Phil Kane wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:51:57 EDT, Steve Bonine wrote:

"I don't
have time to attend your class on emergency communication or participate
in your exercise, but I'll be around when there's a real emergency"

Yes, there's always one more place in what we call the Resource Pool
Net where untrained and un credentialed hams can sit around and wait
to be called - if ever. The days of a random appearance, HT in hand,
are over in this era of Emergency Comm Centers and Incident Command
Systems. They can't even get in the door of the comm centers today,
and there are no resources available to train them to assist properly
during a "real emergency". Knowing how to rag chew or work a contest
doesn't quite cut it.

I think that amateur radio is changing in a way that those rag chewers
and contesters won't be wanted at all.

What I have been seeing recently is that people who are already working
in emergency operations have been getting Technician licenses, and
intend to commandeer repeaters as needed during emergencies.

Even in our area, whole groups of folk have been getting licensed in
this reverse manner. We have ambulance drivers, paramedics, comm center
staff. I suspect in the near far term, we won't be getting in the door
period, unless we become some kind of semi professional unpaid volunteer.

I would surmise that regular hams probably won't need to concern
themselves much longer, as once this happens their services will not be
needed. I think a new class of Ham is inadvertently coming about - that
of the quasi-professional ham - one who is employed in a field that
occasionally calls on them to use their amateur radio license in pursuit
of their work. Note that the FCC has upheld this as legal IIRC.

In some respects, it will be much better for the agencies involved. They
will be able to require things that Hams have balked at, such as
investigation of our lifestyles and financial info. All of this can take
place in the work environment, where it is a condition of employment.
Mandatory training sessions are another item in the same line.

The major downside of all this is that as Emergency ops move toward this
mode, the question arises of why they would be using amateur radio to
perform the function at all - they might as well have their own system
on their own frequencies, that they alone use.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

In article ,
Michael Coslo wrote:

The major downside of all this is that as Emergency ops move toward this
mode, the question arises of why they would be using amateur radio to
perform the function at all - they might as well have their own system
on their own frequencies, that they alone use.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

One of the REAL Reasons that Amateur Radio can play a part in Emergency
Comms, is really very simple, and usually not thought of, in many Govt.
EMS/Enforcment Groups.

What happenes when the Repeaters, and or Remote Bases, are lost due to
Power Loss, FIRE, or EarthQuake, at the High Point Remote Locations that
the EMS/Enforcment System uses, or secondly, what happens when the Telco
Links from the EMS/Enforcment Comms Center fail, due to these same
situations and the CommCenter can work the Repeaters and Remote Bases
via RF Links but can't communicate with the next higher Govt entity?

Cases on Point here. World Trade Center Collapse.

All local South Mannhatten VHF and UHF Remote Base and Repeaters for
New York, as well as most of the other Govt. Frequencies were installed
on Top of the WTC. When it collapsed, they lost 95% of their Repeated,
and Remote Base Comms, and couldn't talk to each other except on one
or two simplex Emergency Backup Freqs, that weren't common to ALL the
EMS People from ALL the Mutual Aid Responders.

LA Fire a couple of years ago.

Again, 90% of the local Camms were taken out when one of the MAIN
Remote Base and Repeater Location up on the Rim of the World Highway
was caught in a Flashover during a major fire. None of the equipment,
that was inside the building was damaged, but ALL the Coax, and most
of the Antennas were destroyed by the heat of the fire, causing these
systems to be OFFLine from that point, untill MONTHS later when the
tower was rebuilt.

Our EMS People depend on their Comms to work, and work reliably, in
oreder to be effective in thier jobs. when these systems fail, they
can still work their individual jobs, but their effectivness as a
EMS System is greatly reduced. A good Emergency Plan, with TRAINED
Volenteers, and Backup Equipment, and Frequencies, can help keep
these EMS folks effective.

How many EMS Systems have a Backup, Mobile, EMS RemoteBase and Repeater
Comm Infostructure, ready to deploy, should the fixed Infostructure
Fail?

