On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 10:27:30 +0000, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:

On 18/11/2017 04:01, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/17/2017 7:14 PM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote:

Dickman & Schtukle: proof that Usenet distils down to the purest
******s.


Your stoopidity is showing again, Gareth.


You're the stooopid one for attributing to me the remarks made
by one of my stalking Nonces.



Schtoopid Schtuckle tells someone called Gareth their Stoopidity is
showing and you automatically assume he's talking to you?


Says it all, really.


Made for each other, you two.

On 11/18/2017 5:27 AM, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
On 18/11/2017 04:01, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/17/2017 7:14 PM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote:

Dickman & Schtukle: proof that Usenet distils down to the purest
******s.


Your stoopidity is showing again, Gareth.


You're the stooopid one for attributing to me the remarks made
by one of my stalking Nonces.

Sorry, Gareth. You can't hide your stoopidity.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 11/17/2017 11:20 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 11:00 PM:
On 11/17/2017 6:57 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM:
On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM:
On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM:
On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM:
On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM:
On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote:
Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM:
On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote:

For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use
for the
contacts,
for
I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact
on my
ersatz
Vibroplex
to be very noisy and scratchy?

I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but
it has
been a
habit
of never put off till
tomorrow what you can put off till the day after.

I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making
one's own
electronic
organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying
matreial
for
the
keyboards.






If a question's worth asking, Gareth...







I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts
from
old
relays.
I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I
was in my
teens,
back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird
mounting
arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts.
Bob W, WA9D

Why use a mechanical switch?Â* There are magnetic hall effect
switches
around.Â* Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a
magnet.
Are the
magnetic switches too sloppy?


Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays?

I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong
name, but
aren't
they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up?


In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not
be any
corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about
mercury wetting.

Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain
pitting.Â* The
point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens
when
contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating
connection
because of switch bounce).Â* Mercury doesn't have this problem
as it
is a
liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted".


Mercury also does not make a "clean" break.Â* It "puddles" as the
contacts
are pulled apart due to surface tension.Â* It leads to irregular
break
timing.Â* This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you
have in
regular
switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW.
Additionally a
magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed
relays are
good
for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key.

I haven't timed such switches.Â* What is the timing precision
requirement
for CW?Â* Does optical satisfy it?


Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break
of the
beam it should work.Â* The problem as i see it would be that clean
make/break; the beam will fade in and out.Â* Probably not as bad as
a reed
switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation.
That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean
make/break.Â* And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to
burnish
rather easily and thick enough to last for years.

So no numbers?Â* Let's try to make some.

According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is
sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard".Â* So we can use
55 WPM
as an upper limit for using a manual key.

Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms

Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms.Â* So
I'm not
sure what "clean" make/break means.Â* The bounce time for reed
switches is
about the same as other switches I found.


No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks.
Brass
contacts are virtually instantaneous.Â* However, reed switches
operate via a
magnetic field.Â* This field is not a simple make/break - it gets
stronger
and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass
contacts
are digital but the magnet field is analog.Â* The actual switching
does not
necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength.
Additionally,
switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the
release.
The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed.
Optical
is also analog and can have similar problems.

And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles
with reed
switches or optical?Â* If these methods are so good, why aren't they
in the
high-end paddles/keys?

Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to your
understanding of electronics.


It is.Â* That is the context in which they were brought up.Â* But I know
you'd
rather change the context than admit you are wrong.

There is nothing going on here except that you are mistaken about the
functioning of switches.Â* How about you address the issues rather than
diverting the discussion.


I'm not diverting the discussion. You just don't understand how
magnetic and optical sensors work. That is very obvious.


Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical switches in that
they don't vary the connection continuously.Â* They are still metallic
switches and make or break when the metals touch.Â* The fact that the
magnetic field varies continuously is no different from the pressure
from
the paddle varying the position of the mechanical switch contact
"continuously".Â* I found no information indicating significant
variations
in the action of reed switches.Â* The variation in pull-in and release
field strength gives a small amount of hysteresis which is desirable in
any switch.Â* It is not enough to distort the key times from one
character
to the next.


