Frank Dinger wrote:
Mr. Berkman says his group has already had discussions about bundling its
services, and plans to offer Internet phone service and either video on
demand or videogames by the third quarter of this year. He adds that in

many

places that theoretically can get high-speed access the quality is poor.
Cinergy and Current, which tested their offering on 100 homes in the
Cincinnati area, say they will target areas where broadband connections

are

spotty and hope to sign up 20% of homes they pass.

==============================
Wonder if there are any radio amateurs (hams) in the Cincinetti area where
the system was 'tested'
And if so ,whether they have reported any interference resulting from BPL. I
am sure ARRL will be happy to hear from them.

Let's wait and see.

Here in the UK ,it has gone quiet re PLT = Power Line Transmission (BPL).
In rural areas where telephone exhanges have not as yet been prepared for
ADSL ,people can register their interest in ADSL on the Web.
As soon as a trigger level ,set by British Telecom, has been reached ,
broadband facilities will be installed.
In my telephone area (covering a maximum of 1000 phone connections) the
trigger level is 150 ,whereas to date only 51 have
registered...................So I might enjoy broadband comms during 'after
life' ).
However the 'absence of PLT ' (a blessing) will most definitely make me
stick with ham radio.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH



OK Hams in Cincy. When you can't hear anything because the band is full
of BPL crap fire up your linears and rotate your beams toward the noise,
then call CQ all night. The BPL people will find their internet not
working because of the 'QRM' and there ain't a thing they can legally do
about it! When the customers demand their money back maybe the power
companies will call the experiment a failure.

OK Hams in Cincy. When you can't hear anything because the band is full
of BPL crap fire up your linears and rotate your beams toward the noise,
then call CQ all night. The BPL people will find their internet not
working because of the 'QRM' and there ain't a thing they can legally do
about it!

Yeah, but...

Remember, this is a country where the majority
rules, and laws can be changed. Hams are a
minority.

This is a very serious issue, and could spell the
end of our hobby. I sincerely hope not.

73, John - K6QQ

OK Hams in Cincy. When you can't hear anything because the band is full
of BPL crap fire up your linears and rotate your beams toward the noise,
then call CQ all night. The BPL people will find their internet not
working because of the 'QRM' and there ain't a thing they can legally do
about it!

Yeah, but...

Remember, this is a country where the majority
rules, and laws can be changed. Hams are a
minority.

This is a very serious issue, and could spell the
end of our hobby. I sincerely hope not.

73, John - K6QQ

OK Hams in Cincy. When you can't hear anything because the band is full
of BPL crap fire up your linears and rotate your beams toward the noise,
then call CQ all night. The BPL people will find their internet not
working because of the 'QRM' and there ain't a thing they can legally do
about it! When the customers demand their money back maybe the power
companies will call the experiment a failure.

My reaction (below) to the "QRM solution" (quoted above) was previously
posted on QRZ.net.

This is not a suggested course of action.


The power companies know all about the Part 15 rules. They will never
attempt to prosecute you or harass you via the FCC or Federal Courts.

You WILL find yourself in a LOCAL court room, before a LOCAL judge, and
a LOCAL District Attorney. You will be prosecuted as a “Public
Nuisance" under the same laws used to protect the public from dogs
running at large, kids who squeel their car tires, and people who leave
piles of garbage laying about.

The judge will likely issue a "cease and desist" order. If you ignore
it, and fire up your rig anew, the LOCAL sherriff will be ordered to
take possesion of your equipment and probably take down your antennas
(at your expence), as well.

You can appeal these actions ... and you will very likely win your case
on appeal. But, only after two or more years of gut wrenching
legalistics and an expenditure reaching the $100,000 range ... probably
several hunderd thousand dollars. Each and every ham like you, will
likely have to fight this same battle, over, and over again ... for
himself, by himself, in each and every jurisdiction. The ARRL doesn't
have the money or staff to help you.

If you think its not possible, ask the guys from New York, who were
prosecuted under the "scanner laws", if their rigs have been returned to
them, yet. They won their cases.

You're going to get BPL, in one form or another. The reasons have
nothing to do with an advance in technology. They have everything to do
with MONEY and POLITICS. You're going to get BPL. And, quite frankly,
you deserve it.