Is there an Backup EMS/Enforcment Comms Policy, inplace, that sets the
rules for use of the minimal Simplex Frequencies that will be common
to ALL Mutual Aid Responders, for a given Massive Comms Failure, and who
is in charge of that traffic, and getting the traffic to the right
places.

The Feds have been trying to deal with these senerios since 9/11, and
are just NOW, starting to get a handle on SOME of the problems, and
solutions, that will be involved.

We see the RED Cross, starting to require their volenteers to be
Credentialed. I understand that SOME of the Enforcment folks
are issuing Limited Credentials to Trained Ham Club folks that
they have used before, and incorporate into their Backup Emeregency
Comms Policies and Proceedures.

All this is just for local EMS/Enforcment Comms, but who can provide
the Long Distance Comms, to the higher Govt. Entities, when the longlines
are out. This was a MAJOR problem in the Post Katrina New Orleans
Senerio. The National Guard usually HAS the equuipment, and MAY have
the personnel, but are they ready on a moments notice, or does it take
Days to ManUp and Deploy. Wouldn't it be nice if the Hams via their own
Club System, could have a BackUp Emergency Comms Plan and Policy to
provide such Systems from Local to County, and County to State, should
their be an urgent need, should disaster, of these magnitudes, happen.

Bruce in alaska just one of many, who actually Think about
such stuff......
--
add path before @

Bruce in Alaska wrote:
In article ,
Michael Coslo wrote:

The major downside of all this is that as Emergency ops move toward this
mode, the question arises of why they would be using amateur radio to
perform the function at all - they might as well have their own system
on their own frequencies, that they alone use.

What happenes when the Repeaters, and or Remote Bases, are lost due to
Power Loss, FIRE, or EarthQuake, at the High Point Remote Locations that
the EMS/Enforcment System uses, or secondly, what happens when the Telco
Links from the EMS/Enforcment Comms Center fail, due to these same
situations and the CommCenter can work the Repeaters and Remote Bases
via RF Links but can't communicate with the next higher Govt entity?


There you have it. I would say that those who are running the show are
very VHF/UHF centric. They don't know about long distance radio, except
for perhaps satellite Operations, which are still line of site. Someone
somewhere has to know what bands to use at what time and for what distance.




A bunch of good stuff snipped


The Feds have been trying to deal with these senerios since 9/11, and
are just NOW, starting to get a handle on SOME of the problems, and
solutions, that will be involved.


Your post is pretty accurate, Bruce.


One of the things that I want to add is that while Amateur radio was one
of the few things that worked very well, those who are in command are
bent on turning it into something more like what failed.

I believe that the present day post 911, and even more post Katrina
emphasis on emcomm Amateur radio is imposing a structure upon those Hams
who would volunteer their time, when in fact, what has allowed Ham radio
to work in emergencies is that very lack of structure among
knowledgeable Hams who in a random fashion come forth and offer their
services and know-how to the problem at hand.

I believe that imposing a structure on the ARS, and bringing it into the
fold, so to speak, will increase the chances that Amateur radio will be
the one to fail along with other parts of the emergency operations.

As we are called upon to have our backgrounds checked, our lifestyle and
financial dealings investigated, and resign ourselves to hauling out the
trash or unloading trucks, there will be less of us willing to spend our
vacation time or even simply lose money to offer our services.

At that time, most of what will be left is those quasi-professional
technicians who are licensed to talk, but know precious little else
about how to make sure the comms continue. Then comes failure.

It's a real problem, because those who make the decisions can only see
solutions as application of structure, and if there is a problem, the
answer must be more structure. Its like the old saying "If your tool is
a hammer, all problems look like nails."

This is a very controversial position for sure, as witnessed by local
Emergency people's reaction when I bring it up. My only suggestion is
for people to look at what causes failure, and correct it. Some times
what seems like a good idea is what causes failure. If that is the case,
no application of more of that "good idea" will create success.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:49:38 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:

There you have it. I would say that those who are running the show are
very VHF/UHF centric. They don't know about long distance radio, except
for perhaps satellite Operations, which are still line of site. Someone
somewhere has to know what bands to use at what time and for what distance.