Reed switches are not - but the magnet field which triggers them are. And
there is a huge difference between the magnetic field and finger
pressure on
a paddle.Â* That's exactly why reed switches are not used on paddles.

"There is a huge difference"... but you can't say what that difference
is. The motion of the key paddle is analog which results in an analog
displacement of the mechanical switch until contact is made or in the
case of a reed switch, results in the analog change in field strength
until the threshold is reached where the switch pieces are pulled
together.Â* All analog until the switch pieces make contact which results
in a discrete output change.

The real difference is in the bounce time.Â* A mercury wetted reed switch
has no bounce time, contact is singular and certain.Â* A mechanical
switch has a variable resistance until the point of contact stops moving
and settles down.Â* That's the bounce time.


I did tell you the difference. But you called it off-topic. This is
not related to bounce time. But you can't get over that fact.


Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle and the
signal seen by the detector.Â* Once the signal passes through a threshold
detector with hysteresis the signal is purely digital.Â* The strong
suit of
optical is that it eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure.


The same is true for optical - except that optical can also be
affected by
ambient light, making the switch even less reliable.

Lol.Â* It is easy enough to exclude ambient light.


And how are you going to do that without restricting the motion of the
paddles? Oh, I know. You have this magical whatchamacallit that
creates a black hole around the sensor and doesn't let any light in,
while not restricting any motion.

Right.


I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they have much
less bounce time than other switches and the mercury wetted types have
virtually no bounce time.Â* In fact while looking for info on typical
bounce times one of the pages I found showed a rather elaborate
circuit to
debounce the two mechanical switches in a keyer.Â* If the switches
were so
instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit?


Once again it isn't the bounce that causes the problem.

Bounce is a problem that makes the timing of the switch closure
uncertain and must be eliminated.Â* Compensating for the uncertainly
can't be done.Â* So what is the problem in mechanical switches if not
bounce?Â* If a switch bounces for 5 or 10 ms, that is a significant
portion of time for a 22 ms dot.


THIS IS NOT RELATED TO BOUNCE! GET OVER IT!


Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how
switches
in general work and not just reed switches.Â* Try reading about
switches a
bit.Â* You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break
cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection.Â* Just use google or any
other
tool to find some info on this and read it.


Nope, my analysis is right on.Â* And it is exactly why reed and optical
switching is not used in keys and paddles.

You actually haven't analyzed anything.Â* You just keep repeating the
same unsupported conclusions ignoring the way mechanical switches operate.


I have, but you call it "off-topic". So if your ideas are so great, why
aren't there any high end manufacturers which have keys or paddles with
reed or optical switches? If they are as good as you say, I would
expect to see dozens of them on the market. Or maybe they know I'm
right and you're wrong.

Why don't you come up with your own paddles using them and market them?
If they're as good as you say, you should make a fortune.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/18/2017 10:50 AM:
On 11/17/2017 11:20 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 11:00 PM:
On 11/17/2017 6:57 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM:
On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM:
On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM:
On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM:
On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM:
On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote:
Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM:
On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote:

For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use
for the
contacts,
for
I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact
on my
ersatz
Vibroplex
to be very noisy and scratchy?

I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has
been a
habit
of never put off till
tomorrow what you can put off till the day after.

I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's
own
electronic
organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying
matreial
for
the
keyboards.






If a question's worth asking, Gareth...







I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from
old
relays.
I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was
in my
teens,
back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird
mounting
arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts.
Bob W, WA9D

Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect
switches
around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet.
Are the
magnetic switches too sloppy?


Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays?

I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but
aren't
they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up?


In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any
corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about
mercury wetting.

Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The
point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when
contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating
connection
because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this problem as it
is a
liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted".


Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles" as the
contacts
are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to irregular break
timing. This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in
regular
switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW.
Additionally a
magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are
good
for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key.