The FCC, The US Congress, The US Court systems ... are the very best
that MONEY can buy. The Commissioners of the FCC are NOT technologists
.... they are bookkeepres, accountants, would-be/failed politicians (or,
their sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters), and lobbyists. They are
NOT your "friends-in-high-places". They've been bought and paid for.
They "take the king's coin, and do his bidding".

Why? You, Amateur Radio as a group, are mostly old, mostly fat, selfish,
lazy ....and, you don't VOTE regularly and knowledgeably. When you do
vote, it is on issues having little to do with your own self interest,
your community, or your hobby.

At present, the FCC records some 900,000 licences for the Amateur
service. Of these, at least 15% are dead people. That leaves about
800,000 "living" hams. Of those, less than 20 % vote regularly. So,
you have a total influence with the US Congress of aproximately 160,000
votes .... scattered across 450 odd districts. Not much for political
"Clout".

You are selfish. Your promote your hobby as an exclusionary fraternity.
You are NOT, at this date, an inclusive, accepting, welcoming union
of like minded and interested individuals. Rather, you link your hobby
to additional exclusionary protocols ... religious belief (I throw
"morse" and Christianity in the same pot), sexual orientation (or just
gender), language, race, and social origin. If you doubt me, you
haven't been listening to much of the chatter on 20 and 75 meter SSB.
On my local 2 meter repeater, there are "extras" who won't even chat
with a "no-code tech" or "queer CB'er". Heaven help you if they hear
you practicing your Spanish with someone from Cuba.

What the hobby needs to force a repeal/reconsideration of BPL is an
infussion of about 10 million kids each of whom has 2 parents and 4
grand-parents ... all of voting age. 60 million votes ... thats CLOUT!

But, given the history of such things as 'Incentive Licensing", the
"Save Eleven" fiasco, and the religious "Rite of Morse", there is little
chance of seeing any such infusion before the entire hobby is history.

You are going to get BPL!

In short, don't invest in a new Icom rig, or that fantastiic Orion.
Instead, buy fishing gear ... find a new hobby, 'cuz this one is all but
dead.

Harv Nelson, AI9NL
Washburn, WI

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:16:59 -0600, Harv nelson stood up and said:

The power companies know all about the Part 15 rules. They will never
attempt to prosecute you or harass you via the FCC or Federal Courts.

You WILL find yourself in a LOCAL court room, before a LOCAL judge, and
a LOCAL District Attorney. You will be prosecuted as a ?Public
Nuisance" under the same laws used to protect the public from dogs
running at large, kids who squeel their car tires, and people who leave
piles of garbage laying about.

The judge will likely issue a "cease and desist" order. If you ignore
it, and fire up your rig anew, the LOCAL sherriff will be ordered to
take possesion of your equipment and probably take down your antennas
(at your expence), as well.

You can appeal these actions ... and you will very likely win your case
on appeal. But, only after two or more years of gut wrenching
legalistics and an expenditure reaching the $100,000 range ... probably
several hunderd thousand dollars. Each and every ham like you, will
likely have to fight this same battle, over, and over again ... for
himself, by himself, in each and every jurisdiction. The ARRL doesn't
have the money or staff to help you.

If you think its not possible, ask the guys from New York, who were
prosecuted under the "scanner laws", if their rigs have been returned to
them, yet. They won their cases.

You're going to get BPL, in one form or another. The reasons have
nothing to do with an advance in technology. They have everything to do
with MONEY and POLITICS. You're going to get BPL. And, quite frankly,
you deserve it.

The FCC, The US Congress, The US Court systems ... are the very best
that MONEY can buy. The Commissioners of the FCC are NOT technologists
... they are bookkeepres, accountants, would-be/failed politicians (or,
their sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters), and lobbyists. They are
NOT your "friends-in-high-places". They've been bought and paid for.
They "take the king's coin, and do his bidding".

Why? You, Amateur Radio as a group, are mostly old, mostly fat, selfish,
lazy ....and, you don't VOTE regularly and knowledgeably. When you do
vote, it is on issues having little to do with your own self interest,
your community, or your hobby.

At present, the FCC records some 900,000 licences for the Amateur
service. Of these, at least 15% are dead people. That leaves about
800,000 "living" hams. Of those, less than 20 % vote regularly. So,
you have a total influence with the US Congress of aproximately 160,000
votes .... scattered across 450 odd districts. Not much for political
"Clout".

