Just had an interesting conversation on IRC with some DL hams, who
mentioned that they haven't signed up for "Logbook of the World" yet
because of the hassle. Anybody have an opinion where we should be
applying pressure? To the ARRL to come up with an easier way for
non-US hams to sign up? For non-US amateur radio organizations to
step in as an intermediary?

Rich

On Feb 27, 10:46 am, Rich McAllister K6RFM wrote:
Just had an interesting conversation on IRC with some DL hams, who
mentioned that they haven't signed up for "Logbook of the World" yet
because of the hassle. Anybody have an opinion where we should be
applying pressure? To the ARRL to come up with an easier way for
non-US hams to sign up? For non-US amateur radio organizations to
step in as an intermediary?

Rich

Rich,

I don't see the ARRL relinquishing control of LOTW so I don't believe
you'll see any "intermediaries" coming into play. LOTW is a bit of a
pain. The process is clunky but it works. There is a need for good
security. There has to be a way to ensure that each fellow uploading
information is who he says he is.

I was slow to come on board but the process costs less than mailing
QSLs.

Dave K8MN

On Feb 27, 5:46 am, Rich McAllister K6RFM wrote:
Just had an interesting conversation on IRC with some DL hams, who
mentioned that they haven't signed up for "Logbook of the World" yet
because of the hassle. Anybody have an opinion where we should be
applying pressure? To the ARRL to come up with an easier way for
non-US hams to sign up? For non-US amateur radio organizations to
step in as an intermediary?

Rich

What particular parts in the sign up process do they consider to be a
hassle? That would be the place to start in attempting to come up
with a solution.

Dee. N8UZE

On Feb 27, 4:01 pm, "Dee Flint" wrote:


What particular parts in the sign up process do they consider to be a
hassle? That would be the place to start in attempting to come up
with a solution.


Getting started is fairly painless for FCC-licensed amateurs, but a
non-USA operator requesting a certificate for Logbook of the World
must send a copy of his/her Amateur Radio operating authorization in
addition to a copy of one other government-issued document indicating
his/her identity. Such an additional document might be a driver's
license, or the first page of a passport. These documents must be sent
to ARRL via postal mail not email. This is quite a bit more of a
hassle than you or I go through, and because of overseas mail delays,
can take quite a while to accomplish.

73, de Hans, K0HB

"Dee Flint" writes:

On Feb 27, 5:46 am, Rich McAllister K6RFM wrote:
Just had an interesting conversation on IRC with some DL hams, who
mentioned that they haven't signed up for "Logbook of the World" yet
because of the hassle.

What particular parts in the sign up process do they consider to be a
hassle? That would be the place to start in attempting to come up
with a solution.


https://p1k.arrl.org/lotw/docreq shows the procedure. US hams can
request a postcard by email/upload and that's it. DX hams have to copy
their license and another piece of government ID and send this by
international physical mail to Newington. Doesn't sound like much, but
copying and mailing documents isn't necessarily cheap or easy, and I
suspect that not everybody still has a physical copy of the license.
It sure seems like other IARU societies could be deputized to send out
local postcards without breaching security, or the ARRL could get
trustable copies of the license information. NOthing is likely to work
everywhere (some of the societies are very small and have limited
resources, I'm sure not every government makes trustable copies of the
databases available) but just getting some of the bigger ones would be
progress.

Rich, K6RFM

On Feb 27, 4:46�am, Rich McAllister K6RFM wrote:
Just had an interesting conversation on IRC with some DL hams, who
mentioned that they haven't signed up for "Logbook of the World" yet
because of the hassle. Anybody have an opinion where we should be
applying pressure? *To the ARRL to come up with an easier way for
non-US hams to sign up? *For non-US amateur radio organizations to
step in as an intermediary?

Sorry, Rich, but in this case I have to side with the "let's keep
this the HUMAN side of the contact" idea.

To me, the real reward of the QSO, other than having made a new
acquaintence, is that card that I know was actually in his/her hands
(big DXpeditions and QSL-managed stations aside...)

73

Steve, K4YZ

On Feb 27, 8:15�pm, Rich McAllister K6RFM wrote:
"Dee Flint" writes:
On Feb 27, 5:46 am, Rich McAllister K6RFM wrote:
Just had an interesting conversation on IRC with some DL hams, who
mentioned that they haven't signed up for "Logbook of the World" yet
because of the hassle.