I haven't timed such switches. What is the timing precision
requirement
for CW? Does optical satisfy it?


Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the
beam it should work. The problem as i see it would be that clean
make/break; the beam will fade in and out. Probably not as bad as a
reed
switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation.
That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean
make/break. And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish
rather easily and thick enough to last for years.

So no numbers? Let's try to make some.

According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is
sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard". So we can use 55 WPM
as an upper limit for using a manual key.

Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms

Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms. So I'm not
sure what "clean" make/break means. The bounce time for reed switches is
about the same as other switches I found.


No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks. Brass
contacts are virtually instantaneous. However, reed switches operate
via a
magnetic field. This field is not a simple make/break - it gets stronger
and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass contacts
are digital but the magnet field is analog. The actual switching does not
necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength.
Additionally,
switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the release.
The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed.
Optical
is also analog and can have similar problems.

And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with
reed
switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the
high-end paddles/keys?

Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to your
understanding of electronics.


It is. That is the context in which they were brought up. But I know you'd
rather change the context than admit you are wrong.

There is nothing going on here except that you are mistaken about the
functioning of switches. How about you address the issues rather than
diverting the discussion.


I'm not diverting the discussion. You just don't understand how magnetic
and optical sensors work. That is very obvious.

Go back and read. I didn't say anything technical you said was off topic.
I was pointing out that what others do is not limited by you lack of
understanding.


Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical switches in that
they don't vary the connection continuously. They are still metallic
switches and make or break when the metals touch. The fact that the
magnetic field varies continuously is no different from the pressure from
the paddle varying the position of the mechanical switch contact
"continuously". I found no information indicating significant variations
in the action of reed switches. The variation in pull-in and release
field strength gives a small amount of hysteresis which is desirable in
any switch. It is not enough to distort the key times from one character
to the next.


Reed switches are not - but the magnet field which triggers them are. And
there is a huge difference between the magnetic field and finger pressure on
a paddle. That's exactly why reed switches are not used on paddles.

"There is a huge difference"... but you can't say what that difference is.
The motion of the key paddle is analog which results in an analog
displacement of the mechanical switch until contact is made or in the case
of a reed switch, results in the analog change in field strength until the
threshold is reached where the switch pieces are pulled together. All
analog until the switch pieces make contact which results in a discrete
output change.

The real difference is in the bounce time. A mercury wetted reed switch
has no bounce time, contact is singular and certain. A mechanical switch
has a variable resistance until the point of contact stops moving and
settles down. That's the bounce time.


I did tell you the difference. But you called it off-topic. This is not
related to bounce time. But you can't get over that fact.

And you have failed to explain what *is* the problem. Rather than discuss
the issue you are diverting. Is there something you would like to
understand better?


Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle and the
signal seen by the detector. Once the signal passes through a threshold
detector with hysteresis the signal is purely digital. The strong suit of
optical is that it eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure.


The same is true for optical - except that optical can also be affected by
ambient light, making the switch even less reliable.

Lol. It is easy enough to exclude ambient light.


And how are you going to do that without restricting the motion of the
paddles? Oh, I know. You have this magical whatchamacallit that creates a
black hole around the sensor and doesn't let any light in, while not
restricting any motion.

Right.

The mechanical force can be conveyed without light entering. I guess you've
never used a camera with a mechanical shutter? This wouldn't require
anything nearly as complex as that, but you do need to understand the
principle before you can see how it might be done.


I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they have much
less bounce time than other switches and the mercury wetted types have
virtually no bounce time. In fact while looking for info on typical
bounce times one of the pages I found showed a rather elaborate circuit to
debounce the two mechanical switches in a keyer. If the switches were so
instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit?


Once again it isn't the bounce that causes the problem.

Bounce is a problem that makes the timing of the switch closure uncertain
and must be eliminated. Compensating for the uncertainly can't be done.
So what is the problem in mechanical switches if not bounce? If a switch
bounces for 5 or 10 ms, that is a significant portion of time for a 22 ms
dot.


THIS IS NOT RELATED TO BOUNCE! GET OVER IT!

