On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:00:57 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson
wrote in
:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:54:13 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 19:11:48 -0700) it happened "Watson A.Name -
\"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" wrote in
:


"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message
...
On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened
wrote in :
A guy in Florida quoted 48 years pay back time. I ran
the numbers for my home - over 40 years, and I pay 13
cents per kwh. A 2 kW system costs $15000. Assuming
an average of 8 hours per day of 2kW per hour, that
solar system would give me 16 kWh. I pay 16*.13 or
$2.08 for 16 kWh. Works out to 19+ years for payback,
if you don't count on mortgage payments for the system.
Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is
much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage.
You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from
the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there
still is a grid during and after WW3 that is.
JP

I don't blame you for being paranoid about WW3, if you're from Holland.
History has treated those countries poorly during the last WWs. But
then, who cares if there's a WW3? I'm more concerned about the next big
earthquake. Some scientists are predicting a big 6.something earthquake
in the Southern Calif. desert before Sept. I hope so, 'cause some of
these immigrants might consider going back to their point of
origination.
Yea, every place has it problems, here it is the water level, and dikes
-so flooding-.
Those imigrants are a workforce, illegal immigrants behave usually pretty
well to avoid being exposed.
I personally think they have equal rights as the native Americans who stole
the land from the Indiens (spelling?).
Zero rights? Or the right of the strongest.
Was it not Reagan who pardonned most of them in California?
Then they started paying taxes....
Was not California short of cash?
JP

FINALLY! I've figured out Jan's source of news and historical
information... comic books ;-)
Wrong again, as first hand experience working in California
I KNOW how it is.
I ALSO know what a jail full of illegal Mexicans looks like from the inside.
So you better stop joking, I probably know US better then you.
And no I am not a Mexican.
That was the south border, I can also tell you about the north border.
Now go and dream on, dream dream dream the US dream my friend.
JP

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:28:31 -0400) it happened KR Williams
wrote in t:

My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will
never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power
company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better
financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay-
back in my lifetime.
A guess it is, given that solar cell efficiancy will eventually reach 60 %
in my estimate, then yes, buy one like that in your next lifetime if you
believe in that stuff.
In the mean time there are thoso who use them now.
When the US gets a real oil problem, you can always get one at crisis price.
JP

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:28:31 -0400) it happened KR Williams
wrote in t:

My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will
never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power
company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better
financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay-
back in my lifetime.
A guess it is, given that solar cell efficiancy will eventually reach 60 %
in my estimate, then yes, buy one like that in your next lifetime if you
believe in that stuff.
In the mean time there are thoso who use them now.
When the US gets a real oil problem, you can always get one at crisis price.
JP

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I drove
through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of the
wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.

I believe the name of that farm is "San Gorgonio Pass" and has
about 3500 turbines. The "Altimont Pass" farm has another 3500
and an even larger one in "Tehachapi Pass" (5000). (there is a
common thread in these names ;-)

Altogether something like 1% of CA's electricity comes from wind.
That's impressive, though hardly scale able to 100%. The CA
mountain passes hardly indicate the viability of wind power in
the rest of the country/world.

--
Keith

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I drove
through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of the
wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.

I believe the name of that farm is "San Gorgonio Pass" and has
about 3500 turbines. The "Altimont Pass" farm has another 3500
and an even larger one in "Tehachapi Pass" (5000). (there is a
common thread in these names ;-)

Altogether something like 1% of CA's electricity comes from wind.
That's impressive, though hardly scale able to 100%. The CA
mountain passes hardly indicate the viability of wind power in
the rest of the country/world.

--
Keith

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:56:48 -0400, KR Williams wrote:

In article ,
says...
[snip]
Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I drove
through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of the
wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.

I haven't been able to determine if the stopped units were off-line
for repair, or simply off-line based on grid needs. I've *never* seen
anyone *working* on them, but I drive by there only once or twice a
year.

[snip]

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:56:48 -0400, KR Williams wrote:

In article ,
says...
[snip]
Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I drove
through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of the
wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.

I haven't been able to determine if the stopped units were off-line
for repair, or simply off-line based on grid needs. I've *never* seen
anyone *working* on them, but I drive by there only once or twice a
year.

[snip]

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:56:48 -0400, KR Williams wrote:

In article ,
says...
[snip]
Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I drove
through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of the
wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.

I haven't been able to determine if the stopped units were off-line
for repair, or simply off-line based on grid needs. I've *never* seen
anyone *working* on them, but I drive by there only once or twice a
year.

From my conversations with wind-energy proponents after seeing
the farm, they seem to be off-line for maintenance, and the
required maintenance wasn't deemed profitable. No subsidies for
maintenance, only development. This may have changed since the
generators have become cheaper, perhaps even profitable. ;-)

--
Keith

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:56:48 -0400, KR Williams wrote:

In article ,
says...
[snip]
Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I drove
through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of the
wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.

I haven't been able to determine if the stopped units were off-line
for repair, or simply off-line based on grid needs. I've *never* seen
anyone *working* on them, but I drive by there only once or twice a
year.

From my conversations with wind-energy proponents after seeing
the farm, they seem to be off-line for maintenance, and the
required maintenance wasn't deemed profitable. No subsidies for
maintenance, only development. This may have changed since the
generators have become cheaper, perhaps even profitable. ;-)

--
Keith

In article ,
says...
On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:28:31 -0400) it happened KR Williams
wrote in t:

My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will
never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power
company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better
financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay-
back in my lifetime.
A guess it is, given that solar cell efficiancy will eventually reach 60 %
in my estimate, then yes, buy one like that in your next lifetime if you
believe in that stuff.

Nope. That's why I'm not investing for the next lifetime. Only
fools without an ounce of economic sense do so.

In the mean time there are thoso who use them now.

Economic illiterates, yes. Ok, there are some who choose to live
off-grid for other reasons. I work with one. Fool (for choosing
to live off-grid), yes. Economic fool, no.

When the US gets a real oil problem, you can always get one at crisis price.

You're an economic illiterate too. Hasn't the concept of
competition reached that hell-hole yet? ...or are you really
that stupid?

--
Keith