thousands of volts?

If so, there is some info in older ARRL Handbooks and
in older versions of "Reference Data For Radio Engineers".

I can look up some details if needed.

*Is there a source that anyone knows of for silicon-iron
core plates? *

aka laminations

I googled "silicon iron transformer laminations" and found
a lot of stuff. Take a look. But I suspect that they may be
geared to production quantity orders.

One common source is the power transformer from an
old microwave oven. These are often welded together,
rather than bolted, and it may take a bit of work with a grinder to
get the core apart.

73 de Jim, N2EY