Reading all the back and forth discussion of Steve's upcoming classes and
his concerns... I'm getting really confused. When I was a teenager playing
with CB, I didn't know nuthin' from nuthin' about radio, antennas, you name
it. Once I became determined to become a ham, I eagerly learned all about it
in order to pass my Novice, and then the General, and.... and at points when
I saw the need (such as "gee, what is this 'swr' business?"), I learned
more. So Steve, if you're so concerned about how these "students" are going
to respond to your technical talks and related licensing materials, why are
they even invited? Are they really interested in becoming hams? Or (at an
extreme), are you recruiting potential hams like "Psssst! Hey kid - come
'eah - you wanna get a ham license?"

If they're going to whine about "Why do I have to learn this stuff??" then
*I* don't think they deserve the privilege of a license.

Howard N7SO

On Oct 25, 6:57?pm, "Howard Lester" wrote:

Once I became determined to become a ham, I eagerly
learned all about it
in order to pass my Novice, and then the General, and....
and at points when
I saw the need (such as "gee, what is this 'swr' business?"),
I learned more.

I was and still am like that. A lot of radio stuff I learned simply
because it looked interesting or might be useful "someday".

But not everyone is like that. Doesn't mean they can't be
good hams.

So Steve, if you're so concerned about how these "students"
are going
to respond to your technical talks and related licensing
materials, why are
they even invited?

Anyone with interest is invited. And any good teacher tries to
match the presentation to the students.

Are they really interested in becoming hams?

*That's* the key question.

Or (at an
extreme), are you recruiting potential hams like "Psssst! Hey kid - come 'eah - you wanna get a ham license?"

Well, it's not quite like that!

The way I see it, people with interest should be welcomed and
helped. But the person has to take a certain amount of
responsibility to learn what's needed and to get set up. There's
a point where "help" turns into "doing it for" in such a way that
it actually works against the goal.

It's the old "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" thing, aka
"learned helplessness".

If they're going to whine about "Why do I have to learn this
stuff??" then
*I* don't think they deserve the privilege of a license.

It's not "whining" to ask why the requirements exist. All
license test requirements have to justify their existence.

The Basis and Purpose of amateur radio includes the
idea that hams will know at least the basics of radio. Ohm's
Law and the relation of frequency and wavelength are
pretty basic radio stuff, therefore, they belong on the test.

Simple as that.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Howard Lester wrote:
Reading all the back and forth discussion of Steve's upcoming classes and
his concerns... I'm getting really confused. When I was a teenager playing
with CB, I didn't know nuthin' from nuthin' about radio, antennas, you name
it. Once I became determined to become a ham, I eagerly learned all about it
in order to pass my Novice, and then the General, and.... and at points when
I saw the need (such as "gee, what is this 'swr' business?"), I learned
more. So Steve, if you're so concerned about how these "students" are going
to respond to your technical talks and related licensing materials, why are
they even invited? Are they really interested in becoming hams? Or (at an
extreme), are you recruiting potential hams like "Psssst! Hey kid - come
'eah - you wanna get a ham license?"

If they're going to whine about "Why do I have to learn this stuff??" then
*I* don't think they deserve the privilege of a license.

Let me try to address your questions and comments from Jim. I
understand what you are both saying, and agree with much of it. But we
have some basic disagreements.

Let's remind ourselves of the five purposes of the amateur radio service
from Part 97:

(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to
the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur’s proven ability to
contribute to the advancement of the radio art.
(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules
which provide for advancing skills in both the communications and
technical phases of the art.
(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service
of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.
(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur’s unique ability to
enhance international goodwill.

Items b, c, and d require technical knowledge of radio. Items a and e
do not.

There are two reasons why I do not expect the students in my entry-level
class to develop a detailed understanding of electronics.

First, this knowledge is not necessary in today's hobby. Sure, it's
desirable, and it's necessary if you want to actually get involved in
certain aspects of the hobby, like building your own equipment. But it
is perfectly possible to participate in emergency communications, or to
enhance international goodwill, and not know an ohm from an amp.