What particular parts in the sign up process do they consider to be a
hassle? *That would be the place to start in attempting to come up
with a solution.

https://p1k.arrl.org/lotw/docreqshows the procedure. US hams can
request a postcard by email/upload and that's it. DX hams have to copy
their license and another piece of government ID and send this by
international physical mail to Newington. Doesn't sound like much, but
copying and mailing documents isn't necessarily cheap or easy, and I
suspect that not everybody still has a physical copy of the license.

I don't get it, Rich. I don't know of any administration that
DOESN'T issue some sort of hardcopy document for a license. Mine's
both on the wall and in my pocket, and both are points of pride.

Unless you're using the one working copier in Mogadishu chances
are the copy price isn't more than the equivilent of $1, and another
$1-3 to mail it, depending on the method...So...A one time expense of
less than $5.00...Tell me what DX station can't afford this and I'll
spot them the fin!

73

Steve, K4YZ

writes:

On Feb 27, 8:15�pm, Rich McAllister K6RFM wrote:

DX hams have to copy
their license and another piece of government ID and send this by
international physical mail to Newington. Doesn't sound like much, but
copying and mailing documents isn't necessarily cheap or easy, and I
suspect that not everybody still has a physical copy of the license.

I don't get it, Rich. I don't know of any administration that
DOESN'T issue some sort of hardcopy document for a license.

Well, note I said "not everybody still has", not "ever had". Some
people take pride just in the fact of having the license, or in the
accomplishments they've made after getting it, rather than in the
piece of paper; not to mention the possibility of simply losing it
over time. "It's in the house -- somewhere!"

Mine's
both on the wall and in my pocket, and both are points of pride.

Unless you're using the one working copier in Mogadishu chances
are the copy price isn't more than the equivilent of $1, and another
$1-3 to mail it, depending on the method...So...A one time expense of
less than $5.00...Tell me what DX station can't afford this and I'll
spot them the fin!

The hassle is probably much more of a barrier than the monetary
cost, for sure.

What we have here is your opinion of what might be a reasonable effort
for someone else to make, versus the opinions I heard from people who
would actually have to make the effort; I find the second more
convincing.

[from .com]
To me, the real reward of the QSO, other than having made a new
acquaintence, is that card that I know was actually in his/her hands
(big DXpeditions and QSL-managed stations aside...)

Opinions do differ. Some people don't care much about QSLs at all;
this is a pretty common (not universal!) attitude among
contesters. LOTW would never be a satisfactory substitute for people
like you who love the physical QSL, but it does have the ability to
make one sizeable group -- award chasers -- happy while reducing the
overall hassle for another sizeable group -- contesters and to some extent
DXpeditioners.


Rich, K6RFM

On Feb 28, 9:50 pm, Rich McAllister K6RFM wrote:
writes:
On Feb 27, 8:15?pm, Rich McAllister K6RFM wrote:
DX hams have to copy
their license and another piece of government ID and send this by
international physical mail to Newington. Doesn't sound like much, but
copying and mailing documents isn't necessarily cheap or easy, and I
suspect that not everybody still has a physical copy of the license.

I don't get it, Rich. I don't know of any administration that
DOESN'T issue some sort of hardcopy document for a license.

Well, note I said "not everybody still has", not "ever had". Some
people take pride just in the fact of having the license, or in the
accomplishments they've made after getting it, rather than in the
piece of paper; not to mention the possibility of simply losing it
over time. "It's in the house -- somewhere!"

I've never operated from a DX country where one did not need to keep
tabs on his license. Many foreign countries issue licenses *yearly*.

Mine's
both on the wall and in my pocket, and both are points of pride.

Unless you're using the one working copier in Mogadishu chances
are the copy price isn't more than the equivilent of $1, and another
$1-3 to mail it, depending on the method...So...A one time expense of
less than $5.00...Tell me what DX station can't afford this and I'll
spot them the fin!

The hassle is probably much more of a barrier than the monetary
cost, for sure.

Even in places like Sierra Leone, it is possible to find a street
corner stand with a copy machine. If the object is being able to
participate in the LOTW program, what real barrier is presented by
having to photocopy a couple of documents and mail them?