You are selfish. Your promote your hobby as an exclusionary fraternity.
You are NOT, at this date, an inclusive, accepting, welcoming union
of like minded and interested individuals. Rather, you link your hobby
to additional exclusionary protocols ... religious belief (I throw
"morse" and Christianity in the same pot), sexual orientation (or just
gender), language, race, and social origin. If you doubt me, you
haven't been listening to much of the chatter on 20 and 75 meter SSB.
On my local 2 meter repeater, there are "extras" who won't even chat
with a "no-code tech" or "queer CB'er". Heaven help you if they hear
you practicing your Spanish with someone from Cuba.

What the hobby needs to force a repeal/reconsideration of BPL is an
infussion of about 10 million kids each of whom has 2 parents and 4
grand-parents ... all of voting age. 60 million votes ... thats CLOUT!

But, given the history of such things as 'Incentive Licensing", the
"Save Eleven" fiasco, and the religious "Rite of Morse", there is little
chance of seeing any such infusion before the entire hobby is history.

You are going to get BPL!

In short, don't invest in a new Icom rig, or that fantastiic Orion.
Instead, buy fishing gear ... find a new hobby, 'cuz this one is all but
dead.

Harv Nelson, AI9NL
Washburn, WI

Hammer, meet the head of nail. Nice job.

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:16:59 -0600, Harv nelson stood up and said:

The power companies know all about the Part 15 rules. They will never
attempt to prosecute you or harass you via the FCC or Federal Courts.

You WILL find yourself in a LOCAL court room, before a LOCAL judge, and
a LOCAL District Attorney. You will be prosecuted as a ?Public
Nuisance" under the same laws used to protect the public from dogs
running at large, kids who squeel their car tires, and people who leave
piles of garbage laying about.

The judge will likely issue a "cease and desist" order. If you ignore
it, and fire up your rig anew, the LOCAL sherriff will be ordered to
take possesion of your equipment and probably take down your antennas
(at your expence), as well.

You can appeal these actions ... and you will very likely win your case
on appeal. But, only after two or more years of gut wrenching
legalistics and an expenditure reaching the $100,000 range ... probably
several hunderd thousand dollars. Each and every ham like you, will
likely have to fight this same battle, over, and over again ... for
himself, by himself, in each and every jurisdiction. The ARRL doesn't
have the money or staff to help you.

If you think its not possible, ask the guys from New York, who were
prosecuted under the "scanner laws", if their rigs have been returned to
them, yet. They won their cases.

You're going to get BPL, in one form or another. The reasons have
nothing to do with an advance in technology. They have everything to do
with MONEY and POLITICS. You're going to get BPL. And, quite frankly,
you deserve it.

The FCC, The US Congress, The US Court systems ... are the very best
that MONEY can buy. The Commissioners of the FCC are NOT technologists
... they are bookkeepres, accountants, would-be/failed politicians (or,
their sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters), and lobbyists. They are
NOT your "friends-in-high-places". They've been bought and paid for.
They "take the king's coin, and do his bidding".

Why? You, Amateur Radio as a group, are mostly old, mostly fat, selfish,
lazy ....and, you don't VOTE regularly and knowledgeably. When you do
vote, it is on issues having little to do with your own self interest,
your community, or your hobby.

At present, the FCC records some 900,000 licences for the Amateur
service. Of these, at least 15% are dead people. That leaves about
800,000 "living" hams. Of those, less than 20 % vote regularly. So,
you have a total influence with the US Congress of aproximately 160,000
votes .... scattered across 450 odd districts. Not much for political
"Clout".

You are selfish. Your promote your hobby as an exclusionary fraternity.
You are NOT, at this date, an inclusive, accepting, welcoming union
of like minded and interested individuals. Rather, you link your hobby
to additional exclusionary protocols ... religious belief (I throw
"morse" and Christianity in the same pot), sexual orientation (or just
gender), language, race, and social origin. If you doubt me, you
haven't been listening to much of the chatter on 20 and 75 meter SSB.
On my local 2 meter repeater, there are "extras" who won't even chat
with a "no-code tech" or "queer CB'er". Heaven help you if they hear
you practicing your Spanish with someone from Cuba.