Second, most people today simply do not have any desire to learn radio
theory. Does that mean that these individuals should be excluded from
the ham radio hobby? I do not think so. It's certainly your prerogative
to believe differently. Related to this, I know that most of these
folks are "learning" this material simply so that they can pass the test
and that within a couple of weeks they'll retain none of it. If that
bothered me, I wouldn't teach the class.

In short, my goal is to get some new hams licensed. At worst, they can
fulfill two of the five stated goals of the service. At best, they will
discover the wonders of the hobby and get involved, and in that process
they'll learn a lot more because they want to. I hope that I can help
them get involved, but they'll never get involved if they don't pass
that first exam.

I have about 18 hours of one-on-many time with these folks. I have to
figure out how to "best" use this time. "Best" is really what we're
talking about in this subthread. I'd love to give them a good
electronics background, but that's simply not possible in 18 hours. My
primary goal is to get them through the exam, and that factors into my
definition of "best use of time".

I don't think that my standards are too low. I would rather give these
folks an opportunity to be productive members of the ham radio
fraternity than to insist on a burning desire from the beginning to
learn about radio fundamentals.

Steve Bonine wrote:


If I may interject here, I think we may be treating people as a group
more so than individuals.

Some of those people in your class may just want to fire up the repeater
and chat.

Some of them may just want to do emergency comms.

Some may want to build stuff.


Very importantly though, they may not know until they are exposed to it.

When I first became a Ham, my interests were in applying the hobby to my
other hobby, amateur astronomy.

After that, I joined a club, and went to FD. I operated Field day with a
control OP. I thought WOW! this is a lot of fun. So I went for my
General Test. After Struggling with Morse Code - it is not easy for some
of us, I got my General Ticket.

Then I discovered Digital modes, and a whole new part of the hobby
opened up for me.

I kept on discovering things, the latest being how enjoyable HF Mobile
is. I built my own bugcatcher, and have been surprised how well it
works, given the low efficiency of mobile antenna setups.

My point here is that I discovered a lot of things about Ham Radio that
I didn't expect, and they became the focus of my hobby.

Oddly enough, I never integrated Amateur radio as I had originally
planned to, in Astronomy.

Don't sell the students short. Some of them may indeed just want to
"pass the test". But by exposing them to a little of the different
aspects of the hobby might just awake something in them that they didn't
know existed.

Some thoughts for demos:

Obvious ones like the repeater operations.

An FT-817 with a miracle whip might be just the ticket for demonstrating
SSB, CW and Digital. With all the "hot" setups out there, a less than
mediocre setup such as this will still be able to make QSOs with.

I'd suggest going from FM to SSB to PSK-31, to CW, just to keep things
lively. Could be done by bandwidth, with an explanation of how the
smaller bandwidth signal tends to get across better. It's always good to
have a sked setup with another Ham in case propagation is bad.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

On Oct 25, 5:51?pm, Steve Bonine wrote:

In short, my goal is to get some new hams licensed. At worst, they can
fulfill two of the five stated goals of the service. At best, they will
discover the wonders of the hobby and get involved, and in that process
they'll learn a lot more because they want to. I hope that I can help
them get involved, but they'll never get involved if they don't pass
that first exam.

I have about 18 hours of one-on-many time with these folks. I have to
figure out how to "best" use this time. "Best" is really what we're
talking about in this subthread. I'd love to give them a good
electronics background, but that's simply not possible in 18 hours. My
primary goal is to get them through the exam, and that factors into my
definition of "best use of time".

I don't think that my standards are too low. I would rather give these
folks an opportunity to be productive members of the ham radio
fraternity than to insist on a burning desire from the beginning to
learn about radio fundamentals.

Steve, from all the talk of the others and your very patient replies,
I think you are doing the right thing with your preparations. It is
very basic stuff you are doing and that is a good step, perhaps the
best step for your Class of collected tabula rasas. I applaud your
efforts.

