On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:56:07 -0700 (PDT) wrote:

How ironic is it that a major rework of a car's electronics will be
done to eliminate a few ounces of lead-tin solder, while the car's
battery contains many pounds of lead and acid?

I think you'll find that auto batteries are already VERY commonly
recycled, for exactly this reason.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

One of the biggest problems I have with the lead free solder is that
over time it tends to grow tin whiskers. Then it shorts out to adjacent
pads. Current reliability requirements are to encapsulate all the
solder joints with epoxy. This is painful and really causes problems
with rework.

No-lead; a feel-good solution to a non-problem.

Erich N6FD

From: on Thurs, Jun 5 2008 2:56 pm
On Jun 2, 2:38 pm, Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:
On May 29, 9:34?am, Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:
On May 28, 8:03 am, gwatts wrote:
AF6AY wrote:

OTOH, the little bottle of Strip-X with it's foul stench is probably not
going to cause anyone harm outside of self inflicted (i.e. suicide
attempts)

But it *is* dangerous stuff, and should have adequate warnings,
shouldn't it?

There's my magnitude issue. I'm in no way implying that there be no
warning on the bottles. I am implying that it is a useful product, and
legislating it out of existence, or just making it too much trouble for
a company to produce is not a good thing.

Something just occurred to me.

We don't *know* that Strip-X was discontinued because of health/safety/
environmental/"do-gooder" issues. That's pure speculation.

Sigh...so written communication from the manufacturer is 'no good?!?'

Oh, yes, it must be so. "Southgate Radio" (that big, big maker of
radios) hasn't issued a Proclamation yet to 'confirm' the fact.

It's quite possible - in fact, probable - that the reason Strip-X was
discontinued was lack of sales.

No one seems to have checked out General Cement and its line of
products. They've been in business for over 75 years, have regular
product displays and stocks at NON-ham electronics stores. Many of
those products have LOW sales rates. Their original product, an
acetate-based cement (originally intended to repair paper speaker
cones) is still in the current catalog (but under a different
product number than the original). Who 'repairs speaker cones'
these days? One can expect them to carry it for nothing other
than sentimental or nostalgic reasons given that there are MANY
kinds of cements available in NON-electronic stores that could do
the job as easy and probably better. It is, as acetate-based, no
different than hobby cements such as 'Testors Cement' also made
in the same city by by Testor Chemical Company (also still in
business for about the same time). It is incredibly cheap to
produce, costing no more than the original LEAD-based tube both
used to come in. Yes, youngsters, Testors Cement and GC
chemicals and every toothpaste made by anyone once came in LEAD
tubes! [horrors! contamination!]

One thing that you youngsters ASSUME is that insulation on magnet
wire has ALWAYS been the same to this day. Not true, but it is
impossible to tell some of the middle-aged knowitalls so (they
passed a code test in their teen years and have been extra class
a long time...harumpphhh).

At the introduction of 'wire-wrap' techniques (both in telco
infrastructure and in prototype digital PCB card construction),
roughly around the beginning 1960s, magnet wire manufacturers
were beginning to use LOWER-TEMPERATURE-MELTING insulation of
various kinds. "Solder-Eze" is one brand name that was very
successful...there are dozens of others. Look in any Kings,
Times or Belden full catalog.

PVC (PolyVinylChloride) insulation has been used on wire at the
end of WWII. PVC has a low melting point (relatively speaking).
MIL-W- specs of nylon-jacketed PVC wire was standard US military
wire in aircraft of the late 1940s. The nylon jacket adds
resistance to abrasion and has a higher melting point. Relatively
easy to mechanically strip nylon-jacketed PVC and it does not
'collapse' from melting if soldered too long using manual wiring.
With petroleum more abundant after WWII, other polymers were
developed and used, notably Teflon (TetraFlouroethylene) which
was relatively indestructable compared to predecessor insulations.

Hughes Aircraft Company El Segundo Division (made radars and
fire control systems for military aircraft) had surplus nylon-
jacketed PVC wire at their employee's store. I used some of
that to nearly-completely rewire the electrical system of my
restored 1953 Austin-Healey sports car in 1958. Much better wire
than the cotton-cloth covered gutta percha insulation of the
original English wiring.

After all, the *professionals* use
solder pots, not chemicals. Amateurs who are in the know use solder
pots, or a solder blob.

REAL "amateurs who are in the know" got their materials
experience IN the electronics INDUSTRY. Especially those who
who were involved in materials testing and design of both
electronic and physical construction.

By the way, this "Southgate Radio" you keep mentioning doesn't
seem to exist as anything but the name of a store up in Canada.
There IS a Southgate Amateur Radio Club in the Southgate section
of London, England...but their website doesn't seem to have
much on magnet wire stripping techniques. Lots of new solid-state
radio information there for radio amateurs, though.