What we have here is your opinion of what might be a reasonable effort
for someone else to make, versus the opinions I heard from people who
would actually have to make the effort; I find the second more
convincing.

I disagree with you, Rich. If there are DX station who find it too
much trouble to participate in LOTW, let them be non-participants.
Either they want to participate or not. Copying and mailing documents
aren't the real difficulty of using LOTW.

[from .com]

To me, the real reward of the QSO, other than having made a new
acquaintence, is that card that I know was actually in his/her hands
(big DXpeditions and QSL-managed stations aside...)

Opinions do differ. Some people don't care much about QSLs at all;
this is a pretty common (not universal!) attitude among
contesters.

Again, I disagree. Many contesters are also DXers. They understand
that the other guy is attempting to confirm a QSL for awards credit.
A number of them send out QSLs to every station worked in a contest,
the object being to insure that those stations work the contester the
next time 'round. I don't know of any contester who does not at least
respond to direct or bureau QSLs.

LOTW would never be a satisfactory substitute for people
like you who love the physical QSL, but it does have the ability to
make one sizeable group -- award chasers -- happy while reducing the
overall hassle for another sizeable group -- contesters and to some extent
DXpeditioners.

There's nothing at all wrong with using both LOTW and direct, paper
QSL cards.
On the other hand, I don't respond to any "QSL's" via E-QSL. Those
confirmations don't count toward many awards and certainly don't count
for DXCC credit.


Dave K8MN

writes:

On Feb 28, 9:50 pm, Rich McAllister K6RFM wrote:
writes:

I've never operated from a DX country where one did not need to keep
tabs on his license.

Under what circumstances does a German, Canadian or UK ham have to produce a
paper copy, and to whom?

The hassle is probably much more of a barrier than the monetary
cost, for sure.

Even in places like Sierra Leone, it is possible to find a street
corner stand with a copy machine.

I don't particularly care about the Sierra Leones of the world, people
operating from there are generally very highly motivated and one of
the main goals is to get the QSLs out. I'm more interested in
greasing the skids for a large population of more casual ops, probably
in the big developed countries where the welfare state has created a
sense of entitlement.

If the object is being able to
participate in the LOTW program, what real barrier is presented by
having to photocopy a couple of documents and mail them?

The barrier of going out, getting photocopies, finding a big-enough
envelope, determining and acquiring the right amount of postage. It
doesn't sound like much, but the alternative is to not do it at all,
which is *way* less work on a relative basis. US hams just have to
log on to a web site twice, waiting for a postcard in between. It was
worth some amount of organizational effort to make it easy for US
hams, why isn't it worth the same to do so for others?



I disagree with you, Rich. If there are DX station who find it too
much trouble to participate in LOTW, let them be non-participants.

But I *want* them to be participants.

Either they want to participate or not.

Fallacy of the excluded middle here, they may want to participate but
also want to spend the afternoon running a new feed line instead of
getting photocopies and standing in line at the post office.

Copying and mailing documents aren't the real difficulty of using
LOTW.

But it's the part that's different for non-US hams. Hassling with the
certificates and logging software is pretty much the same for
everybody.


Opinions do differ. Some people don't care much about QSLs at all;
this is a pretty common (not universal!) attitude among
contesters.

Again, I disagree. Many contesters are also DXers. They understand
that the other guy is attempting to confirm a QSL for awards credit.
A number of them send out QSLs to every station worked in a contest,
the object being to insure that those stations work the contester the
next time 'round.

Some people QSL 100% just to avoid the hassle of keeping track of QSLs
sent and owed, batch processing being less time consuming than
individual transactions. This way they can just throw away any
incoming QSLs, and do.

As you note, right now contesters pretty much have to do it as part of
the game. LOTW has the possiblity of making it easier for the big
statiions that pound out a lot of Q's while still rewarding the award
chasers for getting on in the contest. We get to keep the fun part
and reduce the busywork part, sure seems like a win to me.


There's nothing at all wrong with using both LOTW and direct, paper
QSL cards.

Who said there was? Where did this come from?

On the other hand, I don't respond to any "QSL's" via E-QSL. Those
confirmations don't count toward many awards and certainly don't count
for DXCC credit.

I fooled with eQSL for a while (mostly before LOTW got started.) I
eventually came to the conclusion it was pointless and gave up.

Rich, K6RFM