Actually, it *is* related to bounce as a debounce circuit is required and
typical debounce circuits create delay with undefined delays. Instead of
yelling what the issue isn't, how about you explain what it *is*?


Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches
in general work and not just reed switches. Try reading about switches a
bit. You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break
cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection. Just use google or any other
tool to find some info on this and read it.


Nope, my analysis is right on. And it is exactly why reed and optical
switching is not used in keys and paddles.

You actually haven't analyzed anything. You just keep repeating the same
unsupported conclusions ignoring the way mechanical switches operate.


I have, but you call it "off-topic".

You have not explained anything and I said nothing technical you said was
off topic. You simply incorrectly stated that a magnetic switch is analog
(which actually makes no sense) because the field at the switch varies in a
continuous manner until the threshold is reached. You erroneously stated
the mechanical switch (which a reed is also) is "digital" because it is
either open or closed, totally ignoring the fact that a reed relay is uses
mechanical contacts as well. Both devices have an analog input, the range
of motion/force for the mechanical switch and the magnetic field for the
reed/Hall switch and a digital output, closed or not closed.


So if your ideas are so great, why
aren't there any high end manufacturers which have keys or paddles with reed
or optical switches? If they are as good as you say, I would expect to see
dozens of them on the market. Or maybe they know I'm right and you're wrong.

Have you done a survey of all keys on the market? I haven't. Maybe I'll
patent the idea if no one is doing it.


Why don't you come up with your own paddles using them and market them? If
they're as good as you say, you should make a fortune.

A fortune? I don't think there is that large a market for any ham product.
Who has made a "fortune" selling anything to hams?

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/18/2017 10:50 AM:
On 11/17/2017 11:20 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 11:00 PM:
On 11/17/2017 6:57 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM:
On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM:
On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM:
On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01 PM:
On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55 PM:
On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote:
Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM:
On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote:

For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do you use
for the
contacts,
for
I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the dot contact
on my
ersatz
Vibroplex
to be very noisy and scratchy?

I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before, but it has
been a
habit
of never put off till
tomorrow what you can put off till the day after.

I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of making one's
own
electronic
organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a suitable keying
matreial
for
the
keyboards.






If a question's worth asking, Gareth...







I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use contacts from
old
relays.
I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus when I was
in my
teens,
back in the 1950's. They have strange coil parameters, weird
mounting
arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts.
Bob W, WA9D

Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall effect
switches
around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated by a magnet.
Are the
magnetic switches too sloppy?


Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays?

I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the wrong name, but
aren't
they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building up?


In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should not be any
corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there, but don't know about
mercury wetting.

Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain pitting. The
point is a solid surface will wear from the arcing that happens when
contacts break connections (which also happens on initiating
connection
because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this problem as it
is a
liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted".


Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles" as the
contacts
are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to irregular break
timing. This isn't a problem at low switching speeds as you have in
regular
switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW.
Additionally a
magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem. Reed relays are
good
for things like security system contacts, but not a CW key.

I haven't timed such switches. What is the timing precision
requirement
for CW? Does optical satisfy it?


Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean make/break of the
beam it should work. The problem as i see it would be that clean
make/break; the beam will fade in and out. Probably not as bad as a
reed
switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation.
That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have a clean
make/break. And even if they get pitted they are soft enough to burnish
rather easily and thick enough to last for years.

So no numbers? Let's try to make some.

According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about 55 wpm) is
sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer keyboard". So we can use 55 WPM
as an upper limit for using a manual key.

Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms

Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit ms. So I'm not
sure what "clean" make/break means. The bounce time for reed switches is
about the same as other switches I found.


No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it makes/breaks. Brass
contacts are virtually instantaneous. However, reed switches operate
via a
magnetic field. This field is not a simple make/break - it gets stronger
and weaker depending on the distance from the magnet. IOW, brass contacts
are digital but the magnet field is analog. The actual switching does not
necessarily always occur at the same magnetic field strength.
Additionally,
switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than the release.
The two combined can result in varying width pulses at high speed.
Optical
is also analog and can have similar problems.

