wrote in message
oups.com...
All,

I've got a brother who works for a consulting firm whose main customer
is Homeland Secrity.

What the feds want to do is to be able to communicate mil-spec digital
packets over low power links in the middle of a disaster-hit area
between squads of Guards deployed across a destroyed city.

They cannot assume that hams and ham equipment will be available, and
they do not want to carry heavy equipment into a city. They want to be
able to use equipment that they can readily commandeer from stores such
as Radio Shack.

That pretty much means CB radios. I have heard of hams working DX
using 5 watts of PSK on 10 meters using poor antennas, so that gives me
the idea that Guard units could form medium range mobile networks using
5 watts of PSK on 11 meters using wires dropped off bridges.

Eventually the hams that do get on the scene could set up a CB to HF
gateway so that the packets could make it out from the Guards to the
NGOs.

While I am more than willing to test this setup out for my brother on a
pair of CB radios, I told him I might need an STA from the FCC to
communicate data on CB channel 40. He tells me that in an emergency,
anyone can use any frequencies they want, any power, any mode. I told
him true, but that does not help me as an OEM getting fined for testing
out an emergency scenario in a nonemergency situation.

Suggestions?

The Eternal Squire

IMHO The feds have plenty of radio equipment with comms operators that could
be shipped to disaster hit area faster than your average guards unit could
adapt/setup a purloined unit.

Brian 2W0BDW wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
All,

I've got a brother who works for a consulting firm whose main customer
is Homeland Secrity.

What the feds want to do is to be able to communicate mil-spec digital
packets over low power links in the middle of a disaster-hit area
between squads of Guards deployed across a destroyed city.

They cannot assume that hams and ham equipment will be available, and
they do not want to carry heavy equipment into a city. They want to be
able to use equipment that they can readily commandeer from stores such
as Radio Shack.

That pretty much means CB radios. I have heard of hams working DX
using 5 watts of PSK on 10 meters using poor antennas, so that gives me
the idea that Guard units could form medium range mobile networks using
5 watts of PSK on 11 meters using wires dropped off bridges.

Eventually the hams that do get on the scene could set up a CB to HF
gateway so that the packets could make it out from the Guards to the
NGOs.

While I am more than willing to test this setup out for my brother on a
pair of CB radios, I told him I might need an STA from the FCC to
communicate data on CB channel 40. He tells me that in an emergency,
anyone can use any frequencies they want, any power, any mode. I told
him true, but that does not help me as an OEM getting fined for testing
out an emergency scenario in a nonemergency situation.

Suggestions?

The Eternal Squire

IMHO The feds have plenty of radio equipment with comms operators that could
be shipped to disaster hit area faster than your average guards unit could
adapt/setup a purloined unit.


Thank you all for your suggestions.

This is not a hoax. But I too find the need sufficiently implausible
that I feel a little bit queasy taking R&D fees for a cause like this
at $50 per hour. The only reason that I'm not mentioning the
consulting firm is that I could stand to get paid... and any money is
better than no money. And if I'm the king's coin then I ought to make
it work.

I agree, Truck stops are a very good idea for commandeering CB's, but
you only find those in the exurbs.. Yes, other commercial radio
services could and maybe even should be drafted into this. The squad
lead could then determine the tradeoffs based on the availability of
foraged equipment.

Allison, your idea of using the dummy loads to simulate fading over
distance is OUTSTANDING. I'll do it!

Using dummy loads as a demo, I could then get the consulting firm to
ask the FCC for an STA for field tests.

For my test rigs, I'm intending to plug in a laptop sound card I/O into
the SSB mic and headphone jacks. Therefore no type acceptance needed
because no mods.

My brother says ideally in the scenario, each squad leader should only
need to carry a mini-CDROM in his or her pocket. The squad lead could
then commandeer a laptop, an SSB CB radio, and then use an abandoned
automobile as an electric generator for the laptop and radio. Antenna
would be flung over a 3 story office building.