I suspect that the market for Strip-X was so small it wasn't worth
producing any more.

SPECULATION! SPECULATION! When did the 'radio manufacturer' from
'Southgate Radio' ever visit GC or get a PROFESSIONAL chemical lab
to analyze what was in there? BTW, how many radios does 'Southgate
Radio' make each year?

We do have a system that is pretty good. The MSDS reports are pretty
slick and non-sensational.

Of course, they won't fit on that little bottle! 8^)

And folks have to read them and understand them.

Go to any food market in the USA to see lots of BIG labels of
contents, percentages, and FDA information on EVERY packaged
food product.

I'd rather read that than something about what "The state of California
knows" you know, those strange postings beside gasoline pumps? This
product is know to the State of California as a carcinogen" type stuff.

I wonder how many people called up the state of California to talk about
that?

bwaahaahaaa

Tsk, tsk, easterners back in PA making fun of the most populous
state in the USA...and once the capital of the aerospace industry
in the USA. It is also the state with the MOST licensed radio
amateurs in the USA.

What does "do-gooder done did too much with all those warnings and
attempts to protect us all from everything."
really mean? Are there too many warnings on dangerous chemicals?

I don't mind the warnings too much as long as they are not stupid
warnings. What I do mind is when a useful product goes away.

But as I wrote, we don't *know* that such things got rid of Strip-X. I
say it was solder pots.

If you DO say that, then you are NOT an "amateur in the know."

LOWER TEMPERATURE magnet wire insulation used in the electronics
industry enabled newer techniques of stripping insulation and
the use of 'melting by solder pot' VERY SMALL VOLUME production
technique...or connections by mechanical means that both broke
through insulation and made electrical connection. The "push-
down" rapid connection system for telcos is an example. Much,
much quicker to do, less labor intensive. Look at many of the
multiple-wire cable connectors that use a mechanical crimping
system to join every wire at once and also make an electrical
connection.

The predominant method of stripping magnet wire in the electronics
industry is the abrasive brush method which ALSO works for small
gauge insulated conventional wire. They don't fool around with
labor-intensive, one-of-a-kind techniques of construction used
by hobbyists.

Manufacturers of electric motors might use propane gas torches
to BURN off stator windings' magnet wire, heating it enough to
bare the copper and to solder to it in one operation. Same
thing for some (but not all) rotor windings. Electrical motor
makers use magent wire by the MILE and make them at relatively
low cost...and for very long life in high-torque AC powered
applications.


The "known to California" jargon means such controlled studies have
been done.

Spoken by Pennsylvanians without ever once doing any 'controlled
studies' of any subject involving California. Sigh...


For me at least, the comparison of mechanical with chemical issues is a
little hard to work.

Why? It's the same concept: reduction of avoidable risk.

The point is that the *professionals* who made the cars resisted
safety improvements that we now take for granted.

AFTER a whole bunch of litigious actions by those who were
trying to make personal profit via civil suits.

As an AMATEUR about automobiles, I put seat belts in the 2-door
Plymouth I came out west back in 1956. Bought a kit in 1957, put
them in the front seats myself. Did that with my restored Austin-
Healey, too. Made SENSE to do so...even though never involved in
any collision or 'roll-over.' The 1961 Chevy Impala convertible
that followed had seat belts already installed.

Aren't we talking WAY OFF the subject of WIRE STRIPPING here and
about times that few of you actually LIVED and EXPERIENCED?


On the other hand, I've silvered my telescope mirrors in my garage. This
involves a litany of nasty stuff, from Silver nitrate to potassium
hydroxide to nitric acid. (now that stuff is scary) And oddly enough,
sucrose and citric acid. I'd hate to be not allowed to do such things
because someone thought I might get hurt.

Hydroflouric acid is *really* nasty.

The Big Issue IMHO is whether a dangerous process can be made safer.
Is there a safer way to silver a telescope mirror?

Yes, there is, and it results in a mirror with fewer optical
aberrations on its surface. It is deposition of metal (usually
aluminum) in a vacuum. My lead-man at EOS, Doug McFarland, was
an amateur telescope maker (and licensed radio amateur) and got
his mirrors 'silvered' that way for his 6 and 10 inch refractors.

There *is* a safer way to remove enamel from wire, and you get the
added bonus of a tinned wire. Why use a chemical at all?

Try stripping some #42 enameled magnet wire made around 1950
by 'solder pot' or abrasive techniques and the end product
will not be very good. That old enamel covering will harden
with time. CHEMICAL means to loosen the enamel WITHOUT any
copper damage is the COMMON SENSE approach to getting an
electrical connection. It is fast, inexpensive, and, IF USED
WITH APPROPRIATE CAUTION, safe enough in an enivornment that is
FULL of MANY DANGERS.