And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any paddles with
reed
switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't they in the
high-end paddles/keys?

Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to your
understanding of electronics.


It is. That is the context in which they were brought up. But I know you'd
rather change the context than admit you are wrong.

There is nothing going on here except that you are mistaken about the
functioning of switches. How about you address the issues rather than
diverting the discussion.


I'm not diverting the discussion. You just don't understand how magnetic
and optical sensors work. That is very obvious.

Go back and read. I didn't say anything technical you said was off topic.
I was pointing out that what others do is not limited by you lack of
understanding.


Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical switches in that
they don't vary the connection continuously. They are still metallic
switches and make or break when the metals touch. The fact that the
magnetic field varies continuously is no different from the pressure from
the paddle varying the position of the mechanical switch contact
"continuously". I found no information indicating significant variations
in the action of reed switches. The variation in pull-in and release
field strength gives a small amount of hysteresis which is desirable in
any switch. It is not enough to distort the key times from one character
to the next.


Reed switches are not - but the magnet field which triggers them are. And
there is a huge difference between the magnetic field and finger pressure on
a paddle. That's exactly why reed switches are not used on paddles.

"There is a huge difference"... but you can't say what that difference is.
The motion of the key paddle is analog which results in an analog
displacement of the mechanical switch until contact is made or in the case
of a reed switch, results in the analog change in field strength until the
threshold is reached where the switch pieces are pulled together. All
analog until the switch pieces make contact which results in a discrete
output change.

The real difference is in the bounce time. A mercury wetted reed switch
has no bounce time, contact is singular and certain. A mechanical switch
has a variable resistance until the point of contact stops moving and
settles down. That's the bounce time.


I did tell you the difference. But you called it off-topic. This is not
related to bounce time. But you can't get over that fact.

And you have failed to explain what *is* the problem. Rather than discuss
the issue you are diverting. Is there something you would like to
understand better?


Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle and the
signal seen by the detector. Once the signal passes through a threshold
detector with hysteresis the signal is purely digital. The strong suit of
optical is that it eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure.


The same is true for optical - except that optical can also be affected by
ambient light, making the switch even less reliable.

Lol. It is easy enough to exclude ambient light.


And how are you going to do that without restricting the motion of the
paddles? Oh, I know. You have this magical whatchamacallit that creates a
black hole around the sensor and doesn't let any light in, while not
restricting any motion.

Right.

The mechanical force can be conveyed without light entering. I guess you've
never used a camera with a mechanical shutter? This wouldn't require
anything nearly as complex as that, but you do need to understand the
principle before you can see how it might be done.


I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they have much
less bounce time than other switches and the mercury wetted types have
virtually no bounce time. In fact while looking for info on typical
bounce times one of the pages I found showed a rather elaborate circuit to
debounce the two mechanical switches in a keyer. If the switches were so
instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit?


Once again it isn't the bounce that causes the problem.

Bounce is a problem that makes the timing of the switch closure uncertain
and must be eliminated. Compensating for the uncertainly can't be done.
So what is the problem in mechanical switches if not bounce? If a switch
bounces for 5 or 10 ms, that is a significant portion of time for a 22 ms
dot.


THIS IS NOT RELATED TO BOUNCE! GET OVER IT!

Actually, it *is* related to bounce as a debounce circuit is required and
typical debounce circuits create delay with undefined delays. Instead of
yelling what the issue isn't, how about you explain what it *is*?


Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of how switches
in general work and not just reed switches. Try reading about switches a
bit. You will quickly find that metallic switches do not make or break
cleanly with an "instantaneous" connection. Just use google or any other
tool to find some info on this and read it.


Nope, my analysis is right on. And it is exactly why reed and optical
switching is not used in keys and paddles.

You actually haven't analyzed anything. You just keep repeating the same
unsupported conclusions ignoring the way mechanical switches operate.


I have, but you call it "off-topic".