One of the reasons for this scenario is to lighten the overall squad
load and thereby increase the speed of response. That way each squad
could break into an abandoned store and then set up a first responder
posts.

wrote:

snip

My brother says ideally in the scenario, each squad leader should only
need to carry a mini-CDROM in his or her pocket. The squad lead could
then commandeer a laptop, an SSB CB radio, and then use an abandoned
automobile as an electric generator for the laptop and radio. Antenna
would be flung over a 3 story office building.

Let's see, all you have to do is find a bunch of laptops with 12V
adapters, a bunch of CB radios with documentation on the mic input,
a soldering iron to make up a mic/laptop interface cable (assuming
you can use the existing mic cable connector).

The only problem left is how to get the abandoned automobile to the
top of the 3 story office building (if any are left standing in this
disaster).

You know, sometimes as a consultant you just have to find a way to
tell the customer he is crazy but you have an altenate idea that
they might like in acceptable language.

One of the reasons for this scenario is to lighten the overall squad
load and thereby increase the speed of response. That way each squad
could break into an abandoned store and then set up a first responder
posts.

Seems to me it would be easier to come up with a plan to stockpile
and distribute standard squad radios the troops already know how to use.

But I'm just a retired Army signal guy, so what would I know?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In article .com,
wrote:
All,

I've got a brother who works for a consulting firm whose main customer
is Homeland Secrity.

What the feds want to do is to be able to communicate mil-spec digital
packets over low power links in the middle of a disaster-hit area
between squads of Guards deployed across a destroyed city.

They cannot assume that hams and ham equipment will be available, and
they do not want to carry heavy equipment into a city. They want to be
able to use equipment that they can readily commandeer from stores such
as Radio Shack.

That pretty much means CB radios. I have heard of hams working DX
using 5 watts of PSK on 10 meters using poor antennas, so that gives me
the idea that Guard units could form medium range mobile networks using
5 watts of PSK on 11 meters using wires dropped off bridges.

Eventually the hams that do get on the scene could set up a CB to HF
gateway so that the packets could make it out from the Guards to the
NGOs.

While I am more than willing to test this setup out for my brother on a
pair of CB radios, I told him I might need an STA from the FCC to
communicate data on CB channel 40. He tells me that in an emergency,
anyone can use any frequencies they want, any power, any mode. I told
him true, but that does not help me as an OEM getting fined for testing
out an emergency scenario in a nonemergency situation.

Suggestions?

The CB band is also listed under the license free regulations, Part 15
so if you run low enough power, you don't need a license, and there are
no particular restrictions on mode.

15.227 Operation within the band 26.96-27.28 MHz.

(a) The field strength of any emission within this band shall not
exceed 10,000 microvolts/meter at 3 meters. The emission limit in this
paragraph is based on measurement instrumenta-tion employing an average
detector. The provisions in § 15.35 for limiting peak emissions apply.

(b) The field strength of any emissions which appear outside of this
band shall not exceed the general radiated emission limits in § 15.209.

Channel 40 is above 27.28 MHz, about channel 27 as near as I can tell
(channels are not sequential frequencies).

Contrary to popular opinion, I think that a packet radio relay made with
a portable computer with a sound card, a CB transceiver, and a patch cable
all made from stuff that you could "liberate" from the local Radio Shack
is possible. Some sort of PTT control (VOX?) would be the hardest part.

Given my opinion of the average CBer's conception of "The Public Good",
I don't expect that a system could run without getting the hell jammed
out of it, even if the military is exempt from FCC regs.

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

In article ,
(Dave Platt) wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:

While I am more than willing to test this setup out for my brother on a
pair of CB radios, I told him I might need an STA from the FCC to
communicate data on CB channel 40. He tells me that in an emergency,
anyone can use any frequencies they want, any power, any mode. I told
him true, but that does not help me as an OEM getting fined for testing
out an emergency scenario in a nonemergency situation.

I think you're correct. Part 95, section 631 (c) and (e) and (f)
make it quite clear that data transmission over CB is a no-no.

In addition, the simple act of hooking up a data transmission circuit
to a CB radio's modulator might be considered to be enough of a
modification to void the transmitter's certification.

Applying for an STA certainly seems to be the safe thing to do. And,
if you get one yourself, the end-user agency should probably also get
one, so they can run periodic tests and drills without breaking the
rules.


