On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:48:00 GMT, (Don
Pearce) wrote:

Aww c'mon - if you multiply a positive voltage by a positive current
you get positive power. If you multiply negative voltage by negative
current you get positive power.

Sorry, Don, you obviously haven't thought this through. Since *all*
their current is returned, I cannot have used *any* of it. Whatever
the voltage might be, multiplying it by zero Amps still gives zero
power!

Anyway - are you cleaning and refurbishing those amps before you give
them back?

Why should I? That's *their* job. I pay enough!

They wear out, you know.

You mean they like lose their charge after a while? That would make
sense as I've found as years have gone by, I've had to turn the
heating up more and more. The thieving *******s!


--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
wrote:


Sorry, Don, you obviously haven't thought this through. Since *all*
their current is returned, I cannot have used *any* of it. Whatever
the voltage might be, multiplying it by zero Amps still gives zero
power!

---
That's not how they do it.

Since they know that they'll get back every bit of current they send
you, they keep track of what they send you for three months, normalize
it to 1 and call it "a", call what you send them back "b", and then do
the followwing maths:

normalize a:
a = 1

set b = a:
a = b

multiply both sides by a:
a² = ab

subtract b² from both sides:
a² - b² = ab - b²

factor both sides:
(a + b)(a - b) = b (a - b)

divide both sides by (a - b):
(a + b)(a - b) = b (a - b)
-------------- -----------
(a - b) (a - b)

remove terms which cancel ((a -b)) from both sides:
a + b = b

convert:
1 + 1 = 1

So, you can see that the sum of the amount they sent you and the
amount they received back _has_ to be the same as the amount they sent
you, and that's what they bill you for.

--
John Fields

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:48:00 GMT, (Don
Pearce) wrote:

Aww c'mon - if you multiply a positive voltage by a positive current
you get positive power. If you multiply negative voltage by negative
current you get positive power.

Sorry, Don, you obviously haven't thought this through. Since *all*
their current is returned, I cannot have used *any* of it. Whatever
the voltage might be, multiplying it by zero Amps still gives zero
power!

Paul, perhaps you should be a politician...

What you are charged for is the use of the current as it flows through
your appliances etc. Because the current flows in your appliances it
places a load on their generating plant. Because millions of houses
are also doing the same thing at the same time the load on the
generating plant is enormous and in order to supply the large amount
of current required by all users (yes, even though they do get it back
in the return feed), the generating plant has to be enormous itself.
Now, power stations aren't something you pick off a tree, they have to
be built and maintained and they consume "energy" in order to be able
to generate the large amount of current which flows.

Now even a dill can see that the cost of building and running the
plant has to be paid for and the cost of doing this is usually
amortised over a period of 15 or 20 years and after that it is pure
profit. So you are paying for the current which flows through your
systems to generate heat, cool and cook your food, run your stereo
etc, etc. Now despite your fallacious arguments about supply voltage
summing to zero and the supply authority getting all their current
back after having gone through your house, you can't argue that you
shouldn't be charged purely for no other reason than the law stating
the conservation of energy.

"Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but may only be changed
from one form to another."

The supply authority is changing one form of energy to another in
order to generate electrical energy and you are changing the energy
they supply into other forms required to generate heat, cooling etc in
your household. I can tell you this, converting energy from one form
to another doesn't come free and not even a politician would be stupid
enough to believe that it does.



Anyway - are you cleaning and refurbishing those amps before you give
them back?

Why should I? That's *their* job. I pay enough!

They wear out, you know.

You mean they like lose their charge after a while? That would make
sense as I've found as years have gone by, I've had to turn the
heating up more and more. The thieving *******s!

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
wrote:


What you are charged for is the use of the current as it flows through
your appliances etc.

You are not charged for using it. You are charged for BORROWING it.
Ian.
--

Ian Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
wrote:


What you are charged for is the use of the current as it flows through
your appliances etc.


You are not charged for using it. You are charged for BORROWING it.
Ian.

Yes, there's an extra fee if you keep any half cycles without returning
them on the following half cycles. It's called the Semi-Unused Cycle
Kinetic Electricity Return fee.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

In rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Roy Lewallen wrote:
Ian Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
wrote:


What you are charged for is the use of the current as it flows through
your appliances etc.


You are not charged for using it. You are charged for BORROWING it.
Ian.

Yes, there's an extra fee if you keep any half cycles without returning
them on the following half cycles. It's called the Semi-Unused Cycle
Kinetic Electricity Return fee.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Be thankful that you have ac power coming to your home. Back in my days in
the old country, I used to walk 5 miles through snow and sludge in the
middle of winter to go to the next village to buy a couple of batteries so
that my father can listen to his nightly stories on our wireless. :P

--
Alf Beta.

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:39:56 +0000, Alf Beta wrote:

In rec.radio.amateur.homebrew Roy Lewallen wrote:
Ian Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
wrote:


What you are charged for is the use of the current as it flows through
your appliances etc.


You are not charged for using it. You are charged for BORROWING it.
Ian.

Yes, there's an extra fee if you keep any half cycles without returning
them on the following half cycles. It's called the Semi-Unused Cycle
Kinetic Electricity Return fee.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Be thankful that you have ac power coming to your home. Back in my days in
the old country, I used to walk 5 miles through snow and sludge in the
middle of winter to go to the next village to buy a couple of batteries so
that my father can listen to his nightly stories on our wireless. :P

They should have tied a string to you, that was looped around a spool,
that turned a generator while you were walking. Dad could have listened
while you walked!

Cheers!
RIch

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:21:49 +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:


On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
wrote:


What you are charged for is the use of the current as it flows through
your appliances etc.

You are not charged for using it. You are charged for BORROWING it.

This is not true either. You are charged for THE ENERGY REQUIRED TO
SHOVE THEM THROUGH YOUR SYSTEM.

The electrons are incidental, very much like the push rod that connects
the piston to the crankshaft.

Cheers!
Rich

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 04:50:48 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
wrote:

The electrons are incidental, very much like the push rod that connects
the piston to the crankshaft.

Thanks for the tip, Rich. I'll remove the push rods from my car engine
and save a bit of weight.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

Well, you can look at it this way...It's basically a series circuit,
from generator, through all customer houses, and back to the generator.
You may be returning ALMOST all of the current coming into your house,
minus resistive losses, but if you divert that voltage and current
through one of your appliances, the voltage and current (hence power)
will actually be doing some work. Electricity, while being USED in your
house, is like an employee of YOURS...it is doing WORK, so legally you
must pay the worker's wages for work performed. Just be glad you don't
have to pay it's social security taxes, fed and state taxes, health
insurance, worker's comp insurance premiums, 401K contributions, etc.
Starts to make electricity (employee) sound cheap.

Scott


Paul Burridge wrote:



Sorry, Don, you obviously haven't thought this through. Since *all*
their current is returned, I cannot have used *any* of it. Whatever
the voltage might be, multiplying it by zero Amps still gives zero
power!