You have not explained anything and I said nothing technical you said was
off topic. You simply incorrectly stated that a magnetic switch is analog
(which actually makes no sense) because the field at the switch varies in a
continuous manner until the threshold is reached. You erroneously stated
the mechanical switch (which a reed is also) is "digital" because it is
either open or closed, totally ignoring the fact that a reed relay is uses
mechanical contacts as well. Both devices have an analog input, the range
of motion/force for the mechanical switch and the magnetic field for the
reed/Hall switch and a digital output, closed or not closed.


So if your ideas are so great, why
aren't there any high end manufacturers which have keys or paddles with reed
or optical switches? If they are as good as you say, I would expect to see
dozens of them on the market. Or maybe they know I'm right and you're wrong.

Have you done a survey of all keys on the market? I haven't. Maybe I'll
patent the idea if no one is doing it.


Why don't you come up with your own paddles using them and market them? If
they're as good as you say, you should make a fortune.

A fortune? I don't think there is that large a market for any ham product.
Who has made a "fortune" selling anything to hams?


Gents, can you please **** off.

--
STC / M0TEY /
http://twitter.com/ukradioamateur

On 18 Nov 2017 18:00:54 GMT
Stephen Thomas Cole wrote:

rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/18/2017 10:50 AM:
On 11/17/2017 11:20 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 11:00 PM:
On 11/17/2017 6:57 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/17/2017 3:23 PM:
On 11/17/2017 3:37 AM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 10:34 PM:
On 11/16/2017 9:17 PM, rickman wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/16/2017 9:02 PM:
On 11/16/2017 7:28 PM, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 4:01
PM:
On 16/11/2017 20:04, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 11/16/2017 12:55
PM:
On 16/11/2017 17:07, rickman wrote:
Bob Wilson wrote on 11/7/2017 9:47 PM:
On 11/4/2017 5:42 AM, Gareth's Kitchen Komputer
wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:33:17 +0000, gareth wrote:

For those who make their own Morse Keys, what do
you use for the
contacts,
for
I have found the phosphor bronze pillar for the
dot contact on my
ersatz
Vibroplex
to be very noisy and scratchy?

I'm fairly sure that I asked this question before,
but it has been a
habit
of never put off till
tomorrow what you can put off till the day after.

I chose phosphor bronze because in the days of
making one's own
electronic
organs, phosphor bronze was suggested as a
suitable keying matreial
for
the
keyboards.






If a question's worth asking, Gareth...







I have not made lots of keys, but when I do I use
contacts from old
relays.
I still have some relays I bought as WWII surplus
when I was in my
teens,
back in the 1950's. They have strange coil
parameters, weird mounting
arrangements, etc., but nice little silver contacts.
Bob W, WA9D

Why use a mechanical switch? There are magnetic hall
effect switches
around. Or a mercury wetted switch can be operated
by a magnet. Are the
magnetic switches too sloppy?


Perhaps you confuse mercury wetted with reed relays?

I am thinking of reed relays, so I guess I used the
wrong name, but aren't
they wetted with mercury to prevent corrosion building
up?

In the closed atmosphere of the glass tube, there should
not be any corrosion, I think. ISTR some gas in there,
but don't know about mercury wetting.

Call it what you want, corrosion, oxidation, just plain
pitting. The point is a solid surface will wear from the
arcing that happens when contacts break connections
(which also happens on initiating connection
because of switch bounce). Mercury doesn't have this
problem as it is a
liquid and reforms the layer every time it is "pitted".


Mercury also does not make a "clean" break. It "puddles"
as the contacts
are pulled apart due to surface tension. It leads to
irregular break timing. This isn't a problem at low
switching speeds as you have in regular
switches and relays, but can be at higher rates as in CW.
Additionally a
magnetic field for switching accentuates this problem.
Reed relays are good
for things like security system contacts, but not a CW
key.

I haven't timed such switches. What is the timing precision
requirement
for CW? Does optical satisfy it?