First of all: The Federal Government (ie Homeland Security, USCG, US
Army, ectg) doesn't need, or require anything from the FCC, as the FCC
has no jurasdiction over US Federal Government Radio Operatrions. It only
regulates, non-Federal Government Communications. The Office of
Telecommunications Policy, or whatever they changed the name to recently,
is the Clearing House for ALL Federal Communications Operations.

Second of all: Even if you did apply for an STA, the FCC wouldn't grant
it for 27Mhz, as that would specifically go against a Standing FCC
Regulation, and set a very bad policy statement for the future.

Last of all: AM Modulation is the worst type for trying to get error
free communications, and not likely to succeed without spending a pile
of money in the R & D Phase of the modem part of the project.

Me an ex-FCC Field Resident Agent who knows better than
to go down this kind of path.........

Me wrote:

First of all: The Federal Government (ie Homeland Security, USCG, US
Army, ectg) doesn't need, or require anything from the FCC, as the FCC
has no jurasdiction over US Federal Government Radio Operatrions. It only
regulates, non-Federal Government Communications. The Office of
Telecommunications Policy, or whatever they changed the name to recently,
is the Clearing House for ALL Federal Communications Operations.

Second of all: Even if you did apply for an STA, the FCC wouldn't grant
it for 27Mhz, as that would specifically go against a Standing FCC
Regulation, and set a very bad policy statement for the future.

Last of all: AM Modulation is the worst type for trying to get error
free communications, and not likely to succeed without spending a pile
of money in the R & D Phase of the modem part of the project.

Me an ex-FCC Field Resident Agent who knows better than
to go down this kind of path.........


The US ARMY radio & TV station I worked at had FCC licenses hanging
on the walls at Ft. Greely, back in the early '70s but they were
considered "Courtesy Licenses" so the FCC knew to keep track of them
when other stations were built. They had no expiration dates, now power
limits, and no operating hours. They were marked "Until no longer
needed", and "As deemed necessary" and at that time were issued to any
long term US Government RF installation.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

SSB CB radios are pretty rare items in most circles, in fact the troops
trying to commandeer CB's might not be aware of the difference and will
try to use standard CB's and they won't work in the "net". Secondly, SSB
CB's have a clarifier control that has to be adjusted. This is easy
enough with voice, but with data, it is not as easy to do by "ear". You
will have to incorporate some sort of tuning scheme in your software.
You are better off with AM because of these limitations. Are you going
to have a field expedient handbook so that the troops can figure out
which mike wires are which? It is not that easy to figure out if you are
unfamiliar with radio. Your idea of a software solution reminds me of
the BAYCOM TNC modems of the 80's. You might want to research those. You
should be able to get 3 to 5 times that rate in the consulting world by
the way.

wrote:

Brian 2W0BDW wrote:


wrote in message
groups.com...


All,

I've got a brother who works for a consulting firm whose main customer
is Homeland Secrity.

What the feds want to do is to be able to communicate mil-spec digital
packets over low power links in the middle of a disaster-hit area
between squads of Guards deployed across a destroyed city.

They cannot assume that hams and ham equipment will be available, and
they do not want to carry heavy equipment into a city. They want to be
able to use equipment that they can readily commandeer from stores such
as Radio Shack.

That pretty much means CB radios. I have heard of hams working DX
using 5 watts of PSK on 10 meters using poor antennas, so that gives me
the idea that Guard units could form medium range mobile networks using
5 watts of PSK on 11 meters using wires dropped off bridges.

Eventually the hams that do get on the scene could set up a CB to HF
gateway so that the packets could make it out from the Guards to the
NGOs.

While I am more than willing to test this setup out for my brother on a
pair of CB radios, I told him I might need an STA from the FCC to
communicate data on CB channel 40. He tells me that in an emergency,
anyone can use any frequencies they want, any power, any mode. I told
him true, but that does not help me as an OEM getting fined for testing
out an emergency scenario in a nonemergency situation.

Suggestions?

The Eternal Squire



IMHO The feds have plenty of radio equipment with comms operators that could
be shipped to disaster hit area faster than your average guards unit could
adapt/setup a purloined unit.




Thank you all for your suggestions.