What the hobby needs to force a repeal/reconsideration of BPL is an
infussion of about 10 million kids each of whom has 2 parents and 4
grand-parents ... all of voting age. 60 million votes ... thats CLOUT!

But, given the history of such things as 'Incentive Licensing", the
"Save Eleven" fiasco, and the religious "Rite of Morse", there is little
chance of seeing any such infusion before the entire hobby is history.

You are going to get BPL!

In short, don't invest in a new Icom rig, or that fantastiic Orion.
Instead, buy fishing gear ... find a new hobby, 'cuz this one is all but
dead.

Harv Nelson, AI9NL
Washburn, WI

Hammer, meet the head of nail. Nice job.

Harv nelson wrote:

OK Hams in Cincy. When you can't hear anything because the band is
full of BPL crap fire up your linears and rotate your beams toward the
noise, then call CQ all night. The BPL people will find their
internet not working because of the 'QRM' and there ain't a thing they
can legally do about it! When the customers demand their money back
maybe the power companies will call the experiment a failure.


My reaction (below) to the "QRM solution" (quoted above) was previously
posted on QRZ.net.

This is not a suggested course of action.

The FCC regulations do require us to use the minimum amount of power to
get the job done. Is trying to overcome QRN a good reason to switch to
high power? I think the FCC regs would support that. I'm sure that if
we just operate as we normally do, perhaps switch to high power if
necessary (but still remain within the law as far as all requirements
apply) we are not anymore a Public Nuisance than we ever were. It's
like the guy who moved next door to an airport and then complains about
the noise. He KNEW the airport was there. Same here, the BPL providers
KNEW about part 15, they just have to live with it.

The power companies know all about the Part 15 rules. They will never
attempt to prosecute you or harass you via the FCC or Federal Courts.

You WILL find yourself in a LOCAL court room, before a LOCAL judge, and
a LOCAL District Attorney. You will be prosecuted as a “Public
Nuisance" under the same laws used to protect the public from dogs
running at large, kids who squeel their car tires, and people who leave
piles of garbage laying about.

The judge will likely issue a "cease and desist" order. If you ignore
it, and fire up your rig anew, the LOCAL sherriff will be ordered to
take possesion of your equipment and probably take down your antennas
(at your expence), as well.

A good attorney would point out that federal law trumps local law.
There is probably enough prior cases dealing with TVI to act as such a
defense.

You can appeal these actions ... and you will very likely win your case
on appeal. But, only after two or more years of gut wrenching
legalistics and an expenditure reaching the $100,000 range ... probably
several hunderd thousand dollars. Each and every ham like you, will
likely have to fight this same battle, over, and over again ... for
himself, by himself, in each and every jurisdiction. The ARRL doesn't
have the money or staff to help you.

If you think its not possible, ask the guys from New York, who were
prosecuted under the "scanner laws", if their rigs have been returned to
them, yet. They won their cases.

As for the rest of your comments, I suppose you have made up your mind
and have burned your license, framed the ashes, and sold your radio gear
to the CB'er next door. I think there IS hope for the hobby, attitudes
about Morse are changing, the old farts in the ARRL being replaced by
younger blood. I personally think SOME way of keeping CW from totally
disapearing is needed, just to keep the diversity alive. It IS time for
a CW free HF license with mainline privilages. Keep the Extra class cw
bands exclusive, we can afford setting aside 25khz on several bands for
this. Keep some segments of all bands reserved for CW and other 'narrow
bandwith' modes, according to their usage. The ARRL's new band plans at
least sound like a start toward making ham radio more accessable to
everyone. BUT some sort of work IS needed to get a license, or we will
be left with nothing but the kaos that CB became. (If you don't put
some effort into getting yourself license, will you have enough pride in
it to respect it?)

As for BPL, I think in a decade it will be nothing but a memory, killed
off by better technology. Some of the power companies that are getting
into the broadband business are doing so by opening up their own
networks (which are fiber and rf based) to their end customers. The
term BPL in this case refers NOT to the method of delivery, but to the
provider. The power companies use a network to control power loading
transfering data between distribution points.

You're going to get BPL, in one form or another. The reasons have
nothing to do with an advance in technology. They have everything to do
with MONEY and POLITICS. You're going to get BPL. And, quite frankly,
you deserve it.