Never tried optical but as long as you can get a clean
make/break of the beam it should work. The problem as i see
it would be that clean make/break; the beam will fade in and
out. Probably not as bad as a reed
switch - but for high speed CW you need clean operation.
That's why many keys use brass contacts or similar; the have
a clean make/break. And even if they get pitted they are
soft enough to burnish rather easily and thick enough to
last for years.

So no numbers? Let's try to make some.

According to Tom - W4BQF, "All high speed code (above about
55 wpm) is sent with a keyboard/keyer or a computer
keyboard". So we can use 55 WPM as an upper limit for using
a manual key.

Dot length = 1.2 seconds / WPM = 1.2 / 55 ~= 22 ms

Switch bounce time for many switches is some single digit
ms. So I'm not sure what "clean" make/break means. The
bounce time for reed switches is about the same as other
switches I found.

No, it is not bounce time - "clean" is how quickly it
makes/breaks. Brass contacts are virtually instantaneous.
However, reed switches operate via a
magnetic field. This field is not a simple make/break - it
gets stronger and weaker depending on the distance from the
magnet. IOW, brass contacts are digital but the magnet field
is analog. The actual switching does not necessarily always
occur at the same magnetic field strength. Additionally,
switching off to on requires a stronger magnetic field than
the release. The two combined can result in varying width
pulses at high speed. Optical
is also analog and can have similar problems.

And before you dismiss all of this - why don't you see any
paddles with reed
switches or optical? If these methods are so good, why aren't
they in the high-end paddles/keys?

Whether or not reed switches are used in keys is not related to
your understanding of electronics.


It is. That is the context in which they were brought up. But
I know you'd rather change the context than admit you are
wrong.

There is nothing going on here except that you are mistaken about
the functioning of switches. How about you address the issues
rather than diverting the discussion.


I'm not diverting the discussion. You just don't understand how
magnetic and optical sensors work. That is very obvious.

Go back and read. I didn't say anything technical you said was off
topic. I was pointing out that what others do is not limited by you
lack of understanding.


Reed switches are *not* analog any more than mechanical
switches in that they don't vary the connection continuously.
They are still metallic switches and make or break when the
metals touch. The fact that the magnetic field varies
continuously is no different from the pressure from the paddle
varying the position of the mechanical switch contact
"continuously". I found no information indicating significant
variations in the action of reed switches. The variation in
pull-in and release field strength gives a small amount of
hysteresis which is desirable in any switch. It is not enough
to distort the key times from one character to the next.

Reed switches are not - but the magnet field which triggers them
are. And there is a huge difference between the magnetic field
and finger pressure on a paddle. That's exactly why reed
switches are not used on paddles.

"There is a huge difference"... but you can't say what that
difference is. The motion of the key paddle is analog which
results in an analog displacement of the mechanical switch until
contact is made or in the case of a reed switch, results in the
analog change in field strength until the threshold is reached
where the switch pieces are pulled together. All analog until
the switch pieces make contact which results in a discrete output
change.

The real difference is in the bounce time. A mercury wetted reed
switch has no bounce time, contact is singular and certain. A
mechanical switch has a variable resistance until the point of
contact stops moving and settles down. That's the bounce time.


I did tell you the difference. But you called it off-topic. This
is not related to bounce time. But you can't get over that fact.

And you have failed to explain what *is* the problem. Rather than
discuss the issue you are diverting. Is there something you would
like to understand better?


Likewise optical is only optical in the movement of the paddle
and the signal seen by the detector. Once the signal passes
through a threshold detector with hysteresis the signal is
purely digital. The strong suit of optical is that it
eliminates all mechanical issues of wear and failure.

The same is true for optical - except that optical can also be
affected by ambient light, making the switch even less
reliable.

Lol. It is easy enough to exclude ambient light.


And how are you going to do that without restricting the motion of
the paddles? Oh, I know. You have this magical whatchamacallit
that creates a black hole around the sensor and doesn't let any
light in, while not restricting any motion.

Right.

The mechanical force can be conveyed without light entering. I
guess you've never used a camera with a mechanical shutter? This
wouldn't require anything nearly as complex as that, but you do
need to understand the principle before you can see how it might be
done.