Most, if not all, of our served agencies have or are getting HF
transceivers for "long distance" communication. If the repeater
and/or packet relays go down, that's what we have to use to connect to
state and regional EOCs, usually by NVIS facilities. Most of our
leadership have those in their home stations as well. Some of us are
looking into automatic interchange between VHF to HF for digital
traffic. We aren't content with a "shack on the belt" approach.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

Phil Kane wrote in
:

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:49:38 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:

There you have it. I would say that those who are running the
show are
very VHF/UHF centric. They don't know about long distance radio,
except for perhaps satellite Operations, which are still line of site.
Someone somewhere has to know what bands to use at what time and for
what distance.

Most, if not all, of our served agencies have or are getting HF
transceivers for "long distance" communication. If the repeater
and/or packet relays go down, that's what we have to use to connect to
state and regional EOCs, usually by NVIS facilities. Most of our
leadership have those in their home stations as well. Some of us are
looking into automatic interchange between VHF to HF for digital
traffic. We aren't content with a "shack on the belt" approach.

Perhaps your local setup is doing well, Phil, I can only see what is
happening locally, and what I get from the news.

I suspect they have some good people running the show there?\

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

On Oct 30, 4:49?am, Michael Coslo wrote:
Bruce in Alaska wrote:
In article ,
Michael Coslo wrote:

It's a real problem, because those who make the decisions can only see
solutions as application of structure, and if there is a problem, the
answer must be more structure. Its like the old saying "If your tool is
a hammer, all problems look like nails."

If all you have is a nail-puller, your structure won't hold
together...

AF6AY

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:21:40 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:

What I have been seeing recently is that people who are already working
in emergency operations have been getting Technician licenses, and
intend to commandeer repeaters as needed during emergencies.

Our district-wide ARES/RACES groups have several repeaters licensed to
members so no "commandeering" is necessary. In addition, we routinely
test simplex paths between our served agencies in case repeaters go
down for any reason.

Even in our area, whole groups of folk have been getting licensed in
this reverse manner. We have ambulance drivers, paramedics, comm center
staff. I suspect in the near far term, we won't be getting in the door period,
unless we become some kind of semi professional unpaid volunteer.

We've kicked this around too. All of our active members have been
"vetted" by the state police for RACES ID cards and most of us carry
Sheriff's Office entry passes (picture ID, not law enforcement officer
credentials) that are necessary to get into facilities where the SO
provides security.

We've also kicked around the situation where in our hospital we have
to go through the Emergency Room entry area to reach the EOC, and the
ER docs and nurses are empowered that if during an emergency/lockdown
they see anyone in the ER whom they do not recognize they are to have
security detain them for interrogation. For that reason those of us
who serve hospitals also have hospital picture IDs issued by the
security department.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

I think a new class of Ham is inadvertently coming about - that
of the quasi-professional ham - one who is employed in a field that
occasionally calls on them to use their amateur radio license in pursuit
of their work. Note that the FCC has upheld this as legal IIRC.

Most, if not all of our served agencies have ruled that in a "real"
emergency, the employee does his or her regular job, not serve as part
of the Amateur Radio teams. We have MOUs with the served agencies
that we will provide the necessary comms if their regular comms become
unavailable.

The only exception is with the HEARTNET role as the secondary backup
for the inter-hospital ER status and reporting system carried on 800
MHz with a primary backup of 155 MHz, and if both of those
"commercial" services go down, the 146 MHz simplex net is used by ER
personnel who are licensed hams. We have no problem with that because
the traffic that would be handled is very medical-specific and
decisions have to be made "on the fly" over the radio, and it's better
to have the RNs do it than to have to pass messages through
non-medical personnel.

The major downside of all this is that as Emergency ops move toward this
mode, the question arises of why they would be using amateur radio to
perform the function at all - they might as well have their own system
on their own frequencies, that they alone use.

And they do. We are the "whenever all fails, we are still there." And
the "modern" 800 MHz systems are virtually useless when things get hot
because of either system hardware failure or priority public safety
traffic making the system unavailable to "lower on the ladder" users.

A very small payback for the privilege of using the spectrum that we
get.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net