The FCC, The US Congress, The US Court systems ... are the very best
that MONEY can buy. The Commissioners of the FCC are NOT technologists
... they are bookkeepres, accountants, would-be/failed politicians (or,
their sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters), and lobbyists. They are
NOT your "friends-in-high-places". They've been bought and paid for.
They "take the king's coin, and do his bidding".

Why? You, Amateur Radio as a group, are mostly old, mostly fat, selfish,
lazy ....and, you don't VOTE regularly and knowledgeably. When you do
vote, it is on issues having little to do with your own self interest,
your community, or your hobby.

At present, the FCC records some 900,000 licences for the Amateur
service. Of these, at least 15% are dead people. That leaves about
800,000 "living" hams. Of those, less than 20 % vote regularly. So,
you have a total influence with the US Congress of aproximately 160,000
votes .... scattered across 450 odd districts. Not much for political
"Clout".

You are selfish. Your promote your hobby as an exclusionary fraternity.
You are NOT, at this date, an inclusive, accepting, welcoming union of
like minded and interested individuals. Rather, you link your hobby to
additional exclusionary protocols ... religious belief (I throw "morse"
and Christianity in the same pot), sexual orientation (or just gender),
language, race, and social origin. If you doubt me, you haven't been
listening to much of the chatter on 20 and 75 meter SSB. On my local 2
meter repeater, there are "extras" who won't even chat with a "no-code
tech" or "queer CB'er". Heaven help you if they hear you practicing
your Spanish with someone from Cuba.

What the hobby needs to force a repeal/reconsideration of BPL is an
infussion of about 10 million kids each of whom has 2 parents and 4
grand-parents ... all of voting age. 60 million votes ... thats CLOUT!

But, given the history of such things as 'Incentive Licensing", the
"Save Eleven" fiasco, and the religious "Rite of Morse", there is little
chance of seeing any such infusion before the entire hobby is history.

You are going to get BPL!

In short, don't invest in a new Icom rig, or that fantastiic Orion.
Instead, buy fishing gear ... find a new hobby, 'cuz this one is all but
dead.

Harv Nelson, AI9NL
Washburn, WI

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 19:15:02 +0000, Ken Scharf stood up and said:

As for the rest of your comments, I suppose you have made up your mind
and have burned your license, framed the ashes, and sold your radio gear
to the CB'er next door.

I think you missed the point of his post. It is an editorial on the
state of the hobby and I think it drives home the current attitudes many
(no all, of course) hams have towards the proposed changes the ARRL are
supporting. It's really human nature; many people are resistant to
change for variety of reasons and sometimes it takes a long, hard look
in the mirror to see how silly this resistance is. The point being, if
one insists on "living in the past", then their is no future. This
applies to everything, not just amateur radio.

And I don't think the original poster has burned his license. He's
probably doing more than you or I to save the hobby by shoving the
egocentrism that many hams exhibit right back in their face. And for
the record, I don't think the ARRL went far enough in their
recommendations. I believe their should only be two licenses: a
beginners with VHF/UHF access and limited HF access, and a "general"
license with full privileges and no CW required. Before you (or anybody
else) flame me for this, note that I do know CW. The only reason I
learned it was to get HF privileges. I maybe had 3 or 4 QSOs using CW
but it's not for me. I find other digital modes like PSK31 to be more
fun. But that's just me.

Arnold wrote:
On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 19:15:02 +0000, Ken Scharf stood up and said:

As for the rest of your comments, I suppose you have made up your mind
and have burned your license, framed the ashes, and sold your radio gear
to the CB'er next door.


I think you missed the point of his post. It is an editorial on the
state of the hobby and I think it drives home the current attitudes many
(no all, of course) hams have towards the proposed changes the ARRL are
supporting. It's really human nature; many people are resistant to
change for variety of reasons and sometimes it takes a long, hard look
in the mirror to see how silly this resistance is. The point being, if
one insists on "living in the past", then their is no future. This
applies to everything, not just amateur radio.