Since I've been involved in radio and electronics (one way or another)
for 6 decades, making the "Compleat Ham" (as Phil put it) just can't
be done in 18 hours. It would take at least a thousand hours, perhaps
two. Had it been that long a 'class' the drop-out rate would be
large. As you say, some aren't interested in theory, some are only
interested in certain aspects of radio. Those who only want VHF and
up operation probably could care less about the ionosphere and all
that long-distance propagation. But...the thing others haven't
mentioned or others just gloss over is that you HAVE some that are
interested enough to come for 18 hours.

"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

So far, the 'discussion' has been a lot of argument by others all
about stepping, which way to go, etc., etc., ad something or other. I
doubt that anything of that applies. They have taken the first nibble
of the bait and aren't yet hooked, but I sense you can play them in.

PRESENTATIONS of anything are always better with a sense of theater
about them. That involves the personality of the presenter, the prime
focus of all in this classroom. Their interest must be held and
focussed on the material and that comes from their sensing the
presenter' mood and personality. Projection of the presenter to this
'audience' requies confidence and a friendliness with them.

Preparation and presentation go hand-in-hand. It is nice if you can
do some audio-visual things but simple, easy-to-read-at-distance
graphics will do. It breaks the flow a bit, but that's good. It lets
the class focus on the material; they don't always have to watch the
presenter. Being at ease in front of an audience is sometimes a
toughie. It was for me the first few times, but I adapted to it. The
ease of the presenter is absorbed by this 'audience.' Lack of ease
will reflect in the audience drifting away from the presentation and
they may feel uncomfortable.

Since I'm a bit far from you, I can't watch a rehersal of your
presentation and suggest some improvement, but maybe there's one or
more there who would be willing to stand in for the 'audience?' I
don't know how much experience you've had before such an audience but
I think you will get the feel of it right quick. You know the
material. The only thing left is letting your enthusiasm rub off on
the folks in class.

You've made the first step for them. Now it is time to extend your
hand to have them follow. I hope they ALL follow you...and eagerly.

73, Len AF6AY

AF6AY wrote:

Since I've been involved in radio and electronics (one way or another)
for 6 decades, making the "Compleat Ham" (as Phil put it) just can't
be done in 18 hours. It would take at least a thousand hours, perhaps
two. Had it been that long a 'class' the drop-out rate would be
large.

"Compleat Hams" are not made in class. They are "made" by participating
in the hobby. Traditional classes should be a part of that
participation (I have little patience with the people who say, "I don't
have time to attend your class on emergency communication or participate
in your exercise, but I'll be around when there's a real emergency") but
experience is the real teacher. And you can't begin that experience
until you pass that first written test.

As you say, some aren't interested in theory, some are only
interested in certain aspects of radio. Those who only want VHF and
up operation probably could care less about the ionosphere and all
that long-distance propagation. But...the thing others haven't
mentioned or others just gloss over is that you HAVE some that are
interested enough to come for 18 hours.

One of the things that continues to amaze me about the hobby is that
it's not one hobby, but many. That's one of the things I hope to be
able to communicate to the students in the class . . . not by preaching
to them, but by describing the various aspects of the hobby (or by
having someone who is passionate about "their" aspect come to class and
expound on it). I do think that those who only want VHF should at least
be exposed to propagation and how it works; how can they know if they
might be interested in HF if they never even know it exists.

"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

The journey into the ham radio hobby begins with passing a written exam.

I suppose that's not really true. The journey begins with deciding to
take the journey. For these students, the "single step" is attending
this class. That fact sure puts the pressure on the instructor . . .

So far, the 'discussion' has been a lot of argument by others all
about stepping, which way to go, etc., etc., ad something or other. I
doubt that anything of that applies. They have taken the first nibble
of the bait and aren't yet hooked, but I sense you can play them in.

I hope so. Time will tell.

As a related comment . . . when I started this thread, one of the issues
I was trying to explore was walking the tightrope between "teaching the
pool" and teaching a general electronics class. As I continue to
prepare the details of the class, I'm realizing that teaching a concepts
class based on the pool questions isn't really that bad. If the
students come out of the class understanding the concepts upon which the
pool questions are based, they will have a pretty good start at an
electronics background.