Do you wear thermal-insulating mittens or gloves when handling
a soldering iron? YOU SHOULD...IT IS 'GOOD FOR YOU.' Soldering
irons operate at tip temperatures high enough to inflict very
serior BURNS on the skin.

Do you inhale fumes from rosin flux while soldering? DON'T DO IT,
WEAR SELF-CONTAINED BREATHING APPARATUS! 'IT'S GOOD FOR YOU!'
Who knows what other FUMES are given off when soldering? Has
anyone done 'controlled tests of human dangers' from that?
Better hurry up to catch up with the DO-GOODERS!

Do you wear PROTECTIVE GLASSES when drilling wood or metal?
BETTER DO THAT! 'IT IS GOOD FOR YOU!' Who knows when you
get clumsy and don't hold the work tight and pieces fly off,
possibly impacting your precious EYES! Ya gots to have
PROTECTIVE EYEGLASSES!

Do you wear self-contained breathing appartus when spraying
paint? BETTER DO IT, 'IT IS GOOD FOR YOU!' All that toluene
and acetone and other DANGEROUS hydrocarbon compounds are set
free and will CONTAMINATE YOU AND THE ENTIRE PLANET!

Do you wear protective gloves when working with sheet metal
or any substance that can make a sharp edge that would PIERCE
YOUR SKIN? BETTER DO IT, IT IS GOOD FOR YOU! We can't have
you in GREAT DANGER from open wound infections!

Oh, oh, oh, THE WORLD IS FULL OF *DANGERS*! Protect yourself
from EVERYTHING that might, possibly, maybe damage your
precious body...or neighborhood...or city...or the planet.
DON'T DO ANYTHING. Just sit at your computer (with non-CRT
flat-screen display so you won't be in danger of X-RAYS from
those old CRT displays) and make Do-Gooder noises...especially
to those of us who spent a lifetime IN the electronics
industry.

Keep your 'Southgate Radio' company SAFE.

AF6AY

On Jun 7, 12:41*pm, Erich wrote:
One of the biggest problems I have with the lead free solder is that
over time it tends to grow tin whiskers. *Then it shorts out to adjacent
pads. *Current reliability requirements are to encapsulate all the
solder joints with epoxy. *This is painful and really causes problems
with rework.

No-lead; a feel-good solution to a non-problem.

Erich N6FD

http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/ (check out the photo gallery)

Wonder if the EU is going to pick up the eventual world-wide tab?

On Jun 7, 12:41�pm, Erich wrote:
One of the biggest problems I have with the lead free solder is that
over time it tends to grow tin whiskers. �Then it shorts out to adjacent
pads. �Current reliability requirements are to encapsulate all the
solder joints with epoxy. �This is painful and really causes problems
with rework.

Perhaps the idea is to eliminate rework and repair. Remember the
slogan "Ending is better than mending"?

No-lead; a feel-good solution to a non-problem.

I disagree!

I think it's the wrong solution to real problem.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Jun 7, 10:25�am, Jim Adney wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:56:07 -0700 (PDT) wrote:

How ironic is it that a major rework of a car's electronics will be
done to eliminate a few ounces of lead-tin solder, while the car's
battery contains many pounds of lead and acid?

I think you'll find that auto batteries are already VERY commonly
recycled, for exactly this reason.

Here in Pennsylvania, there's a "core charge" ($7? might have gone up)
if you try to buy a new car battery without an old one to trade in.
Besides being an incentive to recycle, it gives the auto-parts folks a
chance to put the old battery alongside the new one and make sure it's
the right size.

But the main point is this: Not all car batteries are recycled; some
do get into the waste stream. The same is true of other lead-acid and
ni-cad cells (cadmium is a heavy metal, too). Yet those things are not
outlawed. Instead, recycling and education programs are set up to keep
the lead, cadmium and acid out of the environment.

IMHO, such recycling for discarded electronics is a better solution
than banning lead-tin solder.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Jun 7, 4:51�pm, Mike Silva wrote:
On Jun 7, 12:41�pm, Erich wrote:

One of the biggest problems I have with the lead free solder is that
over time it tends to grow tin whiskers. �Then it shorts out to adjacent
pads. �Current reliability requirements are to encapsulate all the
solder joints with epoxy. �This is painful and really causes problems
with rework.

No-lead; a feel-good solution to a non-problem.

Erich N6FD

http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/(check out the photo gallery)

Wonder if the EU is going to pick up the eventual world-wide tab?

EU doesn't have to. RoHS (Reduction of Hazardous Substances) is an
in-country (European) specification that covers a LOT of different
substances. In one way RoHS is no different than the FCC
specification
that forbids MARKETING of receivers than can listen to cellular
telephone
frequencies...or the way older specification that stated TV sets sold
in the
USA must be capable of tuning in UHF TV channels...or the FCC
specification about linear RF amplifiers that can cover CB that aren't
allowed to be sold IN the USA.