I did a bit of reading about reed switches yesterday and they
have much less bounce time than other switches and the mercury
wetted types have virtually no bounce time. In fact while
looking for info on typical bounce times one of the pages I
found showed a rather elaborate circuit to debounce the two
mechanical switches in a keyer. If the switches were so
instantaneous, why would they need a debounce circuit?

Once again it isn't the bounce that causes the problem.

Bounce is a problem that makes the timing of the switch closure
uncertain and must be eliminated. Compensating for the
uncertainly can't be done. So what is the problem in mechanical
switches if not bounce? If a switch bounces for 5 or 10 ms, that
is a significant portion of time for a 22 ms dot.


THIS IS NOT RELATED TO BOUNCE! GET OVER IT!

Actually, it *is* related to bounce as a debounce circuit is
required and typical debounce circuits create delay with undefined
delays. Instead of yelling what the issue isn't, how about you
explain what it *is*?


Your analysis above shows a complete lack of understanding of
how switches in general work and not just reed switches. Try
reading about switches a bit. You will quickly find that
metallic switches do not make or break cleanly with an
"instantaneous" connection. Just use google or any other tool
to find some info on this and read it.

Nope, my analysis is right on. And it is exactly why reed and
optical switching is not used in keys and paddles.

You actually haven't analyzed anything. You just keep repeating
the same unsupported conclusions ignoring the way mechanical
switches operate.

I have, but you call it "off-topic".

You have not explained anything and I said nothing technical you
said was off topic. You simply incorrectly stated that a magnetic
switch is analog (which actually makes no sense) because the field
at the switch varies in a continuous manner until the threshold is
reached. You erroneously stated the mechanical switch (which a
reed is also) is "digital" because it is either open or closed,
totally ignoring the fact that a reed relay is uses mechanical
contacts as well. Both devices have an analog input, the range of
motion/force for the mechanical switch and the magnetic field for
the reed/Hall switch and a digital output, closed or not closed.


So if your ideas are so great, why
aren't there any high end manufacturers which have keys or paddles
with reed or optical switches? If they are as good as you say, I
would expect to see dozens of them on the market. Or maybe they
know I'm right and you're wrong.

Have you done a survey of all keys on the market? I haven't.
Maybe I'll patent the idea if no one is doing it.


Why don't you come up with your own paddles using them and market
them? If they're as good as you say, you should make a fortune.

A fortune? I don't think there is that large a market for any ham
product. Who has made a "fortune" selling anything to hams?


Gents, can you please **** off.



Vote Steve!

Why don't you come up with your own paddles using them and market them?
If
they're as good as you say, you should make a fortune.

A fortune? I don't think there is that large a market for any ham
product. Who has made a "fortune" selling anything to hams?

yes it is the class Bs and the hammy mens that have all the money.....

Gents, can you please **** off.

after you Cicel ....

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 12:44:38 -0500, rickman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote on 11/18/2017 10:50 AM:
On 11/17/2017 11:20 PM, rickman wrote:

So if your ideas are so great, why
aren't there any high end manufacturers which have keys or paddles with reed
or optical switches? If they are as good as you say, I would expect to see
dozens of them on the market. Or maybe they know I'm right and you're wrong.

Have you done a survey of all keys on the market? I haven't. Maybe I'll
patent the idea if no one is doing it.


This guy here sells optical keys.

http://www.morseexpress.com/ghd/

Brian GM4DIJ

On 18/11/2017 18:17, Jim Jam ... wrote:

Gents, can you please **** off.

after you Cicel ....

Sounds like the PP is suffering from mental deterioration, according to
Reay Diagnostics.

I expect he'll be along shortly to tut-tut - unless the PP is one of the
unusual suspects, in which case he'll sit on his hands.


--
Spike

"Once you see the RSGB logo you know that you are on the right track" -
but to what?
Publish RSGBTech's definitions of 'genuine', 'interest', 'known',
'trouble', and 'maker',
as well as the contents of the vetting policy and its supporting database.