There are some huge gaps, of course. For example, somehow the concept
of inductance doesn't appear at all. But after living with the pool for
a while, I feel better about using it as the basis for an 18-hour
introductory class.

I'm sure that some of the students will spend their study time
memorizing the specific questions from the pool. I hope that I have
some students who will embrace the concepts. All I can do is present
the material in the clearest and most engaging way that I can, let my
passion show through, and provide the mentoring and encouraging
environment to get them into the hobby.

Since I'm a bit far from you, I can't watch a rehersal of your
presentation and suggest some improvement, but maybe there's one or
more there who would be willing to stand in for the 'audience?' I
don't know how much experience you've had before such an audience but
I think you will get the feel of it right quick. You know the
material. The only thing left is letting your enthusiasm rub off on
the folks in class.

I don't mean this to be critical of your suggestion Len, but I'm
reminded of an article I saw last night on the network TV news. It
seems that FEMA decided to give a news conference, and when no reporters
showed up, FEMA employees pretended to be reporters and asked questions
of the FEMA presenter. I'm afraid that rehearsals of this class, which
would likely be held with members of the local radio club taking the
place of the students, would be a lot like that. It would certainly be
useful to do it, and I'm sure my presentation would benefit, but the
"audience" that I get for the real class is likely to be much different
from the "audience" that I would have in a trial run.

I think that the single biggest challenge I'm going to have is finding
the right "pitch point" for this class. I'm expecting to have a few
folks whose eyes glaze over as soon as I try to cover anything even
remotely difficult and a few who will think that my level of coverage is
much too general. Trying to keep the interest of the one group and not
bore the other is going to be a challenge. I hope I'm up to it.

73, Steve KB9X

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:51:57 EDT, Steve Bonine wrote:

"I don't
have time to attend your class on emergency communication or participate
in your exercise, but I'll be around when there's a real emergency"

Yes, there's always one more place in what we call the Resource Pool
Net where untrained and un credentialed hams can sit around and wait
to be called - if ever. The days of a random appearance, HT in hand,
are over in this era of Emergency Comm Centers and Incident Command
Systems. They can't even get in the door of the comm centers today,
and there are no resources available to train them to assist properly
during a "real emergency". Knowing how to rag chew or work a contest
doesn't quite cut it.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

Phil Kane wrote:

and there are no resources available to train them to assist properly
during a "real emergency".

Allow me to rephrase in case someone misinterprets:

There are no resources available during a real emergency to train them.

Phil Kane wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:51:57 EDT, Steve Bonine wrote:

"I don't
have time to attend your class on emergency communication or participate
in your exercise, but I'll be around when there's a real emergency"

Yes, there's always one more place in what we call the Resource Pool
Net where untrained and un credentialed hams can sit around and wait
to be called - if ever. The days of a random appearance, HT in hand,
are over in this era of Emergency Comm Centers and Incident Command
Systems. They can't even get in the door of the comm centers today,
and there are no resources available to train them to assist properly
during a "real emergency". Knowing how to rag chew or work a contest
doesn't quite cut it.

I think that amateur radio is changing in a way that those rag chewers
and contesters won't be wanted at all.

What I have been seeing recently is that people who are already working
in emergency operations have been getting Technician licenses, and
intend to commandeer repeaters as needed during emergencies.

Even in our area, whole groups of folk have been getting licensed in
this reverse manner. We have ambulance drivers, paramedics, comm center
staff. I suspect in the near far term, we won't be getting in the door
period, unless we become some kind of semi professional unpaid volunteer.

I would surmise that regular hams probably won't need to concern
themselves much longer, as once this happens their services will not be
needed. I think a new class of Ham is inadvertently coming about - that
of the quasi-professional ham - one who is employed in a field that
occasionally calls on them to use their amateur radio license in pursuit
of their work. Note that the FCC has upheld this as legal IIRC.