RoHS is NOT an international specification. Manufacturers who sell
ONLY in the USA and don't care to enter the European (or RoHS-member)
markets aren't obliged in any way to obey RoHS standards. USA DoD
contracts on electronics can use lead-bearing solders, no problem.

NASA used CONFORMAL COATINGS or encapsulation on spacecraft
electronics in the beginning of the 1960s. NOT for any sort of 'tin-
whisker'
problems but for the fact that microgravity environments all all kinds
of small
or large junk to float around freely. It MIGHT be that some teeny
conductive
junk could short out traces on a PCB in space. Hardly likely in an
earth
environment with gravity all the time. Those same conformal coatings
were
later found to inhibit the growth of CERTAIN metal whiskers (tin is
not the only
one). Except for one potting compound allowed back in the 1960s, such
coatings and pottings were not epoxoids. The others were closer to
offshoots
of silicone elastomers and could be reworked.

There are all sorts of coating compounds available now. Emerson &
Cuming
built their long-running business of providing all kinds of polymer
compounds for the electronics industry. Those aren't cheap. No such
products are.

"Tin whisker" problems take a LONG time to show up. Usually it takes
a half year for the first such whiskers' start to become visible under
100x magnification. Repeated heating-cooling tends to hasten such
growth (of a
sort of crystaline form of tin) but such studies aren't quite complete
yet. But,
once started, the growth can accelerate. Even that is not speedy.

Thanks to MARKETING folks, there has been a lot of hysteria about this
"tin-
whisker" thing generated and picked up by all who have no experience
in such
things. A conformal coating will inhibt whisker growth. Even an
ordinary varnish used on wood surfaces. I'd avoid the green 'solder-
mask' stuff found
on PCB assemblies which are used to prevent excess solder during wave-
and reflow-soldering; it is tough stuff and much harder to remove if
put on
soldered pads/lands via additional coatings. I'd avoid lacquers
because they
leave a lot of stubborn ash behind if one MUST 'rework'
something...despite
their easy application and quick drying time and nice appearance after
application.

73, Len AF6AY

Whether it's viable depends on the rules. Here in the USA, a number of
states require a deposit (usually five cents) on beverage containers.
That deposit is typically far more than the intrinsic worth of the
metal, glass or plasti in the container, but that's not the point.
Instead, the deposit makes it worthwhile to collect and recycle the
containers, keeping them out of the trash stream and reducing litter.
Why couldn't there be such a deposit on electronics?
=======================================
In the Netherlands and other EU countries all electrical goods are
subjected to a 'prepaid removal fee' This variable fee is payable on
purchase ,be it an electric toothbrush ,a microwave oven or a TV set
,computer ,printer etc. It means that upon disposal the unit can be
taken to any retailer who is obliged to dispose of the equipment in a
responsible way(recycle yard)

Also spent alkaline,Nicad,NiMH ,any type of battery can be put in a
container at any retailer including supermarkets who are selling these
batteries , even if you do not intend to buy batteries at that time.

In the UK they are lagging behind with these measures.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

On Jun 8, 4:37�pm, Highland Ham
wrote:
(N2EY wrote):
Here in the USA, a number of states require a
deposit (usually five cents) on beverage containers.
That deposit is typically far more than the intrinsic worth of the
metal, glass or plasti in the container, but that's not the point.
Instead, the deposit makes it worthwhile to collect and
recycle the
containers, keeping them out of the trash stream and
reducing litter.
Why couldn't there be such a deposit on electronics?

=======================================
In the Netherlands and other EU countries all electrical goods are
subjected to a 'prepaid removal fee' �This variable fee is
payable on
purchase ,be it an electric toothbrush ,a microwave oven
or a TV set
,computer ,printer etc. It means that upon disposal the unit
can be
taken to any retailer who is obliged to dispose of the
equipment in a
responsible way(recycle yard)

Also spent alkaline,Nicad,NiMH ,any type of battery
can be put in a
container at any retailer including supermarkets who
are selling these
batteries , even if you do not intend to buy batteries at that time.

That's close to what I'm talking about. Seems to me that's a better
solution than demanding no lead-containing solder.

In the UK they are lagging behind with these measures.

Here in the USA, some retailers (Home Depot, Staples, Pep Boys)
have done similar things for batteries, motor oil, printer cartridges,
compact flourescent lamps, cell phones and some other items.
In some cases
it's a government regulation, in others it's a way to get you into
the store, and in others it's just a desire to do the right thing
rather
than being forced to do it.

The idea of building in the disposal cost up-front is a good one,
IMHO, because it reveals the true cost of the item, not just the
immediate cost.

73 de Jim, N2EY