This is not a hoax. But I too find the need sufficiently implausible
that I feel a little bit queasy taking R&D fees for a cause like this
at $50 per hour. The only reason that I'm not mentioning the
consulting firm is that I could stand to get paid... and any money is
better than no money. And if I'm the king's coin then I ought to make
it work.

I agree, Truck stops are a very good idea for commandeering CB's, but
you only find those in the exurbs.. Yes, other commercial radio
services could and maybe even should be drafted into this. The squad
lead could then determine the tradeoffs based on the availability of
foraged equipment.

Allison, your idea of using the dummy loads to simulate fading over
distance is OUTSTANDING. I'll do it!

Using dummy loads as a demo, I could then get the consulting firm to
ask the FCC for an STA for field tests.

For my test rigs, I'm intending to plug in a laptop sound card I/O into
the SSB mic and headphone jacks. Therefore no type acceptance needed
because no mods.

My brother says ideally in the scenario, each squad leader should only
need to carry a mini-CDROM in his or her pocket. The squad lead could
then commandeer a laptop, an SSB CB radio, and then use an abandoned
automobile as an electric generator for the laptop and radio. Antenna
would be flung over a 3 story office building.

One of the reasons for this scenario is to lighten the overall squad
load and thereby increase the speed of response. That way each squad
could break into an abandoned store and then set up a first responder
posts.




--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

"Follow The Money" ;-P

wrote:
wrote:

Let's see, all you have to do is find a bunch of laptops with 12V
adapters,

12V power is standard power jack for laptops

a bunch of CB radios with documentation on the mic input,

The docs could be on the CD-ROM. Squad leader or designate
could read that using the laptop.

a soldering iron to make up a mic/laptop interface cable (assuming
you can use the existing mic cable connector).
Shouldn't be too hard.


The only problem left is how to get the abandoned automobile to the
top of the 3 story office building (if any are left standing in this
disaster).
The feed could start at street level and connect to a dipole on the
rooftop.

Me wrote:
In article ,
(Dave Platt) wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:

While I am more than willing to test this setup out for my brother on a
pair of CB radios, I told him I might need an STA from the FCC to
communicate data on CB channel 40. He tells me that in an emergency,
anyone can use any frequencies they want, any power, any mode. I told
him true, but that does not help me as an OEM getting fined for testing
out an emergency scenario in a nonemergency situation.

I think you're correct. Part 95, section 631 (c) and (e) and (f)
make it quite clear that data transmission over CB is a no-no.

In addition, the simple act of hooking up a data transmission circuit
to a CB radio's modulator might be considered to be enough of a
modification to void the transmitter's certification.

Applying for an STA certainly seems to be the safe thing to do. And,
if you get one yourself, the end-user agency should probably also get
one, so they can run periodic tests and drills without breaking the
rules.


First of all: The Federal Government (ie Homeland Security, USCG, US
Army, ectg) doesn't need, or require anything from the FCC, as the FCC
has no jurasdiction over US Federal Government Radio Operatrions. It only
regulates, non-Federal Government Communications. The Office of
Telecommunications Policy, or whatever they changed the name to recently,
is the Clearing House for ALL Federal Communications Operations.

Then I guess if the consulting firm can get the necessary authority to
waive the need for an STA, I won't complain.

Second of all: Even if you did apply for an STA, the FCC wouldn't grant
it for 27Mhz,

If the FCC was trying to prove itself modern for digital commo by
trying to kill amateur HF using BPL, then with this they have a chance
to let CB'ers enter the digital age. Maybe the FCC will go for it..

as that would specifically go against a Standing FCC
Regulation, and set a very bad policy statement for the future.

In other words, an Act of Congress would be necessary?


Last of all: AM Modulation is the worst type for trying to get error
free communications, and not likely to succeed without spending a pile
of money in the R & D Phase of the modem part of the project.

Using SSB CB radios.

Me an ex-FCC Field Resident Agent who knows better than
to go down this kind of path.........

And tell him to buy a text book on - well, just about anything except
self-promotion - he doesnt seem to know very much. Probably why hes a
consultant. Is he an accountant?

Nope, a geoscientist.