In some respects, it will be much better for the agencies involved. They
will be able to require things that Hams have balked at, such as
investigation of our lifestyles and financial info. All of this can take
place in the work environment, where it is a condition of employment.
Mandatory training sessions are another item in the same line.

The major downside of all this is that as Emergency ops move toward this
mode, the question arises of why they would be using amateur radio to
perform the function at all - they might as well have their own system
on their own frequencies, that they alone use.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

In article ,
Michael Coslo wrote:

The major downside of all this is that as Emergency ops move toward this
mode, the question arises of why they would be using amateur radio to
perform the function at all - they might as well have their own system
on their own frequencies, that they alone use.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

One of the REAL Reasons that Amateur Radio can play a part in Emergency
Comms, is really very simple, and usually not thought of, in many Govt.
EMS/Enforcment Groups.

What happenes when the Repeaters, and or Remote Bases, are lost due to
Power Loss, FIRE, or EarthQuake, at the High Point Remote Locations that
the EMS/Enforcment System uses, or secondly, what happens when the Telco
Links from the EMS/Enforcment Comms Center fail, due to these same
situations and the CommCenter can work the Repeaters and Remote Bases
via RF Links but can't communicate with the next higher Govt entity?

Cases on Point here. World Trade Center Collapse.

All local South Mannhatten VHF and UHF Remote Base and Repeaters for
New York, as well as most of the other Govt. Frequencies were installed
on Top of the WTC. When it collapsed, they lost 95% of their Repeated,
and Remote Base Comms, and couldn't talk to each other except on one
or two simplex Emergency Backup Freqs, that weren't common to ALL the
EMS People from ALL the Mutual Aid Responders.

LA Fire a couple of years ago.

Again, 90% of the local Camms were taken out when one of the MAIN
Remote Base and Repeater Location up on the Rim of the World Highway
was caught in a Flashover during a major fire. None of the equipment,
that was inside the building was damaged, but ALL the Coax, and most
of the Antennas were destroyed by the heat of the fire, causing these
systems to be OFFLine from that point, untill MONTHS later when the
tower was rebuilt.

Our EMS People depend on their Comms to work, and work reliably, in
oreder to be effective in thier jobs. when these systems fail, they
can still work their individual jobs, but their effectivness as a
EMS System is greatly reduced. A good Emergency Plan, with TRAINED
Volenteers, and Backup Equipment, and Frequencies, can help keep
these EMS folks effective.

How many EMS Systems have a Backup, Mobile, EMS RemoteBase and Repeater
Comm Infostructure, ready to deploy, should the fixed Infostructure
Fail?

Is there an Backup EMS/Enforcment Comms Policy, inplace, that sets the
rules for use of the minimal Simplex Frequencies that will be common
to ALL Mutual Aid Responders, for a given Massive Comms Failure, and who
is in charge of that traffic, and getting the traffic to the right
places.

The Feds have been trying to deal with these senerios since 9/11, and
are just NOW, starting to get a handle on SOME of the problems, and
solutions, that will be involved.

We see the RED Cross, starting to require their volenteers to be
Credentialed. I understand that SOME of the Enforcment folks
are issuing Limited Credentials to Trained Ham Club folks that
they have used before, and incorporate into their Backup Emeregency
Comms Policies and Proceedures.

All this is just for local EMS/Enforcment Comms, but who can provide
the Long Distance Comms, to the higher Govt. Entities, when the longlines
are out. This was a MAJOR problem in the Post Katrina New Orleans
Senerio. The National Guard usually HAS the equuipment, and MAY have
the personnel, but are they ready on a moments notice, or does it take
Days to ManUp and Deploy. Wouldn't it be nice if the Hams via their own
Club System, could have a BackUp Emergency Comms Plan and Policy to
provide such Systems from Local to County, and County to State, should
their be an urgent need, should disaster, of these magnitudes, happen.

Bruce in alaska just one of many, who actually Think about
such stuff......
--
add path before @