And I don't think the original poster has burned his license. He's
probably doing more than you or I to save the hobby by shoving the
egocentrism that many hams exhibit right back in their face. And for
the record, I don't think the ARRL went far enough in their
recommendations. I believe their should only be two licenses: a
beginners with VHF/UHF access and limited HF access, and a "general"
license with full privileges and no CW required. Before you (or anybody
else) flame me for this, note that I do know CW. The only reason I
learned it was to get HF privileges. I maybe had 3 or 4 QSOs using CW
but it's not for me. I find other digital modes like PSK31 to be more
fun. But that's just me.

I would almost agree with you on having 'only' two licenses. I still
like the idea of the 'EXTRA CLASS' license as a means of promoting self
improvment. It only offers a very small increase in privileges, several
small slivers of bandwidth allocated for CW (and perhaps keep the extras
phone slivers as well). But do combine the advanced and general class
band segments and open them to everyone without the need to know CW.
The CW band segments should still remain, but call them 'narrow
bandwidth' segments for use ONLY with modes requiring less than say
500hz bandwidth. This would include things like digital, PSK31, and of
course, CW (which could become a digital computer mode no longer
requiring any gray cells to perform the incoding and decoding!).
Re-evaluate how much of each band should be set aside for these narrow
bandwidth segments, perhaps.

There are many hams that love cw (and would use it even if it was NOT
required) for things like QRP backpacking (these itty bitty rigs are
quite popular, the kits sell like hotcakes). CW IS the ultimate weak
signal mode. I do say this with second hand knowledge though, like you
I havn't used CW much in years, but I wish could improve on that!
I got my Extra when they lowered the CW requirement to 5 wpm and only
the written test stood in my way to get from Advanced to Extra. (The
challenge of the written test was something I could handle, and it gave
me a chance to bone up on theory I hadn't looked at since college.)

In closing on that, I wouldn't push CW on anybody, but I would hate to
see it die out.

Arnold wrote:
On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 19:15:02 +0000, Ken Scharf stood up and said:

As for the rest of your comments, I suppose you have made up your mind
and have burned your license, framed the ashes, and sold your radio gear
to the CB'er next door.


I think you missed the point of his post. It is an editorial on the
state of the hobby and I think it drives home the current attitudes many
(no all, of course) hams have towards the proposed changes the ARRL are
supporting. It's really human nature; many people are resistant to
change for variety of reasons and sometimes it takes a long, hard look
in the mirror to see how silly this resistance is. The point being, if
one insists on "living in the past", then their is no future. This
applies to everything, not just amateur radio.

And I don't think the original poster has burned his license. He's
probably doing more than you or I to save the hobby by shoving the
egocentrism that many hams exhibit right back in their face. And for
the record, I don't think the ARRL went far enough in their
recommendations. I believe their should only be two licenses: a
beginners with VHF/UHF access and limited HF access, and a "general"
license with full privileges and no CW required. Before you (or anybody
else) flame me for this, note that I do know CW. The only reason I
learned it was to get HF privileges. I maybe had 3 or 4 QSOs using CW
but it's not for me. I find other digital modes like PSK31 to be more
fun. But that's just me.

I would almost agree with you on having 'only' two licenses. I still
like the idea of the 'EXTRA CLASS' license as a means of promoting self
improvment. It only offers a very small increase in privileges, several
small slivers of bandwidth allocated for CW (and perhaps keep the extras
phone slivers as well). But do combine the advanced and general class
band segments and open them to everyone without the need to know CW.
The CW band segments should still remain, but call them 'narrow
bandwidth' segments for use ONLY with modes requiring less than say
500hz bandwidth. This would include things like digital, PSK31, and of
course, CW (which could become a digital computer mode no longer
requiring any gray cells to perform the incoding and decoding!).
Re-evaluate how much of each band should be set aside for these narrow
bandwidth segments, perhaps.

There are many hams that love cw (and would use it even if it was NOT
required) for things like QRP backpacking (these itty bitty rigs are
quite popular, the kits sell like hotcakes). CW IS the ultimate weak
signal mode. I do say this with second hand knowledge though, like you
I havn't used CW much in years, but I wish could improve on that!
I got my Extra when they lowered the CW requirement to 5 wpm and only
the written test stood in my way to get from Advanced to Extra. (The
challenge of the written test was something I could handle, and it gave
me a chance to bone up on theory I hadn't looked at since college.)

In closing on that, I wouldn't push CW on anybody, but I would hate to
see it die out.